Permobil C350 vs Quantum Rival vs Handicare Puma?

[Amadeus]

Hello Friends,

In my quest for replacing my Permobil Street which has served me remarkably well for almost 7 years (unfortunately a discontinued product by now as many other good things in our world), I was looking at and I even tested last december the following rear drive pwchairs: Permobil C350, Quantum Rival and Handicare Puma. There are pros and cons on each of them, here you have my very subjective experience about them and I invite anyone to share thoughts around them, if case, which it would help me to make a final decision. My Permobil Street was set for someone with SMA, male, 6ft tall, active user, Corpus seat with Tilt (45 degree), 23.5’’ wide, 43’’ long (with centered footplate expanded) and 21’’ height (ground to the seat pan), group 24 battery – gel, Pilot+ controller, maximum of 7.5 mph speed, rear light kit, flat tires all, headrest.

Permobil C350

It came with: black low base (group 34 battery), maximum of 6 mph, small front shock absorber, standard R-Net controller, Swing-Away Joystick Arm Kit, PS seat system with no tilt or powered features, Dual post Flip Back Arm Rest, centered adjustable two pieces rigging, 14’’ drive tires and 8’’ casters (all air filled). I tested the chair only indoor.

My impressions. The chair runs nicely and the controller provides good response but the chair is slow overall, I couldn’t squeeze more than 5.8 mph from it. At the same speed, the other trial chairs performed much better. Some metal part was exceeding the width of the chair so I couldn’t go through my washroom door that is 26’’ wide. The base is low, so a tall person would need to adjust the seat system in order to achieve a decent height range for the rigging. I was not able to locate any external switch to connect/disconnect the controller from the battery, a feature nice to have if someone travels with airplanes. The dual post armrests tend to shiver.

The brake release requires two operations with the hook: moving forward and then left. The hook for brake release is located on the left of the base and it can easily be confused with an anchor point. So, it exhibits the potential to be damaged easily. This seems to be an unnecessarily and complicated solution compared to the Street where a simple handle that swings right to the left and reverse can put the motors on and off. The front anchor hooks are inbound designed. As Street as well, none of the securement points are designed to secure the pwchair with the user sitting on top while using it on public transportation. Overall, the Permobil C350 seems to be a good chair for indoor use but definitely a downgrade version of the Street for outdoor use.

Quantum Rival

It came with: black base (low, 24 group battery), 7.5 mph, heavy duty springs, Q-Logic 2 EX Joystick, Swing-Away Joystick Arm Kit, TBR 3 seat system with power Tilt, Dual post Flip Back Arm Rest, no Led Light Package, Centermount Adjustable (Manual) Foot Platform (two pieces), 14’’ drive tires and 9’’casters (all air filled), overall size 25’’wide, 47’’ long (with the footplate expanded) and 16.5’’ height (ground to the seat pan), headrest.

My impressions. Right from the first appearance the Quantum Rival tends to be longer and lower than it should be. As it was set and provided, it came with problems in regards to turnings indoor, into my minivan and into the public busses. I suspect this can be corrected with a shorter chassis or by rising up and moving backward the all seat system. The dual post armrest makes the seat wider than necessary; my elbows were constantly recalling a closer surface to mind the gap between my trunk and the arm pads. Perhaps reversing the position of the arm pads can be considered or perhaps a different armrest system compatible with the TBR3 is a better solution.

I have noticed other things. A sound like a click or snap came from the right side of the chair when making turns. With my Street, this would have been a sign of a ball bearing shortage but it could be other things. It is definitely different then the sound made by the motors when engaging. Also, when chair is not moving, I can swing a bit forward and backward on my seat with accent on the right side. This suggests that something is loose under the right drive wheel even when sits still. For a new brand power chair, these are a bit of strange.

QRival satisfies the speed they advertise but programming is a must right from the moment someone sat on the chair. Without it, the chair is a wild beast. The controller comes with 4 speed presets. I had to make changes in many ways: turning speed, acceleration and deceleration, the chair was giving the feeling of low sensitivity in terms of command and response. Progressive speed through joystick is something that personally I never saw in a power chair but QRival has it. The same feature is implemented within the tilt system: the user can control the speed of ascending/descending. The Q-Logic 2 is nice and complex but I noticed ergonomic challenges on it: buttons hard to activate while the joystick is against them, the switch on/off requires some force to play with so I think users with limited hand/palm/finger movements will have problems in this matter. The cables and the controller come as one piece and again, no external switch to control the power flow were designed with this chair.

The power tilt works nicely and it flips back around 50 degree. I would be really interested to see what happens with the tilt when the entire seat system is moved back because, I suspect the way how they set the seat (too low and too forward) may be connected to some limitations of the tilt.

The brake release works independently for each motor and it can be engaged/disengaged easily by foot on the backside of the chair. In terms of anchorage, the base comes with hooks for traveling without the user. For the situation when the user sits on the chair on public transportation, metal hooks can be installed on the seat.

Overall, the QRival is a beautiful and sturdy chair, well suited for outdoor rather than indoor. Its base resembles a bit the one of Alex from Handicare but having the chance to try the Handicare Puma which is the heritor of Alex, I think the base of QRival is much better designed and in fact it resembles more the Permobil Street. Alex and Puma continue to exhibit inbound casters while QRival not. But those square-arch casters and the speed get Alex and QRival closer. The big question is how much quality Quantum put into the materials that make the chair as well how much modularity and adjustability the QRival can provide.

Handicare Puma

It came with: white base (34 group battery), maximum 6 mph, rear springs, R-Net controler, Retract Swing-Away Joystick Arm Kit, SEDEO Pro seat system with power Tilt (45 degree), Flip Back Arm Rest, no Led Light Package, Centermount Adjustable (Manual) Foot Platform (one piece), 14’’ drive tires and 10’’casters (all air filled), overall size 25’’wide, 47’’ long (with the footplate expanded) and 16.5’’ height (ground to the seat pan), headrest.

My impressions. My first reaction was “wow, what a tall chair and what a beautiful seat!” The seat was looking high and rather set backward over the base, in the same style as the Permobil Street. I knew instantly that this chair could make tight turns. The arm rests were easily to set at the width I needed. I set the backrest as well and I was amazed how much modularity the Sedeo seat system can provide. The chair was running smoothly and nicely indoor even though the casters are big (size 10’’). Definitely, this is not a friendly carpet chair. I jumped in the chair and moved a bit on the hallways of my building. For whatever reason, same speed as I experienced with the Permobil C350 seemed to me now a bit higher. I switched Puma outdoor and it was running nicely too until I tried to make few tight turns: the rear wheels were skidding here and there depending on the direction I was taking. This made me thinking that the chair could slide on inclined terrain but it didn’t do that on inclined pavements. It is winter here now but it would have been helpful to test the chair on some hills around. Anyhow, I suspect the skidding can be from the fact that casters are inbound designed. The suspensions did their job and aside some noises here and there after getting the chair outdoor, Puma did a pretty good job. Indoor, I discovered that the most extreme points of this chair are the rear wheels: I can get in the washroom rubbing the door’s frame but to get out was even more difficult. The one-piece footplate is a bit wide than needed but it meets its purpose of design. The anchorage points for public transportation seem to be problematic as well with this chair. The current ones are not designed to carry the chair with a person on top of it so I am curious if Handicare can provide alternative anchorage points. The motors can be put independently on the manual mode by turning a switch from each side.

The power tilt is decent, working at a standard speed and not having speed inhibitor as I noticed with the Quantum Rival or Permobil Street. The seat is really confortable and the headrest was simply excellent, molding my head more naturally. A nice surprise were the two external switches to connect/disconnect the controller from the battery unit. One is located under the controller and the other is somewhere close to the tilt system.

Overall, Puma is impressive on its simplicity and immediate performance. The big question resides also in the quality of the materials invested in it by Handicare. Here in Canada, there is not much history or documentation of their products in relation to their clients. There is a vet online owing an Alex chair from Handicare, by his name Daniel T Towsey. He provides nasty reports about his Alex chairs, enough to make people thinking carefully when choosing Handicare products.

Other than these chairs, there are not many options to consider further: Otto Bock doesn’t sell yet chairs in Canada, the Invacare seems to be on downhill for a while, and the only chairs available to me here I didn’t try yet are Alex from Handicare and Quickie S-636. Personally, I became passionate with Permobil after having the Street but what Permobil can provide under the category 'rear drive power chairs' is really disappointing at the moment. Hopefully, the situation will get better, good chairs are always needed by people.

Many thanks in advance,
amadeus

[Burgerman]

Its hard to reply because almost all rear drive or mid drive powerchairs are much of a much-ness. They all use basically the same wheels and tyres, motor options, and controllers. And are adjustable with most of the said parts both programmable and with choices in options.

So unless you test all with the same options, batteries, controllers, speed options, tyre size and types, and seating position and programming then its pretty much impossible to split them all apart. Remember that all these companies basically use the same bunch of suppliers for the majority of the complex bits, and the powerchair company make just a few plastic covers, arms, possibly seating but this is often bought it and multiple choice too, and all the rest is universal industry suppliers like www.pgdt.com AMT, EMD, or Electrocraft motors, etc. They do the same with wheels, tyres, suspension, looms, armrests tops, etc etc.

I would choose based on this - in this order:

1. Biggest amp controller (R-net 120A or Dynamics DX2 120A) and avoid lower power controllers. And only if you can get an OEM level programmer for it.
Relying on the dealer to program it is normally never going to work out for a bunch of reasons. And your settings will change over time as you figure out what works best. If you cannot get an OEM programmer, go with a slightly lower power controller that you CAN get one for. For eg its easy to get a VR2 90A programmer and cable on this forum amongst others. It also rules out anything with a Curtis built Pride quantum controller. As these are kept under lock and key...

2. Battery size... The weakest part of any powerchair. Grp 24 (70Ah good. Often this is reduced to grp 34 or 60Ah on some seating options on some makes. That's bad... Or worse yet smaller the small 22nf size. This matters not only because of reduced range but also reduced torque and control due to higher battery resistance / peukert affect, and shorter service life because of greater average DOD.

3. 4 pole motors. Of a SUITABLE speed. That depends on contrary factors. The faster the chair is (say 8.5MPH) the less torque and the shorter service life of the batteries and the least range, even if traveling slowly. The 5mph chairs with 4 pole motors, offer best range, best service life and greatest torque level if batteries and controller are equal. Generally a 6mph chair offers the large human the best compromise. Go wth faster if you are light, or accept a lower level of torque and range/control.

4. Wheel and tyres. Rear tyres are universally 300 x 8 (14 inch) but casters can be small (better indoors - more compact) or large (better outdoors - smoother) And on many chairs an option... Choose wisely. I use 10 inch ones...

5. C of G or more correctly Centre of Mass. On all commercial chairs this is way too far forwards impacting indoor manoeuvrability (oil tanker syndrome!) and loads casters too heavily. Be careful of this and find one that allows it to either start off better or to be moved.

6. Anything else that is important too you.

[Amadeus]

Dear Burgerman,

Thank you for your thoughts and suggestions.

Overall, I agree with them. I was aware about some of them and definitely there is place to learn more.

From your perspective and based on the rules you underlined, which commercial chair is closer to them?

If all powerchair companies play the same game based on the share of same suppliers and other things, I may presume that they all put in place uniform quality. Just from this perspective, choosing a pwchair becomes a very subjective endeavor and the difference is perhaps made by the capacity of customization of a chair, good servicing and the context where the user involves the chair.

Now, because we are talking about subjective choices, aside the basic rules you mentioned, from this site I may only expect to identify insightful patterns from people sharing their subjective experiences about similar or different yet complementary powerchairs.

Back the to basic rules you stated. It would be helpful to me to find a comparison between R-Net Controllers and Q-Logic 2 EX. I like the complexity of Q-Logic but I appreciate the good response of the R-Nets. I keep the idea of having my own OEM programmer. Actually, I do have a programmer for a Bounder pwchair but I am not sure if I can use it with other chairs. In terms of motors, I was hoping to find a difference in quality and reliability between brands. I understand it is difficult to make such suggestions. I am not a big fan of high speed and definitely I can survive with 6 mph. But in the same time I like to have available some extra power for emergency situations (like running to catch a bus or a cab or to drop off/pick up kids or things last minute). Now, if running with flat tires, the speed decreases with 10% if I recall correctly some previous info provided by Bounder. Air filled tires definitely give a better ride and much speed but when they get pin, a lot of prayers are required…. That’s why I prefer flat tires. I like too the 10’’ casters and I see what difference they make with the Puma.

Any case, the ideal/reliable chair to me would be one that provides uniform performance on different environments, 24/7, and requires limited service in a fairly large period of time.

I keep an eye open on any feedback around the chairs I tried. It is about a choice I need to make between Permobil C350, Quantum Rival and Handicare Puma.

Here is an image to have an idea how I fit on the QRival and the Handicare Puma.



Many thanks.

[garriew]

The Puma looks better than the Rival. The Rival looks like you are in a mid wheel.

Which one did you sit better in?

[rover220]

Is the puma 40 s line available in you location?

[LROBBINS]

That Rival looks like it has the seat way too far forward. With so much weight on the casters it will be impossible to steer well. If you are still considering it, perhaps you can trial it again with the seat moved much further back.
Ciao,
Lenny

[greybeard]

I own a Puma 40 that was rear drive when I bought it. I find it to be well made and comfortable. I like the degree of easy adjustability, including COG. However, my house is tight for space and the rear drive made it difficult to cope with some of the tight turns. This was made worse by bad programming, but mainly because of the forward position of the inboard casters and the need to have the foot plate forward of them. This is not too apparent from your photo because the COG appears to be set towards the front ( not as badly as the other chair). The seat will slide back to get your weight more over the drive wheels.

In the end I reversed the seat to make it front drive ( only four bolts) and it now steers much better. Because my weight is over the drive wheels, traction and steering are very positive, but it did take a bit of re-programming to achieve this. There is a program option for front or rear drive so the change over was painless. I had to borrow a R-Net OEM dongle for this. You have to be aware, and allow for the casters sticking out the back. So far it has coped well with daily dog walking forays,

My only complaint is the low ground clearance. The controller and battery cover have 'pinged' off when mats have occasionally been rucked up under the chair. I had to resort to epoxy glue to repair a crack on the controller cover. Both cover attachments are IMO, badly designed. I doubt it would cope well with off-road without one or other of them coming adrift, although the large wheels and ample torque would pull the chair over most rough stuff, I believe.

If you get the lighting option, be sure to get the frame mounts for the front lights. Otherwise they will be mounted on the armrest pillars and can easily hit door frames. Another epoxy job for me!

[Burgerman]

That Rival looks like it has the seat way too far forward. With so much weight on the casters it will be impossible to steer well. If you are still considering it, perhaps you can trial it again with the seat moved much further back.
Ciao,
Lenny

As above. But I wouldn't consider that control system.

[Amadeus]

The Puma looks better than the Rival. The Rival looks like you are in a mid wheel.

Which one did you sit better in?

Indeed, Puma looks nice but in terms of sitting they both are alike. The problem was manoeuvrability on tight space with the Rival having set the seat too low and forward. Thanks.

[Amadeus]

Is the puma 40 s line available in you location?

At this point no but probably it would worth to wait for. Handicare provides for the Toronto area the following models: Alex, Puma 20, Puma 40 and Puma 40L. Thanks.

[Amadeus]

That Rival looks like it has the seat way too far forward. With so much weight on the casters it will be impossible to steer well. If you are still considering it, perhaps you can trial it again with the seat moved much further back.
Ciao,
Lenny

Indeed, the casters with Puma 40 were running really smooth comparing to Rival as it was set. I hope to be able to get the Rival in trial again with improved seat settings. Thanks.

[Amadeus]

I own a Puma 40 that was rear drive when I bought it.

How long have been using it?

I find it to be well made and comfortable. I like the degree of easy adjustability, including COG. However, my house is tight for space and the rear drive made it difficult to cope with some of the tight turns. This was made worse by bad programming, but mainly because of the forward position of the inboard casters and the need to have the foot plate forward of them. This is not too apparent from your photo because the COG appears to be set towards the front ( not as badly as the other chair). The seat will slide back to get your weight more over the drive wheels.

Yes, it seemed comfortable to me too. I had problems to fit with some door frames because of the rear tires but not any problems to make turns in tight space. However, as you suggest, I suspect the seat with Puma could be set even more backward, this would probably fix the skidding episodes that I experienced outdoor with the rear tires, but I am not sure if it would remain much adjustability for the footplate. What concerns me the most are the inbound way how casters are designed to run. I wonder if this put as well to much pressure on the casters.

Many thanks for your input!

[Amadeus]

As above. But I wouldn't consider that control system.

It makes alot of sense. I hope Quantum can provide R-Net controllers for their chairs. I suspect I need to justify such choice. Thanks Burgerman.

[Burgerman]

I think only in UK but probably not the best choice anyway.

[greybeard]

> How long have you been using it?

Only since mid October 14.

[Amadeus]

Dear Burgerman,

Some of your past postings suggests a sympathy for the Alex pwchair. Is this of actuality? And regardless the answer, between Alex and Puma, which one would you pick up? And who would be the "winner" between them and the Rival?

I doubt the Q-Logic 2 controller goes beyond 100Amp which makes R-Nets a better candidate. All R-Nets come with 120Amp? What worries me a bit about the R-Nets is the limited number of presets they include. Actually, I saw only two presets with them: indoor and outdoor. Usually the outdoor doubles the indoor's parameters.

Thank you.

[greybeard]

If you go for R-Net it can be programmed to any presets, but only with an OEM dongle. As far as I know they are only sold by a supplier in the Far East for around GB£500. The manufacturer will not sell OEM to the public or even dealers, only chair producers. However at least one forum member in the UK owns one. There may be others nearer to you. I've also seen them for hire on the internet, deposit up front, on a daily rate.

[rover220]

The dealer level dongle can change most of the driving parameters and the number of presets etc.

[Burgerman]

I doubt the Q-Logic 2 controller goes beyond 100Amp which makes R-Nets a better candidate. All R-Nets come with 120Amp? What worries me a bit about the R-Nets is the limited number of pre-sets they include

There are several cheaper weedy R nets.

The 120A R-net is really just a 100 like pilot plus etc with a 20A boost for a few secs.

Once programmed correctly I doubt that you will ever use any pre-sets. I use the same speeds/etc and only have 1 setting indoors and out regardless.

[Amadeus]

About Puma 40. Does anybody know what Full Track Suspension System (FTSS) is and how this compare to coil metal springs?