Rnet Settings issue - Volts etc

[foghornleghorn]

Having the joystick in the CORRECT and most comfortable position for you, no matter who makes it, is the number one important thing on any chair.

You always start off well, then blow it by assuming what is best for you is best for everyone.

[Burgerman]

I said what is comfortable for YOU meaning not me. Cannot understand what part of that you dont get!

However. Nobodys wrists turn outwards towards the outside of the chair unless its broken. Or at least with the majority of non mutants! You can do it for a few seconds then it begins to hurt...

I lost count of the number of people I see struggling to comfortably put their hand on the outside of the joystick for stability. Because it is invariably always mounted way too low, and too far towards the outside edge of the chair. So they dont. They put their arm on the chairs arm, and hold the joystick itself. And then are not in control.

[Burgerman]

In the hospital a guy with tetraplegic hands, had the same issue. He was helped enormously after I programmed his chair to respond when told. And stuck velcro on his arm with a loop to hold his arm. Suddenly, he got it. Because the fingers on the joystick was the only things that counld move. Your arm/hand/pod is the reference point. Those all must be fixed and not moving in relation to each other.

Another analogy.
Try writing neatly, or signing your name with the pen held out with hand in mid air. Then try it with your hand on the page as a reference point.

[foghornleghorn]

I said what is comfortable for YOU meaning not me. Cannot understand what part of that you dont get!

The part where you then go on to say what is perfect for you meaning you, phrased as if it is what everyone else should be doing.

[Burgerman]

Thats not what I said or meant. But to be fair, any normal non mutant basically has to have pretty much what I described to be comfortable and able to grasp the pod/joystick properly. So when I said for YOU thats what I meant. But heres betting that that would actually be how I describe. (Arm on chair arm, holding coffee cup...)

I dont know how you hold yours but it will be above the arm, and will be inside the arms centreline on almost all humans...

You dont hold things OUTSIDE of your arm. Or below your arm.

[foghornleghorn]

I'll have to try and remember to take some photos.

[expresso]

45 motor comp. is fine also and will leave it there - its more lively thats for sure - BUT again it changed things and i have to readjust my settings.

First off your right about many things as a Base line to have Control of the chair - positioning of JS - hand etc, - But we dont all have full control of our arms - hands upper body etc, what seems natural to someone - dosnt feel natural to me - my arms hands etc, sit a certain way and i feel natural - but it wont be your way - my arm does sit on the armpad - always had - where else would it sit -

i do get unwanted movements because of that - when chair rocks over bumps - at times it affects me the wrong way and other times i handle it better. i dont know anyone or ever seen a user with there arm not resting on the armpad - maybe a few - one guy i know his armpad is under his armpit - his whole arm is outside off the armpad and hes comfortable that way -

i agree some settings can still be useful for everyone - like removing the Walls - etc, but the other settings wont be good if following your way of thinking.

you may think i dont listen to you - but actually been listening and do but they dont work for me and i have a feeling they wont for many others who dont have good upper body arm hand strength either -

Now on the bounder chair - no one likes that Box look etc, but guess what - feels better to me now - i use it for support - the Stick is light and very easy to move around with just my thumb - for example - both chairs have good and bad points - i can handle the bounder better i think to stop faster - pulling the stick back - no gears - makes a different - i have to keep adjusting till i have some overshoot i guess - the very thing you want to not have just minor - as to compensate for my ability.

[LROBBINS]

I don't think John is suggesting to not have your arm on the pad, but to have the joystick positioned so that with your arm on the arm rest your hand is turned toward the inside and definitely not up in the air. In that way your palm can be supported by the joystick housing and just two fingers (for most people thumb and index) are working the stick. I suspect that this is actually what you are doing with the Bounder's big, square-sided box. It's not a matter of changing the natural position of your arm and hand, but getting the joystick itself positioned so that your hand is well supported while you are using it.

[expresso]

i see - at current position of Rnet JS my hand is holding the side of the JS housing as intended - it does not come inwards as suggested but sits higher up - my hand holds the stick with my thumb and first finger - cups it - but sits different than the bounder which feels better to me in alot of ways. Rnet has more tension - needs more force to move it than the bounder - and that can make a difference also.

i can get it from programming to a spot where i can use it as is and still be in control - its hard with NYC streets all broken - compared to when i go out riding on flat ground - curb cuts are steep most of the times - - broken half of the times - too many people in the way -

having some delays can be a good thing sometimes and actually thats what i may have to do - loosen it a bit to have small delay to work around the issues.

[Burgerman]

I don't think John is suggesting to not have your arm on the pad, but to have the joystick positioned so that with your arm on the arm rest your hand is turned toward the inside and definitely not up in the air. In that way your palm can be supported by the joystick housing and just two fingers (for most people thumb and index) are working the stick. I suspect that this is actually what you are doing with the Bounder's big, square-sided box. It's not a matter of changing the natural position of your arm and hand, but getting the joystick itself positioned so that your hand is well supported while you are using it.

That!

IMAGES -- Which means that this way of controlling a joystick wont ever work properly. Definitely will never allow you to control a chair properly, and certainly will not allow you to program a chair for instant linear proportional easy control. And is what I see on the vast majority of chairs.

[Burgerman]

This is in the correct position for most humans natural wrist position in regards being positioned to the LEFT.
But its a fraction too low, and is too close to the arm.

There must be a gap, around 2 to 3 inches, between arm top and joystick.
Remember that you should be holding the joystick pods right side. Like a gun. Like a handshake. With your thumb on top.

Forget the joystick for a minute. Hold your hand out. its natural resting position is like a handshake. Notice that it also curls in towards the middle. This is where your joystick should be when your arm is on the armrest.

Your hand should not be flat like you have it on a worktop. Or a piano.
And with the arm top so close to the joystick as in this picture, the lower part of your hand(shake) cannot reach the pod. Its too close, and its still slightly too low. Remember that you are SHAKING HANDS with the pod, with thumb, and one finger on the joystick lever. In this slightly inboard position.

Now watch my HAND...

WWW.WHEELCHAIRDRIVER.COM/gopro/control.mp4

[expresso]

yes i agree - those pictures are not good - and its not like mines at all or how i hold mines

[Burgerman]

No, but its how MOST chairs are. P.S. I added a lot more after you replied.

[Burgerman]

In order to have real control (and be able to program your chair to go where you tell it and have absolute control and confidence to wheely through doorways or just drive in comfort) you MUST hold the side of the joystick pod for reference and stability. Its a HANDSHAKE with the pod. In whetever pod position YOU need for comfort.

See below. There MUST be a gap big enough for your hand to get in and cup the pod. Sideways! A handshake. Your hand must be vertical. Not flat!

The gap... REQUIRED!!!

The REQUIRED gap!!! Use a short ARM TOP, do not move the pod further away!!!

The gap in use!!! + This is to show that the pod is more INBOARD by around 2 inches than the ARM CENTRE LINE. It is enough that your hand will never touch a doorframe. When the ARM top will. Or your arm may. This is where your hand will naturally form unless you are a mutant.

Inboard Position. Slightly high. GAP!!!

This is how it looks in use. Here while wheelieing. No amount of crashing up, down, or bumps in the street will caise ANY unwanted input or stick movement. And its completely comfortable for hours on end as its the natural position your hand prefers to be in when relaxed.

During use. WATCH THE MOVIE, WATCH THE HAND.

***********************************************************************************************************************

WATCH THIS MOVIE, ignore the chair, look at the HAND only!!! Coplete stability, comfort, and no unintended inputs allow wild programming to be absolutely natural and easy and accurate. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4

[expresso]

i see - and again it may not work the same way for someone else even if all positions are in place as suggested - whos to say if i did move my JS inward - i may not feel comfortable with my arm then - or i may and may work better -

i cant say since its not inward with the gap - other than that - i control it with same thumb finger also - maybe if i can manage one day to get it inward - i can then test it that way - till then - i have to work on it the way it is - its much better than stock for sure -

in my case then - i would need it about 2 inches in to me ? mines is straight head level with armpad i dont see how even if i did move it inward one day - how would that not make my hand move if my arm will still be on armpad and move with the chair over bump etc ?

now the bounder - its the same way more or less - i did move it inward a bit - but its not as in your pictures - my hand rests on the box but i seem to handle that better - controlling the stick - not sure i would feel better with my hand inwards more - since its natural the way it is now

but cant say for sure till i try it - if i can one day

[expresso]

still one important thing - you have better hand arm control than many - makes a huge difference -

not sure i can keep my JS stick so far away from the arm pad - seems i would have to reach more to get to the stick - could be wrong -

all speculation now till i actually able to position it that way and see for myself

[Burgerman]

see - and again it may not work the same way for someone else even if all positions are in place as suggested - whos to say if i did move my JS inward - i may not feel comfortable with my arm then - or i may and may work better -

It WILL feel better. In any case, it goes in the position YOU consider is most comfortable while holding the pod how I showed. Not me!!!

in my case then - i would need it about 2 inches in to me ? mines is straight head level with armpad i dont see how even if i did move it inward one day - how would that not make my hand move if my arm will still be on armpad and move with the chair over bump etc ?

Because your hand will be in contact with the SIDE of the pod, once you have a gap, giving it stability no matter what your arm does.

now the bounder - its the same way more or less - i did move it inward a bit - but its not as in your pictures - my hand rests on the box but i seem to handle that better - controlling the stick - not sure i would feel better with my hand inwards more - since its natural the way it is now

but cant say for sure till i try it - if i can one day

Handshake, hand sideways not flat, not on top. Needs gap, and allows you to HOLD the pod.

[Burgerman]

not sure i can keep my JS stick so far away from the arm pad - seems i would have to reach more to get to the stick - could be wrong -

You are not getting it! The JOYSTICK POD goes in the correct most comfortable position for you. Usually closer than stock. And inboard by the amount that you like, high enough that you can handshake with it and hold that side, and its the ARM TOP thats gotta go! Move it back, get a shorter one, or saw a bit off or whatever it takes... You cant make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

Once you get this right, you will be more comfortable, bumps and your broken streets will be a breeze regardless of how sharp the programming. This is the single thing that people do not get. This is why the programming must be abysmal on most chairs to compensate. The manufacturers are seemingly clueless here.

Also you dont need tilt. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... k3/sit.avi I used to sit like this in the pub with a kicked back all the time.

[expresso]

i see - my hand does hold the side of the JS on all my chairs but not inwards enough to have the gap between my hand and arm top -

Rnet sits closer to my hand - to bring it any closer - would have to cut my arm top - modifications of that sort is not something i can do -

but more important first is if i can figure out how to bring it inward to try that with out cutting anything - finding or making a bracket is not as simple for me and its not something i can find online

[Burgerman]

You need the gap, or he joystick has to go higher up. You actually need all three. Inboard, gap, and a bit higher than the arm top to make it easy and comfortable in a natural position. So you can go any iles and its a natural position for a human, like a handshake.

This has yet to have the arm moved back - so theres no gap and its less easy to control and is not comfortable. It is already higher, and isslightly inboard, but no gap... Soon there will be. Just needs reconfiguring. This is of course the RIGHT arm!

[expresso]

well i have it higher up some already - missing the gap and inward - i will keep that in mind and see what i can get done one of these days.

to have a gap - looks like it needs more than 2 inches in

[Burgerman]

Whatever makes it more natural, while holding the side like a handshake for YOU

[expresso]

handshaking dosnt feel natural to me - but i know what you mean - i wish i could buy a bracket ready made for the rnet - with the screws etc, would make this so much easier to even test try - forget asking the dealer vendor - no one will help or even consider helping you get it -

[Burgerman]

I spent 2 hours on the R-Net with its daft wobbly swing away mount.

Why? Because.
1. It was very loose and wobbly. As a swingaway the sunrise one (and all the ones I ever saw) were crap! So I drilled all the bolt holes out to the next size bolt, ACCURATELY so they are all a tight fit with zero play. And then tightened them all individually untill each one was causing SOME extra friction or drag. Result? 100X better!!! But its still too short to swing past the arm once you relocate it from the outer edge where they stupidly put it, to the inside where it has to be to position it correctly.

2. Move it more INBOARD. Creatinve thinking, reconfigure the whole seat base, arm, arm top, drill a few additional holes, throw away the original mounting mechanism (saw) and its now moved from the outer edge, to the inner edge.

3. Make some spacers, to lift the pod up by 50mm (2 inches).

Now this is all BETTER but not good enough, as pictured above.
Swing away needs LONGER "fingers"... So it can still actually swing away past the wide arm from the inboard position.
And the arm top needs to be repositioned 2 to 3 inches more rearwards. To give a gap. And ideally the pod needs to go further inboard by 1.5 inches too. As it is it makes my arm/hand ache and tire of position.

All this is basic 101 setup that should be done by the manufacturer. Followed by proper programming. Followed by moving the seating back to the correct position, and setting depth/width for you. DAY 1 basic configuration. Which never happens for the life of most chairs. As it takes about 3 to 8 hours. Depending. So unless YOU as a user do this stuff you are screwed like 99% of the users out there.

[expresso]

all sounds good - but not in my reach to do all that - one thing that came to mind now also - i just changed my seat back - but i think i may have angled it a bit too much in a way i think i am leaning back a bit more than i should - dosnt feel bad but i see myself in the windows when riding outside and seems as if i should be up more straight - so next chance i get - i may do that - if i feel ok in the new position - i tilted the chair lower to compensate in the meantime - since i have to have it tilted some to use it or else too forward feeling -

may not make a difference in the JS thing anyway - sunrise makes the best swingaways - i never had an issue with them not holding up over the years - its simple and works for me.

[Burgerman]

They all wobble and rattle and allow the joystick to move. If it moves just 5mm on a bump and your chair is programmed to respond, thats an input you didnt want that will accelerate, decelerate, or turn your chair! Wobbly pods, and wobbly arms are a definite no. If you have those, and you do, any accurate control with a properly programmed chair just becomes much harder. Like trying to drive a car with the drivers seat loose and moving about!

[expresso]

true - but mines dosnt wobble around or move really at all - its pretty much sits there and thats it - this is sunrise i am talking about

not the others - the others are horrible - invacare is a joke - pride forget it -

[Burgerman]

Yes my salsa was a sunrise one. Better tha most. Still completely useless wobbly thing.

Grab the end of the pod. Wiggle up and down. Does it move?
Side to side, does it move?
Does the arm itself move?

If it does, its useless!

[expresso]

mines dosnt move - you have the new version of the swing away which is different than what i have - and means i will get the same one you have on my next chair and then it may move as your did..

the older ones are solid - and makes me wonder why change something thats working good - - at sunrise was better at not complicating things and it looks like they are slowly following the rest of them - making it complicated when it dosnt need to be -

if and when i get my new chair - will be easy a year after i start the process the way things are going here - maybe even two years since i will be asking for things that are not covered by insurance - wait for it to be denied and then appeal it - - so much longer than a year this time around.

[Burgerman]

mines dosnt move - you have the new version of the swing away which is different than what i have - and means i will get the same one you have on my next chair and then it may move as your did..

Money...

I have the older ones too. 3X the cost. A bean counter got some cheaper ones made.