New power wheelchair questions - Permobil

[garriew]

Currently I have an Invacare StormTDX3 and am in the process of getting a new powerchair. I am looking at the Permobil C500 (if its' a group 3 + my rep is suggesting a m300) and was wondering a few things.

My Storm has been a good chair, for the most part, but since it's a mid-wheel, it "teeters" going over thresh-holds and the back goes down when going up a hill. These are two of the reasons I am considering a front wheel. The other being they are suppose to be better outside.

I am also considering upgrading the motors to the 7.5mph but have worried about "fish tailing" being an issue at the higher speeds.

My medical supply company is a small mom & pop in our town and the prices they quoted me for items insurance wont pay for (lights, elevator, high speed motors) seem to be pretty high. I looked and they quoted the prices from Permobil price sheets. MSRP

7.5 mph high speed upgrade package - M300 $2491.00
LED light kit for M300 - $1045.00
Power adjustable seat height, 8" travel - $2693.00

The prices seem high to me and insurance wont cover those three. Is it standard to charge MSRP?

I'd like to see what other peoples experiences are with the front wheel, speeds and costs. Maybe even places to order some of the uncovered items. Should I get Group 24 batteries? It takes 24 & 34. Ask for a specific brand/model?

On the 300 series chairs the range is listed at 13mph which seems really short to me.

MTIA

Garrie

[Burgerman]

M300 is mid drive?

As far as I can see. You will only get small batteries with a seat lift. That extra space is used up.

That means your range is shorter. And high speed motors use more power all the time. Even going slow or turning. So that's why it needs the 120 Amp R-net controller to get decent torque when using faster taller geared motors. And these two things combined are why range suffers. Lead batteries are simply crap. The best batteries if you want torque and best range, in group 34 size are PC1500 Odyssey. Gel or any other battery don't come close.

As for front drive, yes, they ALL steer and handle horribly. You cannot defeat physics. Made worse by the crappy programming, so that where you actually go isn't really down to the diver! Front drive does curbs well, everything else much worse unless you go very slowly.

As for prices I have no idea other than its all madly over inflated... And in the UK you can easily get a third off, or more. But US powerchair pricing is CRAZY!

[Sully]

Yes, the pricing is crazy as well as any ancillary equipment necessary for those needing such equipment. That is because the Govt. health insurance of all kinds, has over the years accepted this rediculous pricing. Rather than demanding more and better quality, the beaureaucracies have accepted less quality to suit the cost benefit ratios.

In my lifetime I have seen everything being sold advanced by 4 to 5 times selling price. (400/500%) Wages have been slow to keep up, if at all. Corporate Profit ratio's have skyrocketed. Corporate cash on hand is at all time highs, with little or no investment in their own infrastructure. SAD what the greed of the most of 1% can do.

>>>I think if you look to the scissor lift for your seating, you will find more room for your larger batteries.

[garriew]

M300 is mid drive?As far as I can see. You will only get small batteries with a seat lift. That extra space is used up.

I didn't think about that so I emailed Permobil and they said that I could use 24 or 34 group batteries. I then looked in the manual and it seems their is a space between the batteries. If it is actually true it's a waste of space. None the less, would the 24 group ones be the best option if available? I will get gel because I can't maintain them myself.

Here is a diagram of the seat install:

Permobil M300

permobil m300.PNG (85.65 KiB) Viewed 5179 times

As for front drive, yes, they ALL steer and handle horribly. You cannot defeat physics. Made worse by the crappy programming, so that where you actually go isn't really down to the diver! Front drive does curbs well, everything else much worse unless you go very slowly.

That's what I was thinking. I will more than likely get the mid-wheel and skip the high speed motors. It goes 6mph w/out them.

Maybe one day I can build my own rear-wheel. Since I'm 5'ish and way under 110 I could probably make a pretty small, powerful one?

I think if you look to the scissor lift for your seating, you will find more room for your larger batteries.

The only scissor one I could find are from falconrehab.net and they want over 4k for theirs. At least that's what their site says. It has broken links and such so I'm sure it's very outdated.

I would love a scissor lift though beause they go so much higher.

As for the MSRP prices, I guess I am going to take bids and see what I can order and have them shipped for. A company in Cali said they would sell the light kit for around 750. Surely any decent mechanic can install parts. I hate to have my DME dealer do all this work but I also don't want to spend 6k.

Thanks,
Garrie

[Burgerman]

I will get gel because I can't maintain them myself.

MK gel is your only gel option as others are a waste of time. They are either too high resistance, or low quality and don't last.

Almost every AGM option is cheaper and very common. And are also pretty crap. Odyssey batteries are the odd one out, they are AGM and high quality. In real world use they perform better than group 24 batteries do, and last just as long. And they are group 34 batteries.

ALL of the above and all wheelchair batteries are sealed and need no maintenance regardless. If going for the MK GEL batteries, then get group 24.

[motoman]

I've got an M300 with elevate. You can indeed get group 24's with the seat elevator, so no problem there.
I will say the light kit is way over priced but they work excellent, are perfectly integrated and are very bright. I got mine for cheap but if you poke around the web they can be had cheaper.
If your paying out of pocket and paying cash for non covered items they should give you about a 30% discount for paying cash.
I was worried about torque issues with the high speed motors so I did not get them. Now I wish I would have as the standard motors have torque to burn compared to my old 6000Z.
I've had my M300 for a year now and it has been excellent.

Edit to add: As far as range goes, on fairly level paved ground you could likely go 18 or more miles on a charge with good batteries. Several days over summer I put 13 miles on several days in a row and I was down about 4 bars each day.

[motoman]

One more thing regarding lights. Order the chair with the joystick that has the light switches on it even if you don't get lights. Then it will come with the lighting module installed as this is a no charge item, then you can add them later.

[garriew]

Thanks for the help, guys.

[sacharlie]

Dealer cost vs MSRP is pretty high. I did a search on some Pride part #s and found some pages that showed the MSRP was 2.5 times the dealer cost pretty much on all the parts listed.

[garriew]

Yeah, I figured it had a high markup. I'm ordering in January, waiting for new insurance year since I never met my deductible this year. I think I can talk them down once they know I am price shopping.