New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k change!

[Burgerman]

Quick easy explanation.
In my case... The wheel on the Q700 is DIFFERENT to the similar looking JIVE wheel. Initially on first glace they look the same, same style etc.

The JIVE rim must be removed from the chair to change a tyre. Because you need to remove the INNER ring, by removing the 6 bolts. The front half with the 3 spokes and mounting bolts is the part that bolts to the chair. So take the rear 6 bolt from the chair side of the wheel and keep it, throw away the whole JIVE wheel.

On the Q700 Q500 etc the RIM is different. The tyre can be changed by removing a 6 bolt ring from the FRONT FACE of the rim, leaving the wheel, and all the hub bolts still on the chair.

So all you need do is cut the JIVE wheel ring LIP off. The part that retains the tyre. With a jigsaw. And use it as a 1 inch spacer between the 2 halves of the Q700 wheel. And fit 25mm longer bolts x6 to each wheel. So the new ring is sandwhiched in between. This converts the 2 inch rims to 3 inch rims without ever removing the wheel.

[expresso]

sounds good on paper sanding down that Lip part is the better job involved - has to be very smooth in the end -

and you can leave the lip alone also - ?

[Burgerman]

You could just let the extra rim live inside the tyre. But it would drive me mental! Anyway cutting it off with a power jigsaw is a 10 min job really. and a power flap wheel in your portable drill (80 grit?) will soon smooth it all off.

Spray black with a rattlecan and it will look like it was designed that way.

[expresso]

yeah i guess - maybe i can find someone to do that sanding and cutting part - its not something i can do - but dosnt sound hard if you can do it

i like the idea -- you really dont think that extra lip if you leave would do anything Neg. effect or cause tube issues ?

[Burgerman]

I doubt it but it would get in the way a bit when fitting tyres. The tube should just sit over it. But I will be cutting it off...

[Burgerman]

After using a jigsaw, you just put one of these in your portable drill.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Flap-Wheel-D ... SwBLlVTMNS
40 grit moves metal fast! And 60mm diameter.

If you want to know where to cut, put 3 parts of wheel together and spray with a little grey primer where the tyre sits. Dissasemble and cut off the grey...

Smooth with flap wheel. Spray rattle can satin black, and all done! You MAY need to drill 6mm through the 6 holes too. If they are threaded. I think they are.

Whole thing, 2 rims can be done in an hour.

[Burgerman]

Things to note.
Its here.
They forgot my rims. And brought a 8A charger. So 10A charger and wheel inner in post!
Its longer wheelbase than the salsa. So will always feel longer and slower but greater stability and smoother ride outdoors.

Otherwise it will be much the same. Also they removed the batteries and fitted brand new ones as they do on every chair they sell. So now I have a generic crappy set of brand new AGMs! Just what I needed.

Oh and those swing back arms are as useless and wobbly as I expected. To be replaced by a removable (lift off) solid set. Why...

[rover220]

Oh and those swing back arms are as useless and wobbly as I expected. To be replaced by a removable (lift off) solid set. Why...

because some prefer the ease of flip backs for transfers, for getting closer to objects and so that the arms move relative to the backrest recline.

[Burgerman]

These are not the ones connected to the back. They are already single post. But with a wobbly hinges so they swing backwards. But the "catch" lets the arm top move back and forwards an inch when latched. And these are brand new. So when accelerating or decelerating it feels like the arm will fall off. Marvelous. I just ordered the solid ones. I get that some prefer. But they should not move around in use!

If they were to swing back out of the way without feeling like they will soon drop off, then that would be great! But sadly they are crappily designed.
Same as that awful joystick swingaway. Again its going to need some surgery at very least! But this is all stuff I expected. And of course nobody so far has been able to steer the thing! Its got a mond of its own. But thats easy to sort out!

[rover220]

These are not the ones connected to the back. They are already single post. But with a wobbly hinges so they swing backwards. But the "catch" lets the arm top move back and forwards an inch when latched. And these are brand new. So when accelerating or decelerating it feels like the arm will fall off. Marvelous. I just ordered the solid ones. I get that some prefer. But they should not move around in use!

If they were to swing back out of the way without feeling like they will soon drop off, then that would be great! But sadly they are crappily designed.
Same as that awful joystick swingaway. Again its going to need some surgery at very least! But this is all stuff I expected. And of course nobody so far has been able to steer the thing! Its got a mond of its own. But thats easy to sort out!

ah yes, you have the sedeo flip backs, they are indeed a poor effort.

[Burgerman]

Again, What are they "thinking".. Or do they.

It might end up with steel single post salsa ones... Those are good and solid.

And why make the power single centre footplate so wide at the bottom so it hits the caster wheels? Again. Do they think at all? Do the seating blokes ever actually see a powerchair?
And why make the caster arms narrower or closer together than before? That just makes it worse!

These people must be idiots. Again to looks like designed in sections by a committee that have never met.

Might have to use a non powered thin narrow footplate. All this stuff is rediculous. You would think that now and again they might come across someone thats got a clue whle "designing" these chairs.

For indoor use the q500 with centre non powered (and non sedeo) footplate is definitely better. For outdoor the 700 is better.

[Burgerman]

After a good look at it.
This is what it needs. All pretty minor stuff, about half a days work.

1. Replace the wobbly swing back arms. They are brand new, just designed badly. Just bottom half with the alternative "removable fixed position" single post ones (that I have already ordered).

2. Fix the useless swing away controller mount so it doesent move around and wobble instead of staying put. (should be easy - not looked yet) and move it to the right position and height for proper control.

3. Seat is set to 18 x 18 inches. But its then about 20 inches between arms. That is adjustable, so easy.

4. Fit the smaller 8 inch diameter (but 6mm wider) flat low profile tyres that look like rollers on the front, to allow footplate to come another inch to 1.5 inches back. Right now with the seat at the most reaward position, and set to 18 inch depth the centre footplate needs to be at 22 degrees "0ut" to miss the footplate. This will reduce that some. A hacksaw may remove some more if needed! I dont think it will be.

5. Re-program it, since it drives more terrible than any chair I have tested in the last 20 years. I think its got a gyro fitted. I may remove, but will be disabling if not...

6. Will fit either the 3.5 alloy rear rims as per the salsa. Or widen the stock rear wheels and fit the same tyres. Not essential, and makes a big long chair worse indoors. But they look and wear better and its currently got spine breaking flat free ones. As new. So may be for sale later!

7. Already ordered some black "colour accents" to replace the silver ones. Those look terrible. Like grey primer...

8. Take some of the links out of the over complicated headrest.

9. Fit my Jay2 or similar cushion...

So no major mods at all, just a little fine tuning. If you call the above fine tuning. I still think the salsa makes a better rear drive chair, around 5 inches shorter with a little work. And its cheaper. But not much. This is better outdoors, longer, smoother. The salsa better indoors. Both are great with all the right options and fine tuning sorted I suspect.

[Frank]

Is the base and overall length of the Q 500R shorter than that of the Q 700R chair?

[Burgerman]

I think so, dont have one to measure. Looks it. Not by much. Distance between front and rear axles.

[Scragger7]

Just scripted my 700, looking forward to results of your mods and more importantly your programing results.

[Burgerman]

Well programming is easy. But I just tested the https://www.ukmobilitystore.co.uk/shop/ ... -12v-75ah/
Strident batteries they have fitted.
This company fit a new set of Strident AGM batteries to every chair they sell. Whish is a shame as the stock 80Ah ones that sunrise fited are actually better. As long as they were not left discharged. Since the chair isnt used. Just sold as used... Long story

So Strident AGMS...
These are better than most, but still cheap AGM batteries.
They test as per the PDF file, at (exactly!) the same as the spec sheet for capacity.
My test was over 19 hours instead of 20, at a few degrees cooler than the 25 degrees in the spec. Tested after a 24 hour charge. Down to 10.8V (1.80v PER CELL) Total capacity was 74.98Ah. (In the screenshot its not quite done!)

So whats wrong with them?
Unlike the 3.5 to 4mOhm MK gel, they are almost 6mOhm. So you get greater voltage drop under load, and you get to use less of your Ah before the chair stops.
And unlike the (correctly charged) MK gel, you get around 250 to 350 cycles at best at 80% DOD. So they will last half as long.
And since they are 2/3rds the price that makes no sense...

But they are what they are!

[LearnerDriver]

Hey Burgerman, did this chair turn up for you. The reason I ask is that I went to look at your link and it says it has been relisted. Just hope you haven’t been messed about by the seller.

[Burgerman]

Its sitting 10 feet away. Complete with a years warranty, and a power centre footplate, and 10A charger. The charger will be junk...

If you look 2 posts higher, that is a DISCHARGE graph of the brand new (cheap) 75Ah batteries. I tested them to see what the real capacity was. I dont trust dealers to fit new... And go read!

And the whole page basically!

[Burgerman]

Those smooth 8"x 3.00 x 4 low profile tyres are on. They made a huge difference. Wit those fitted the mudguard/fender on the casters was then hitting the footrest first. So those are gone... The centre footplate can now go back at least 1.5 inches further than with the 9 inch caster tyres. They look good too. Function is much the same, but a little harsher. But this chair has rubber suspension damping on the front caster arms. So its not so bad as I epected. So a win!

[expresso]

Pic of the ithose tires ? Like to try them but on forks made for 9 inch. Have to see how they look.

[Burgerman]

On bed. Cant get to camera... They look great. Very solid. Fit perfectly. Used the 280/250 tubes.

[expresso]

sounds good - no rush - when ever you get a chance - i may need to use those also on my new chair - i will have center plate this time and i am sure i will have to move the seating system back - which i just done on my 646 - it worked out nicely - i didnt know how easy it was actually to have that done

i am sure the new chair will arrive same way as the other chairs - will have empty slots to move it back - chair will have 9 inch forks tires - grey - i was ready to change them with black same size but now may need to use the those you got also in order to move the seat back without interference i hope

[Burgerman]

Unfortunately lit by a torch (flashlight?) badly from the front. My carers pocket one.

The footrest needs a few minor adjustments, such as lowereing and leveling the swing down plates, to the end of that metal bar. And the rear rims, and tyres need a huge upgrade!

And that terrible cushion needs swapping for my proper Jay2 or Jay fusion gel ones. And the seat needs to be set to a 6 degree dump angle when at its lowest tilt position.

[Burgerman]

I might add that I removed the casters forks too. Not the slightest sign of grease on any of the caster stem, or spacers, or bolt. The centre retaining nut did have blue loctite. No sign of rust since everything is all shiny and new. Also 6 wheel assembly bolts into alloy, no grease... One winter would render those permanant. Also non on the bearings metal faces, the cenre spacer, the axle, or the wheel spacers. Or the axle bolts.

All squeeky clean, shiny and bone dry. The very first time these see a humid day, or god forbit a bit of condensation in winter, they will go red rusty and seize in place.

So that just showed me that much of the chair needs to be dissassembled and every shaft, spacer, bolt, nut, and anything that moves, needs grease. Just like every chair I ever saw. Assembled with no care at all. They dont give a crap as long as it survives warranty.

So theres that!

About 6 hours work to remove every bolt, grease, and replace. Each rear wheel has 9 in it alone! And 10 if you count the centre hub nut... But if you want to keep it or have it so you can work on it at some future time this is all essential. And I do. Now you know why I have a 12V percussion driver. That should cut the time down to around a third!

[expresso]

yeah it sucks that it even has to be done - lucky for you - you can do it - time knowledge tools space etc, - thats all a bit much for me and many others i am sure - i take care of my chairs as in keeping them Clean - even my 20 year old chair looks better than some new ones after a few months of use from other users

i do it for myself - and they should last 5 years easy this way - and many more years after - by then should be doing a new chair -

those tires dont look so wide or flat - more rounded - i have a few sets of tires already - 9 inch - what i can do is wait till i get the chair - move the seat back - change my tires and see if the center plate clears it - being that i sit back some also - it wont be in the zero down position

when i moved the seat back on the 646 - first thing i checked was the swing aways - tilted chair till they cleared the tires - didnt take much - when i go sit in it to use it - i actually may tilt a bit more back to where i am comfortable - so it worked out great


new chair with center plate - will have to see but i feel it will be same situation - once i tilt to the riding position - should be fine - if it isnt - then those tires would be first step to fixing it - only step - so it better work in that case

[Burgerman]

Every small thing helps. Remember the footrest is not fixed angle. I choose the angle. These tyres with mudguard/feder removed allow that footplate to move back around 1.5 inches more. That doesent sound much. But it makes a huge difference. It means that you can sit comfortably, with any tilt you want, and always have a 1/2 inch minmum gap from the footrest. I will fit a mechanical "stop" at the point where it can go back further so tyres can never hit it. The mechanical stop will trigger the end of travel signal and the power will stop to the footrest motor automatically.

The tyres are slightly rounded slightly but still fairly flat. The photo is decieving. Look at the forward facing one on the far side. Steers good, no shake, just a bit more harsh as they have less sidewall and higher pressure. Way better than all those skinny 8 inch tyres fitted to mid drive chairs. And because its 3 inches wide it has a much higher load carrying capacity too. Stronger built. Rated for 60PSI too. Currently at 45PSI. The guard, fender, or whatever you call that thing will be shortened by 2 inches, so it no longer hits and replaced one day soon!

Since they always know that there would be a rear drive version. It beats me why they:
1. Made the footplate so stupidly wide and deep right where the tyres need to go.
2. Fitted 9 inch tyres and an even bigger/longer mudguard/fender that obvioulsy collides with footrest.
3. Fitted those front arms that are obviously too narrow for a centre footplate.
4. Fitted stupid swing away seperate leg rests that sit 9 inches ahead of the casters, with the seat 9 inches too far forwards as default.

Really. What are they "thinking"? The older salsa was better in many ways! But they did some of the same stupid crap with that too.

[expresso]

ok - will see - the tires i have now - since i get caster shake at times - with the larger rear tires - i have my front tires at 10psi - helps alot and not too low - its a strong tire also - kenda 280-250 they wear very well last a long time - so i got maybe 2 or 3 sets since i use them on my other chair also -

didnt think they would last so long - i have 2 or 3 sets of those and maybe 2 more sets of another kind - its more rounded also - Kenda are more squared last longer -

[Frank]

Hello Burgerman, did you move the back of the chair backwards yet? Is it difficult to move it backwards? Do you have to drill new holes? How do you find the chair? Thank you for the information.

[Burgerman]

Yes. No drilling. Dead easy.

How do I find it?

Its very similar to the salsa. But it would be since its now got similar CG, and identical electronics, motors, and seating/arms, feet positions and the same astronomical weight. And the same slightly less rigid feel due to the lift/tilt module. Its no sports car like my much more rigid/lighter BM2 chairs.

I have ordered the REMOVABLE single post arms, as the swing back ones are wobbly.
I have still got to tilt the seat back 8 to 10 degrees (dump) by adding a spacer to the seat to lift module, under the front edge of the seat.
Why? Because the seat normally sits at 0 degrees when the tilt is as low as it can go. And all of my chairs have a fixed amount of dump. I cannot sit at 0 degrees, its not comfortable. And because fitting smaller front tyres, drops the front of the chair a small amount. And adding the 120/70-8 tyres will lift the rear very slightly too. Which is yet to happen. So this results in around a 3 degrees negative seat angle. Thats actually a good thing for the LIFT. It means that as you lift, the seat moves forwards slightly, improving the anti tip CG.

Its programming is the usual comletely abysmal unsteerable mess. Thats easy to fix. Although I havent done it yet, Ride is smooth. Chair is a little longer than the salsa (between the wheels - wheelbase) and so its better outdoors/worse indoors than the salsa. By around 1.5 inches. So nothing huge. Subject to a single 1 hour test with only a few of the changes it needs to fine tune done so far. Because stuck on bed...

[Frank]

Thank you for your useful information. You say that the seat is 3° negative and have to fix that by adding spacers. Why do you have to do that when you can tilt as much as you want electrically?

Can you tell me approximately how much shorter the overall length of the chair is now?

All the best,

Frank.