Another New Chair

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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Rollin Positive » 22 Oct 2020, 17:18

Arima wrote:
Burgerman wrote:Also, what is it with America?

DME, USA, WCJ, DME, ATP, DP, VP, CEO, and more in 1 post. czy I know what some of them are...


HaHa thats exactly what went thru my mind trying to keep up with you guys on this thread. Reminds me of an EU flowchart I looked at once trying to understand the government structure over there.

Rollin Positive wrote:
Arima said
"You made me chuckle with that question. I doubt anyone would describe me as passive. Often being direct gets me labeled as angry and uncooperative."

I tell people be the biggest pain in the ass and use the next level of management at your DME till you get what you want.

If you are passive this industry will walk all over you so use an advocate if your not comfortable speaking up for yourself.

I am always willing to help anyone in the US of chair funding.


It's a good thing I can't get up or I would have caved in some skulls with a bat by now. That however will probably not help me get a new chair. What usually happens is I tell them they are an idiot or swear at their stupid ideas and they call security to have me thrown out. A business always has the right to refuse service. If you have the CEO's phone number now you have some leverage. Maybe someday you can give me a lesson in diplomacy. I'm always nice to start with until I hear the first excuse or obstacle or whatever bullshit the lazy clerk is spewing that day. I don't feel the need for help with funding....it's the ordering process that's out of reach. We know manufactures can...but DME's get in the way.

National Seating sent me a note today saying they could get an Invacare Storm series rwd chair with center powered footrest, but I don't think that will use r-net?

So I called Numotion. Talked to the paper pusher and she said they work with my insurance Aetna. Then she connected me to the dude who orders chairs whatever his initials and title are. We talk about everything...Motion Concepts custom seating, Frontier, Sunrise/Quickie. He even had the number for Sunrise "Built4Me" custom build department. He will be calling them tomorrow.

He wanted me to ask you Expresso...your new chair with center footrest. Is the footrest powered and does the whole chair use r-net only? He knew Motion concepts did up grades but he thought they only used their own proprietary control system and not r-net.

You are also right about the priority being whatever works to keep you healthy. I'd ride a St Bernard all day if it kept me from getting a hole in my ass. Anyway the process is moving, I think the direction is forward...thank you all again so very much!


Just make sure the person your talking to is a ATP this will be the person setting up your order.

Your on the right path, set expectations give him a week to get back to you with the information your wanting and if you know what you want to demo a few models or manufactures do this now to shake out the chairs that just dont work for you...

If he doesn't get back to you in a week email him vs calling and include his manager.

I cant tell you how many times people tell me he said this or she said that but no record of it.

Emails give you a digital footprint as your moving though the order system and it also is helpful if it gets delayed you can prove your point to the manger or GM

I never talk to anyone at NuMotion in less I am down there its always email and it saves to much time and frustration.

I had a bad night so ill check back later and getting you the Frontier reps contact information and trying to get answers also on rear wheel drive here in the states and center mount also.

I saw something but cant find it about seat elevation and rear wheel but last I heard its hard to find it because with seating system that recline and tilt and elevate its about center of gravity.

With my F3 as it goes up it also moves back to put the center of gravity over the drive tires to make it more safe for the end user.

I do know a few people that have Bounders that have scissor lifts on rear wheel and love them.
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby expresso » 22 Oct 2020, 18:18

bounder lifts are excellent - super fast up or down and very stable - but i dont drive when up either way - still feels scary to me - - its been shown to be able to drive all the way up and stable - but i wont do that
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Rollin Positive » 23 Oct 2020, 17:56

expresso wrote:bounder lifts are excellent - super fast up or down and very stable - but i dont drive when up either way - still feels scary to me - - its been shown to be able to drive all the way up and stable - but i wont do that


Yeah I hear you my balance is terrible so as I rise up it gets worse!

My Frontier v6 and Permobil F3 have a 12" lift the F5 will have a 14" lift!
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Rollin Positive » 23 Oct 2020, 18:38

Arima wrote:
expresso wrote:i have a 636 on order - its held up - insurance - going to court this week to let the judge decide

Good Luck in Court! I cant imagine living without a center footrest on at least one of my chairs. Q500H Looks like the closest thing to a sunrise rwd. But it starts out with the anti tipper actually on the ground. Would be nice to get a few photos of the frame. And of course center footrest is not on the order form...so still need the work around like you did.

Burgerman wrote:In the US they offer exactly the same CUSTOM BUILD service.
https://www.sunrisemedical.com/custom-w ... ion-levels


Your link worked for me...you big stud! With a USA designation in the header!


Rollin Positive wrote:If you reread your post..you take the position of seeing what the ATP can offer you?

I believe my original statement was..."Wonder what they will offer". Without a question mark. That's me being skeptical and negative! I'm not sure if you are asking me a question here? BTW how are you doing with the fires in your state? I still need to find a winter getaway.

Rollin Positive wrote:Being a brand ambassador for Innovation in Motion and Frontier chairs.
Frontier seems to be the best game in town for rwd. I'm riding this freaking chair all day everyday. How much more research do I need to do? Seriously the point of this thread is to get information. What/Where else do you suggest I research? Do you have a personal contact at Innovation In Motion?

OK Great news Innovation in Motion: https://mobility-usa.com/p-frontier-v6-fwd-rwd.php

Here is the information for the rear wheel drive Frontier available in the US.

All seating and accessories are the same as the mid wheel drive.

https://mobility-usa.com/pdfs/x8-base-options.pdf

I know this says X8 base options but it has all base options.

Center mount footplate is available.

In WA the Brewis Group handles the state. There are 3 gentlemen that support the state.

You can contact Barry Brewis are barryb@brewisgroup.com
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Rollin Positive » 23 Oct 2020, 18:39

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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Rollin Positive » 23 Oct 2020, 18:43

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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Rollin Positive » 23 Oct 2020, 18:44

Wow seat elevation looks great!


youtu.be/NnquzRE-00Q
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby expresso » 23 Oct 2020, 18:54

how do you change out the batteries ? lift the seat lift all the way up and from inside - have to lift them up and out ?

i wish they had just a bit more speed though also - 6 mph is very slow - even if not 8.5 - at least 7.5 would be nice

as you know - i am waiting on my court verdict - once i get it - depending what it is - will determine if i start over and will demo one if i have to start over - before deciding i like the chair so far - the speed is a big drawback - but i want to leave that option open either way
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Arima » 23 Oct 2020, 21:20

Rollin Positive wrote:OK Great news Innovation in Motion: https://mobility-usa.com/p-frontier-v6-fwd-rwd.php

Here is the information for the rear wheel drive Frontier available in the US.

All seating and accessories are the same as the mid wheel drive.

https://mobility-usa.com/pdfs/x8-base-options.pdf

I know this says X8 base options but it has all base options.

Center mount footplate is available.

In WA the Brewis Group handles the state. There are 3 gentlemen that support the state.

You can contact Barry Brewis are barryb@brewisgroup.com


Outstanding! Thank you, Thank you!!

So National seating sent me another mail. He's in contact with Sunrise Built4Me. So now I have Numation and National checking on the same thing with Built4Me. Wanted to avoid this situation but it's better than the alternative... getting no help. I've mentioned Frontier to each of them but saving that as the next option.

Rollin Positive wrote: Keeping things simple group 4 chairs are considered more of outdoor chairs and normally not covered but if you can show need are slowly being covered!


Exactly what I was looking for...the medically necessary reasons for a group4 chair!


Burgerman wrote:Heres the Q500R one. Its a smaller battery, lower motor spec, lower power Amp module. SAME EXACT CHAIR but with less of the good options, and no centre footrest or lift/tilt options. MANY of the options available on the 700 are missing. And generally lower spec - cheaper.

However, all of the missing options such as powered centre footrest, 120A power module/rnet and power lift/tilt etc ARE available as bespoke options (build 4 you) if you read the form...

So a Q500R can be a full Q700 spec with bespoke options added. And NON of that needs any 3rd party seating company.

http://www.sunrisedice.com/asset-bank/a ... /59031.pdf


Yes I think it can all be done. Just need to pull the right levers.

On the 700R order form...what is Tracking? I should omit it?
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby steves1977uk » 23 Oct 2020, 23:04

A Gyro is not needed on a RWD chair, so ignore! Gyro's are usually fitted to FWD ones to try and stop fishtailing at high speed, but removes some responsiveness from the joystick.

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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Burgerman » 24 Oct 2020, 01:32

A Gyro is not needed on a RWD chair, so ignore! Gyro's are usually fitted to FWD ones to try and stop fishtailing at high speed, but removes some responsiveness from the joystick.

Steve


Gyro/FWD. Depending on the amount of opposing power it is having to apply at the time, it removes ALL of the responsiveness as theres non left for you to add... You will only notice this at speed normally, as you are turning or as its trying to stop you turning or spinning out "internally". If its already internaly using say "full left stick" to keep you straight/stop spin-out then you adding more "left stick" obviously does nothing at all... With stock delayed action programming this is disguised so you cant notice it, as it isnt responsive and doesent steer properly in the first place. So depending on use, and on programming you might never know or feel this. Ask Rollpositive.

I tried it on several front drive chairs and absolutely hate it as it makes the steering unpredictable. Rollpositive has never experienced it because his programming is so "pudding stirrer" and deleyed that he cant tell. Like most users. So it depends on how much of a control freak and how responsive and accurate you expect.

So no you do not want a gyro if you dont need one. Especially on mid or rear drive.
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Frank » 25 Oct 2020, 10:36

Has anyone tried one of the hybrid wheelchairs Q500H https://www.sunrisemedical.com/power-wheelchairs/quickie/rear-wheel-drive/q500-h? If yes how do you find it?
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Burgerman » 25 Oct 2020, 10:50

I have not. I HAVE tried a freinds imported chair whose brand name eludes me with the same setup. (Amisystems? Its a quickie in disguise) And looking at the Q500R and the HYBRID from the side shows a few things.

It shows that its basically a Q500R with some casters sticking out of the rear. Instead of anti tips. You may prefer that but I would find them limiting and in the way at the same time. It also shows the same stupid seperate "here comes my legs, here comes me" swing away foot riggings. Not sure if a centre footrest is available on the 500r, but it is on the 700r. But its of limited value as the chair will always be hugely nose heavy as even the centre footplate cannot move back between the caster as they are too close together. So not sure it offers any advantage over the rear drive version. Just longer and less likely to tip backwards.

In order to do curbs, or uneven ground, I WANT to be able to lift the casters a inch or so as I aproach. They will also prevent you reversing up a bump or small curb. And hit peoples feet in a busy pub as you manoevre. So not my thing. Your mileage may vary.
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby rover220 » 25 Oct 2020, 14:19

Can't really see the point of the hybrid. Those that want a rear drive chair won't be impressed with the rear castor setup limiting what the chair can do and those that want a mwd a better with a true mid.
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Burgerman » 26 Oct 2020, 12:23

The Q500R and Q700R are exactly the same with the only difference being a gyro and a few other things you are actually better off without...

And the Q500 is much cheaper, and HAS a centre power or unpowered footrest option right there on the order form. No build 4 me option needed.
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby rover220 » 26 Oct 2020, 19:17

Burgerman wrote:The Q500R and Q700R are exactly the same with the only difference being a gyro and a few other things you are actually better off without...

And the Q500 is much cheaper, and HAS a centre power or unpowered footrest option right there on the order form. No build 4 me option needed.


they are not the same, frame is bigger in the q700 for a start
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Burgerman » 26 Oct 2020, 19:20

Is it. All specs seem the same. And they look the same. Thats interesting possibly useful news!
More importantly is it wider (700) where the casters are?
When you say bigger, they both take same motors/same batteries. So where is it bigger? Is it just longer? Is the longer bit the caster arms? Which frame is better for Rear drive use and why?

I need to see two at the same time. Side by side then?
I thought they used a similar frame based on the old puma design. But no longer "reversable" as such.
I need measurements for both 500 and 700R now then... :oops:
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby rover220 » 26 Oct 2020, 19:24

frame is longer on q700 iirc. q700 also gets rubber mounts in the frame to act as cushioning. been a while since i have seen both side by side mind so i could well be wrong.
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Burgerman » 26 Oct 2020, 19:37

May be the front arms from one will fit the other. Just found some pics of the q500r that are actually big enough to see with a magnifying glass...
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Rollin Positive » 26 Oct 2020, 21:17

expresso wrote:how do you change out the batteries ? lift the seat lift all the way up and from inside - have to lift them up and out ?

i wish they had just a bit more speed though also - 6 mph is very slow - even if not 8.5 - at least 7.5 would be nice

as you know - i am waiting on my court verdict - once i get it - depending what it is - will determine if i start over and will demo one if i have to start over - before deciding i like the chair so far - the speed is a big drawback - but i want to leave that option open either way


Batteries are easy that is a door on the back that flips down and batteries are on a tray and slide out.

Hear you on speed but the Frontier v6 is the same and for the soft ride it give especially in your city!! Even in like SoHo with the cobblestones its doable.

But I roll most of the time with my wife so 6 mph works..
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Burgerman » 27 Oct 2020, 00:23

These 2 are so damned similar. I can see that the 700 is longer though now maybe??
What concerns me more is which is wider across the casters?
They LOOK basically the same.

Q500R and Q700R. Both can be ordered with a centre footrest.

But as it stands, you can see they will both end up nose heavy as hell unless your centre plate can be moved between the front casters slightly, saving around 6 inches overall, and the seat relocated 3 inches back.
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Burgerman » 27 Oct 2020, 01:18

I just filled in 3 prescription forms.

All three chairs, same spec. Salsa R2. Q500R. Q700R
All with 300mm (12 inch and a bit!) seat lift.
All with power tilt, recline, power centre footrest, 120A power module, all linix 6mph 4 pole motors. (8mph adds a tiny bit to the price but work less well so :fencing ).
All with same back, lights, etc.
All with 14 inch tyres, 9 inch casters.
All with removable single post arms as they are stronger.

All around the same price give or take a couple of hundred...
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Jay_x » 01 Nov 2020, 02:37

Burgerman wrote:
But as it stands, you can see they will both end up nose heavy as hell unless your centre plate can be moved between the front casters slightly, saving around 6 inches overall, and the seat relocated 3 inches back.


But won't the foot rest jam into the front casters then? That always seems to be the problem with center mount foot plates
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Burgerman » 01 Nov 2020, 14:43

It depends on many things.

The main concern is the gap betwen the caster forks. And the tyre size used.

F55 20.5 this allows your heels to be well inside the casters and shortens the point where your toes are by around 6 inches.
Salsa 19.0 this doesent allow your heels to go back as far. But still shortens the poit where your toes are by 4 to 5 inches.
Dietz 19.7 this is in between...
Q700R 17 this allows a gain of around 3 inches in overall length. Allows the seat to go back maybe 2 inches max. But every inch matters. But not ideal.

Fitting 8 inch tyres, allows your heel to go back about another inch. NON of these allows the tyres to hit your feet. And the footplate either.


Thres only so much room. Remember though that with swing away footrests, and the caster wheel swung forwards as you reverse, the heel of your foot has to be ahead of the tyre. So both feet must be totally in front of the caster tyres. And wide apart usually as well. It results in this with your legs ahead of you:
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Burgerman » 01 Nov 2020, 14:44

Same chair with centre footplate removes the corners...
It also allows your footplate to be a few inches closer to the chair without your heels hitting anything.
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Burgerman » 01 Nov 2020, 14:47

The wider the caster arms, or the smaller the tyre size, the further back the centre footplate (and therefore seat) and CG can go.

So with smaller 8 inch tyres, even on the Q700 (and unmeasured Q500R) allow it to go back further. to match my salsa. But not as good as the BM2/3 chairs.

This seat/footplate could go back another inch with 8 inch tyres fitted to the front.
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Burgerman » 02 Nov 2020, 03:19

Also the tyres shown are 280/250 - 4 are called 9 inch. And are 9.25 to 9.5 diameter in reality.
The option tyre and the one used on my salsa, and on my BM2/3 chairs is a 3.00 - 4 tyre. Thats 9.75 to 10 inch diameter.

This tyre, is really just 8 inches. It allows you to fit it to the same stock 4 inch rim. As a turf tyre its strong construction. And 4 ply rated. I just ordered 4 of them. It offers a higher 175 to 250lb load rating at 60psi (depending on make). Its still 3 inches wide. It only 8 inch diameter. 1.5 to 2 inches smaller than the stock tyres.

Yes its smaller diameter. But the Q500 and Q700R chairs have front suspension. So the loss of sidewall should be made up for and comfort should still be similar.

More actual suspension travel on the Q700R by the look of things. This smaller diameter tyre is flat roller type profile, but has rounded edges, so wont dig in and upset carpets or run along pavement edges etc and chatter. It has very high load capability. Probably lighter loading on carpets as its got a flatter contact patch. So less damage to carpet or tyre. And will allow the casters to miss the back corners of the footplate by another inch as its 2 inches smaller diameter. So allows the seat, and footplate both to go back another inch too.

So I ordered 4 of them for £35.78 from a dutch company, delivered, to test on my chairs...
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby ex-Gooserider » 03 Nov 2020, 03:12

Have you seen the caster 'offset' units that Innovation in Motion makes for the Invacare H-frame chairs? As they make them the design sucks as they move the caster barrels forwards, and only out a little.... However the concept is pretty simple, and I'm working on a variation for my project chair... The Invacare H-frames are ideal as they have a "T-slot" built into the top of the frame rail extrusions, but it shouldn't be that hard to make a clamp for other styles...

Basically they make a caster barrel and weld two plates to it that are spaced to sandwich the existing one, with a set of spacers that go inside the factory barrel in place of the caster and bearings. The top plate (on Invacare, could be the bottom on others if that worked better) has an arm that goes back to keep the offset from pivoting. On Invacare it fits into a T-nut in the slot.

If making your own, you could do whatever amount of offset you needed to clear your feet, and whatever angle you wanted...

The downside is that if you move the casters out, it makes the front of the chair wider and the 'swing' of the tires would be wider than the rear wheel track, not sure how much of a problem that really would be....

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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 03:35

I have seen them. However it looks like a bodge! I hate non elegant engineering. Plus 19 inches is enough. So they are currently 17. So... The tyres alone may be just enough. If not I will cut and weld the front arms, or make better ones. Or space the pivot point somehow. But I suspect that the extra inch on each tyre will give me enough. Provided that they didnt make the centre footplate about a foot wide where the heels sit. And obviously they did! Seriously, you couldnt make it up these designers are idiots.

WHY do they do these things. Why does every rear drive chair have swing away foorests that sit you over the caster wheels? What the hell are they on? :chillpill
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Re: Another New Chair

Postby Swan T.W. » 03 Nov 2020, 19:20

ex-Gooserider wrote:Have you seen the caster 'offset' units that Innovation in Motion makes for the Invacare H-frame chairs? As they make them the design sucks as they move the caster barrels forwards, and only out a little.... However the concept is pretty simple, and I'm working on a variation for my project chair... The Invacare H-frames are ideal as they have a "T-slot" built into the top of the frame rail extrusions, but it shouldn't be that hard to make a clamp for other styles...

Basically they make a caster barrel and weld two plates to it that are spaced to sandwich the existing one, with a set of spacers that go inside the factory barrel in place of the caster and bearings. The top plate (on Invacare, could be the bottom on others if that worked better) has an arm that goes back to keep the offset from pivoting. On Invacare it fits into a T-nut in the slot.

If making your own, you could do whatever amount of offset you needed to clear your feet, and whatever angle you wanted...

The downside is that if you move the casters out, it makes the front of the chair wider and the 'swing' of the tires would be wider than the rear wheel track, not sure how much of a problem that really would be....

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I think you mean Motion Concepts not IIM.
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