Rnet Settings issue - Volts etc

[expresso]

I started to use my 646 and needed some changes to my programming - i feel i have two issues - maybe not be an issue but something is strange and i cant figure it out -

First - i made adjustments to my setting i use - and i copied BM settings that he posted somewhere as a base line - in another profile - i named it Bm - i didnt copy all of them same as i know they wont work for me the way it works for him - but i wanted to try it -

so i go ahead change the settings - profile name etc, - and write to my chair - i went out - etc, i used only my profile - when i scrolled the profiles to Bm settings - it dosnt show Bm - the name i changed it to - so i figure let me see maybe the name didnt take - i used it and no its not the same profile.

now i am home charging - i checked the file i used - and it shows Bm and the settings - but my chair dosnt show it and it didnt take - but yet my settings feel as if it did take - i noticed a difference from the changes i made - unless its in my head -

either way now - i feel something is up - and not sure what - i will try it again after i charge - i will connect and read from chair first - to see if matches the file i wrote to it before. if it dosnt - what can be wrong ?

2. in programming - i changed the volts to 24v - i had it at 24.5v - OK now this may sound strange but i noticed this before and never said anything BUT - the chair feels better at 24v even faster - i cant explain it or why it would -

not sure what to think of that - only one thing i can think of - is going over makes them over heat or work the PM harder in turn making it throttle back ? i know i can adjust that to raise the limit before it does that but i dont feel its needed -

what to make of that ? any logical explanations - i know mines dosnt sound logical -

[Burgerman]

in another profile - i named it Bm - i didnt copy all of them same as i know they wont work for me the way it works for him - but i wanted to try it -

If you dont change ALL - they are a fine tuned bunch of settings that are all related and work together - then it wont work properly. So you are wasting your time! Be brave, do a absolute clone of my settings. And test !!! You mean these: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/program ... ions.R-net

so i go ahead change the settings - profile name etc, - and write to my chair - i went out - etc, i used only my profile - when i scrolled the profiles to Bm settings - it dosnt show Bm - the name i changed it to - so i figure let me see maybe the name didnt take - i used it and no its not the same profile.

now i am home charging - i checked the file i used - and it shows Bm and the settings - but my chair dosnt show it and it didnt take - but yet my settings feel as if it did take - i noticed a difference from the changes i made - unless its in my head -

either way now - i feel something is up - and not sure what - i will try it again after i charge - i will connect and read from chair first - to see if matches the file i wrote to it before. if it dosnt - what can be wrong ?

No idea. Its hard for anything to be wrong as such. Maybe you pressed a wrong button.

2. in programming - i changed the volts to 24v - i had it at 24.5v - OK now this may sound strange but i noticed this before and never said anything BUT - the chair feels better at 24v even faster - i cant explain it or why it would -

not sure what to think of that - only one thing i can think of - is going over makes them over heat or work the PM harder in turn making it throttle back ? i know i can adjust that to raise the limit before it does that but i dont feel its needed -

what to make of that ? any logical explanations - i know mines dosnt sound logical -

Thats not possible. Its all in your head. 24.5V will be faster, by only 2% compared to 24V but only if the battery voltage actually is 24.5 or greater. It might feel more "woolly" at full speed as you steer, Less responsive to the joysick and it may slow slightly more on a hill. And go faster DOWNHILL when set to 24.5. But it cannot be slower in straight line.

[expresso]

i will try to write to my chair again after i finish charging - its not about being brave - its about what i can handle as opposed to what you or others can - i am fine tuning my profile i use - i had to tone down my turning speed - too snappy and its very low number compared to yours so not sure what the deal is - i know my condition has a role in it also - but i no longer want it to be too snappy on turning - enough but not too much - i did my front drive settings to 10 - you have yours on 30 - it helps to keep it straight - i actually had mines on 2 - today it was 5 - felt fine - i changed it to 10 just to see next time i use it.

i toned down my deceleration also - and slowed down my forward acceleration - the chair is easy to wheelie - and i dont want to wheelie everytime i want move forward - having the larger rear wheels and an ADD ON - dosnt help in that dept. - i want a decent take off without lifting the front end each time - it still does it depending on the road curb cuts etc, but not every time i want to move forward - if the it was stock - stock tires etc, - i could raise the take off speed - it wont wheelie as much - plus with the larger rear tires - lifted my chair and my anti tippers are high off the ground compared to a stock chair - i had them lift them when i got it - then the tire change lifted it even more - dosnt help but cant have them on the group - i need at least an inch off the ground. i may have a bit more than that now.

i have the other profiles for that . my age is catching up also - i changed out my seat back to a deep back matrix and feels much better - has support for my truck area but still leaves my arms free and dont feel stuck in there -

[expresso]

the settings i copied are not those BM - you posted a few pics on the other section dont remember where now - i just copied some of it and changed the ones i know works better for me - so its not the same but just to see - if i feel good - i can move closer to the same settings minus the turning and few others

[expresso]

i tried to write again to Rnet with the file and it worked this time - who knows what i did before - next time i use it - can report back

i left it at 24v - for what ever reason - feels good there - either it wasnt connected good enough before -

[Burgerman]

Use THESE settings on a new profile.
And they will work way better than the previous estimated ones. These are what I would recommend for my grandma. If you want, reduce forward acceleration. Change nothing else!!! Unless its too jerky. Then reduce TORQUE to 0. And increase in small amounts as needed. Your MOTOR COMPENSATION must be set to 45 or 50 to use this profile with Linix 4 pole motors or AMT motors.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/program ... ions.R-net

[expresso]

will do next time i use the chair - or before i use it and add them - but my motor comp. is 30 - its the way it arrived - 4 pole sunrise motors linx - if i can just change it for that one profile would be good - dont think i can -

looking at it - its bascially what i did already - i used 50 instead of 70 on yours - lower turning speed and lower take off speed - torque is lower also - i find it smoother this way when moving slowly -

you have remember also - the setup of my chair and the fact that i am about what 8 stone - what ever that is - 165lbs - and your more AB than others i believe upper body etc, makes a difference -

will try it out during this week - today is bounder day new camera also - testing it out -

[Burgerman]

will do next time i use the chair - or before i use it and add them - but my motor comp. is 30 - its the way it arrived - 4 pole sunrise motors linx - if i can just change it for that one profile would be good - dont think i can -

Yep you can. But you need to go to motor/profiled and change 100% to a higher figure. Setting that to 150% would be the same as 45Mohm. Set it to 135%. And test with care. If it runs away then pull the cable out! Or hit the off switch. It wont though.

Those motors are supposed to be set to 45mOhm - at least all the ones I see here are.
If I am wrong test it at 30mOhm but it may steer badly.

[wheelie junkie]

I created different profiles with torque and load compensation factor varying on each one. I could test, switch profiles and test again. I found this to be the best method to allow me to feel the difference. Load compensation was set to 55 but I use a factor of 80% so close to 45 as per BM's advice.

[Burgerman]

What motors?

[wheelie junkie]

Linix 4 pole, 6mph you explain enough times that they all use the same components

[Burgerman]

Yes so yours, mine, and the quicke ones expresso has are all basically the same. So 40 to 45 is correct. I am fat, mines set to 50. I like instant get up and go. More importantly I like it to turn by the exact same amount I add via the joystick, regardless of speed. carpets, Or which way a caster happens to be facing. Set correctly it goes where YOU tell it, not where a caster wants it to go.

[wheelie junkie]

Using load compensation factor you can have it different for different driving, balancing torque and load compensation I can have smooth control or increasing them more jerky but more reactive. I'm still working on balancing it with turn speed to get really smooth turning and to react quickly, I use very slow turn speed and a couple of % makes a big difference.

How my chin control mounts makes a difference, one system has slightly more flex and isn't as good so solid mounting should be the start point, wish that I could get my neck mount more firmly fixed.

[expresso]

Yes so yours, mine, and the quicke ones expresso has are all basically the same. So 40 to 45 is correct. I am fat, mines set to 50. I like instant get up and go. More importantly I like it to turn by the exact same amount I add via the joystick, regardless of speed. carpets, Or which way a caster happens to be facing. Set correctly it goes where YOU tell it, not where a caster wants it to go.

My chair came stock at 30 - seems fine to me - the pilot plus chair had to be adjusted it was set too 55 - stock - i got it down to 40 much better - next time i may try 35 and see - i think my goal now - is just to have control

[Burgerman]

Well its wrong at 30...

[expresso]

Well its wrong at 30...

For who ? i dont see how it can be decided whats right or wrong - i mean on my pilot chair - it was at 55 stock and before i knew about programming etc, - no clue - it was a bit jerky and aggressive - once i learned about here etc, and when i finally got around to playing with the motor comp. 40 seemed better to me smoother and not jerky - i did feel a lose of speed though also - its more laid back -


its possiable for different users - to need or want more motor comp as less - i am sure theres a Bare Min. it needs for any user - but i have no problem trying it at 35 - then 40 to see the difference if i feel its better or not - maybe i plug it in later and make that one change - and your settings i copied - i didnt try it outside yet - i just used it in my hall way - too much for me my current settings i use are more in line and control able for me. even my other settings i been using before for years - i tried them now and they also feel a bit much - i can use them and i can use yours also if needed - it just takes more out of me to handle control and more alert etc, - it gets tiring at times . sometimes i want to just take it easy - but keep the top speed - thats fine

[Burgerman]

For who ? i dont see how it can be decided whats right or wrong - i mean on my pilot chair - it was at 55 stock and before i knew about programming etc, - no clue - it was a bit jerky and aggressive - once i learned about here etc, and when i finally got around to playing with the motor comp. 40 seemed better to me smoother and not jerky - i did feel a lose of speed though also - its more laid back

Its not about for someone. Its not a "user setting" as such. Its about an electrical thing. The motor impedance is a direct measure of electrical motor resistance. The correct figure can be found by using a meter that measures resistance of the motor itself, plus its cables. Or by stalling a motor and measuring amps at x volts. And using ohms law. While theres is some very small amount of variation, its not really a user thing. It may be that a heavy user 'prefers' a very slightly higher setting than a light user. But we are talking about a really small change. I use a too high 50 instead of the correct 45. Setting to 40 almost disables it, and the chair has low torque at low speed settings.

But the difference between 30 and 45 is so great that in your case you have almost turned off all the load compensation. It will be doing almost nothing at all.

Its purpose is to compensate for load. Its probably THE most important setting to fine tune on any chairs motor. That is if an obstacle or a slope or threshold prevents a wheel moving or moving normally, the motor compensation adds more power to that motor alone. If set too low it will add alost nothing. If set too high it will add way too much and potentially run away. Its not a percentage. It is "self reinforcing". Its a positive feedback system. If it sees more Amps, it adds yet more. So that adding say 5mOhm is a tiny and pointless change that will do almost nothing if its is still set too low. But adding that same 5 if its already set correctly, will make a huge difference and make the chair very jumpy.

And the CORRECT figure depends on the motors physical impedance in mOhms.

[expresso]

Ok i understand but if a user never noticed anything wrong or felt a need for more on a curb or what ever - why would it even cross there mind - you know what i mean - Ok we here have the tools to do this and check my settings - change them adjust them etc, - 99% dont and never will or never care either way -

why would going to 35 make no difference - it may be set correctly at 30 and going to 35 can make a difference ? OR your saying that every 4 pole linix motor has to be set to 40 or 45 from the start ? then adjust the rest of the settings to suit the users needs or ability ? so if put mines at 40 and its too jerky or jumpy at slow stick movements - i should lower my forward acceleration - slow my turns speeds down etc, i understand if going to 35 is still below the Min. that you say and wont make any difference in feel - at the same time - not looking to just go right to 50 and run into the wall full speed - if its fine at 35 - i can proceed to 40

whos to say i put in 40 and then its a runaway - i think everyone should be careful and proceed slowly with this - a long long time ago - at the very start - i did do something that wasnt good on the pilot chair - dont recall what - maybe it was motor comp. all i know is - chair didnt stop as intended and i did run into my audio rack - good thing nothing happened its steel - i didnt get hurt - this was at the very start of doing this programming etc,

[Burgerman]

why would going to 35 make no difference - it may be set correctly at 30 and going to 35 can make a difference ?

Thats true. But unless your motors are different to mine, and everyone elses 4 pole linix (unlikely) then that cant be the case. Although it is POSSIBLE (1% likely they made you a special motor?) So always proceed with care just in case.

OR your saying that every 4 pole linix motor has to be set to 40 or 45 from the start ? then adjust the rest of the settings to suit the users needs or ability ? so if put mines at 40 and its too jerky or jumpy at slow stick movements - i should lower my forward acceleration - slow my turns speeds down etc, i understand if going to 35 is still below the Min. that you say and wont make any difference in feel - at the same time - not looking to just go right to 50 and run into the wall full speed - if its fine at 35 - i can proceed to 40

Yes. Every 45mOhm motor, should be set to 45mOhm. Which as far as I know all 4 poll Linix (and AMT, and most 4 pols in fact) But JUST IN CASE your motors are different, (highly unlikely, every one I saw was 45mOhm) proceed in small steps. So it does not run away and is safe. Add 5mOhm at a time. My settings file, linked above should then work perfectly.

whos to say i put in 40 and then its a runaway - i think everyone should be careful and proceed slowly with this

TOO RIGHT! This is why it is an OEM and not a USER setting... You can make the chair either useless or dangerous very quickly. SMALL CHANGES until you notice its getting very jumpy. Then go back 5mOhm.

[expresso]

i can do that - small increase of 5 at a time - i am sure 40 is fine - i believe i did it before - i put it back not sure why - but i do it again till i notice its too jumpy or jerky at slow stick speeds - Since this is not a user or dealer setting - and if in fact they should be 40 from stock - they the manufactors should just put 40 and adjust the other settings instead - with there Walls they put up - this way the motor is correctly set and use the rest of the settings to Tone it down -

i guess its hard to say who will get the chair - what user - etc, and they play on the safe size of things - then again - another thing to keep in mind. my Pilot chair 222se - came from Sunrise - my 646 is sunrise but the seating company motion concepts did there own thing and i am sure they adjusted the settings to there liking for the seat lift and may have toned it down - the chair may have came from Sunrise at 40 - if it wasnt touched before i got it -

now i am curious to fine out since my friend has same motors on her 636 - broken now but when she gets them replaced - i am curious to check her settings and see - but again her chair went from sunrise to motion concepts for seating same as mines - seat lift etc, - i will check that and adjust her settings which she wanted done but our timing never worked out. shes active - and using the 36ah pack which without it - wont make it thru the day. and this was my very first small pack - yet its still going strong for its size going on 5 years use

there may be another 636 i can check that came from sunrise direct - it has the VR2 Joystick just curious to see what it was set at from factory direct to user - 4 pole same motors 6.5 on that one

[LROBBINS]

Here are a couple tests to see if motor compensation is set too low:

(1) find something like a 1" diameter branch or broom handle and put it about a foot in front of one wheel. Drive forward being careful to move the stick only forward and not to "adjust" one side relative to the other. Does the chair basically go straight ahead as it climbs and then descends the obstacle? (= adequate compensation) Or does it turn toward the wheel with the obstacle when climbing and the other way when descending? (not enough compensation)

(2) Find that rare street corner in New York with decent curb cuts at both sides of the street and little car or pedestrian traffic. Starting on the level, go down one cut and up the next holding a steady joystick position. Does the chair speed up going down a cut and slow going up one? (not enough compensation) Or does it hold a nearly steady speed as long as the joystick is held stead? (enough compensation).

[expresso]

i try to keep that in mind next time i go out using that chair - but before then - i will up it to 35 later today and leave it -

its not easy NYC streets are Horriable - nothing is never flat - or evenly done - curb cuts have deep cuts openings before the curb itself its dangerous - one word of advice for anyone - never go up a curb cut thats filled with water before it and you cant see whats under the water

chances are you may get stuck in it - or flip forward etc, - this is why we wear out our motors - chairs everything - its a constant fight when riding in NYC -

[expresso]

I upped it to 40 motor comp. and all seems well - its got a little more get up and go to it - i toned down turning speed some - what i noticed is when going up curbs etc, my front end goes up it holds a straigth line - more or less - not sure if that has something to do with motor comp. or not - but its a good thing either way

i will leave it at 40 and just fine tune the other settings - i am adjusting the speed paddle settings also - it was stock at 20 - for the time i want to go slower than full speed - i go down a notch to 4 - but i find i like it a bit faster - not sure if i have to raise the number or lower it - testing that at the moment -

safe to say 40 motor comp is fine on my chair and may well should be there as BM says -

[Burgerman]

45 should be even better...

[expresso]

when say better - you mean what more or less - more get up and go - more responsive ? i can try that also - will do it in a few mins.

its very hot today - only have a short trip to make - can try it out - its about 90 degrees today - feels like 93

[Burgerman]

Its not more responsive. It is more closely following the joystick. It is doing as you tell it, and responding correctly, and with similar torque at low and high speed (pulsewidth). When it is set too low, then you need to manually add more power when its stuck or slowed due to load. When set correctly it responds the same regardless of load, slopes, turning etc.

[expresso]

ok will see how it works today at 45 - i adjusted the paddle settings - its the buttons on the JS which increase or decrease as you push them -

i wanted to increase just a bit the speed on the 4th setting - NOT PROFILE settings - so i dont have to go full speed - if i want to slow it down with the buttons instead - but 4 was a bit too slow - not sure how it works if the number 20 that was there means a 20% reduction on each step i think - so i went to 15 to see.

i also upped the front wheel drive setting to 20% also - had it on 10% - that seems to help some in keeping it straight more often - NYC streets roads are crap - your all over the place with the JS - construction been going on for the past 100 years - never ends -

[Burgerman]

i wanted to increase just a bit the speed on the 4th setting - NOT PROFILE settings - so i dont have to go full speed - if i want to slow it down with the buttons instead - but 4 was a bit too slow - not sure how it works if the number 20 that was there means a 20% reduction on each step i think - so i went to 15 to see.

I leave speed on max. If I want to go slower I dont push the stick as far...

[expresso]

yes that would be in a perfect world - on the Rnet chair - its harder for me to do it that way - its either pushed all the way forward or not mostly - its not as easy for me to do it the correct way - now on the bounder - its very different feel on the stick etc, and i can do it that way there - its very light to move the stick around and easily handled - on that chair speed is left full wide open - and easily using the Stick as you do -

going back and forth between both chairs - i find alot of good on the bounder in many ways - then the 646 i find other good points also - a bit more comfy for one - i almost feel as if the bounder has an edge on many things - if you can deal with stiffer ride - bit more noise - squeaks

its more fun - not as fast taking off - bad on hills - but fast and i take advantage of it as much as i can

the stick is lighter on the bounder - and given the position - i feels its helping me and i can move stick around better than on the Rnet

the Rnet i hold it and hold the side of the JS - but its a stiffer feel and harder for me to pull back on it to stop fast etc, so its either full speed ahead on the stick or almost not - harder to hold it in between - at least for me it is - - i am sure alot of it has to do with me and my ability as i age and progress. like my seat back - i just got the deep back to hold me in place better - - feels great works great and keeps your arms feel to move around - Elite Deep Back - Matrix -

[Burgerman]

Having the joystick in the CORRECT and most comfortable position for you, no matter who makes it, is the number one important thing on any chair. Theres absolutely no point trying to properly program a chair until you have this right. No stock chairs are.

What you CANNOT do is sit your arm on the chairs arm, (or nothing) and grab the joystick to drive the chair. That gives you almost no fine control and any bump or steer/acceleration command will move your hand and the joystick giving unwanted inputs... All chairs as stock are like this and so are most users!

This is why stock chairs HAVE that delayed, pudding stirrer programming. Its why they are hard to control. The manufacturer EXPECT that every joystick input is slammed from one thing to another, and we then wait a bit to see what happens. A mix of incorrect joystick holding technique, zero initial joystick skills, and bad positioning, means that the awful programming is essential to stop out of control or scared users!

The joystick pod needs to be in a position that is a couple of inches further inboard that the chairs arm. And a couple of inches higher up. So the users hand can cup or hold the side of the pod, for hand stability, and the thumb and forefinger to control the joystick. It needs to be where you would naturally hold a cup of coffee when your arm is on the armrest. Not straight out ahead! Not low down, and not to the outer edge of the chair!

This way no amount of bumps, or chair movement can affect the input command. NOW you can have real proportional control. REAL linear programming. REAL easy intuitive steering and accuracy while being fully relaxed and in control. And you will be perfectly relaxed even on the highest speed indoors.