New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k change!

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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 30 Nov 2020, 18:24

Because all those seat elevator/tilt modules flex about. Left right and back forth. While driving you want the seat fully down, and no tilt so its sat firmly on its base. It makes the chair feel far more rigid and solid. It also puts less stress on the actuators and seating mechanism as you drive over bumps etc.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Frank » 30 Nov 2020, 18:28

Now I understand, it makes sense. All the best.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby expresso » 30 Nov 2020, 19:22

thats all true - and everyone here including my chair is that way - it just takes the shock and has some give to it - mines cracked not long ago - after 5 years - now it was replaced - and i found out that they are warrantied for life - even if chair is 10 years old and you have it - they replace the whole unit - as they did to mines

i was not aware of this kind of warranty - but glad they did or else i be screwed - insurance soon wont cover this chair any longer - but the unit would still be covered
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 30 Nov 2020, 19:26

If you were to tilt the seat itself back with 2 spacers at the two front mounting bolts, you can have the tilt unit fully lowered while keeping the amount of dump you want. Thats taking the stress, and your weight off the mechanism. So leaping off a curb or hitting a few street ramps, doesent break or flex or damage it. On most the seat itself will be bolted in 4 places on top. You may need say 5mm spacers on the rear. And 25mm spacers on the front. You can use washers if you are rough! Or machined alloy spacers from eBay made to order if you want to do it properly. This also means you then get more total tilt angle. So if tilt was 45 degrees, you gain 5 to 10 degrees extra.

Also, I am considering shortening the two square tubes that you bolt the footplates onto. They can lose around 3 inches I think while allowing the plates to stay bolted on as they are now. And without stopping it from having adequate length extension. In my case they need to be 24.5 inches from seat plate to footplate (heel). At the shortest while seated. And around 6 inches longer when extended at full lift.
Those square tubes are the first thing that hits the front tyres. Because (designed by idiot) they are too wide apart and too bulky. That will allow another inch each side gap so the foortrest can go back another inch... Hacksaw! (Grinder). 10 mins once I have carefully checked that everything will still work properly.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 03 Dec 2020, 18:36

I took some JIVE wheels, and removed the rear "ring" that holds the tyre on. That lip that holds the tyre on is now cut off. Leaving me a 6 bolt 1 inch spacer for the Q700 wheels. That turns them from a 2 inch rim to a 3 inch rim. And on the Q200, to Q700 chairs tyre retaining ring bolts onto the front face. The new spacer fits between the wheel and the front ring. Making the wheel a deep dish 3 inch wide wheel.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 13 Dec 2020, 20:21

So far.

1. Bought chair and had the power centre footrest installed in place of the stock swing away ones.
2. Fitted smaller fat smooth caster tyrs, 3.00 x 4 but only 8 inch diameter. To give more Footplate space.
3. Which allows the seat to be moved back a little further. Chair now less nore heavy, and heels come back further.
4. Capacity tested new 75Ah cheap generic batteries, 74Ah actual. Will get lithium in spring along with salsa.
5. Widened the stock rims by 27mm to make them 75mm or 3 inches wide.
6. Fitted 120/70-8 "STEADY" tyres, and a puncture sealer filled 4.5 inch x 8 tube.
7. Fitted the complete wide wheel/tyre combo.
8. Removed front caster and rear mudguard/fenders.
9. Removed and replaced useless wobbly swingback single post arms with single post removable arms.
10. Arms still not solid enough, so will be adding TWO MORE uprights, so the are way stronger and solid! Not cheap.
11. That useless swing away arm thing is far, far too easy to move position AS I DRIVE causing several close shaves with cars and doorwars. I Ordered some rubber "washers" so that I can add them between the body of the swingaway and the understide of the arm and pull ut tight up with a clamp while I tighten positioning allen key to make it much more rigid. As it stands those things are dangerous. And too long...
12. Removed one of the knuckle extentions on the headrest as it looks far neater.
13. Lowered the back cushion by 4 inches,
14. removed every bolt that is easily accessible and greased them. Reassembled properly. Some were already siezed and getting locked in place. And this chair is 3 months old and never driven other than to test. Why dont they buy a tin of grease? banghead

To DO:
1. Remove seat, add spacers to lift the front edge to have 6 degree "dump", when the seat is at its lowest tilt position. Right now the larger rear tyres and slaller front leave it at 2 degrees negative tilt. You can adjust the whole lift mechanism and seat in one go to give the desired dump. But that means as you LIFT the CG is moved rearwards. Right now it does the opposite which is what we want! Makes the chair less "tippy" as the CG moves forwards as you get higher up.
2. Sort programming. Right now its undrivable.
3. Do something with the set of switches on the left arM. They stick out past the arm, so will be destroyed every door frame. And whatever I am doing hits them and starts moving something. So no good! May just remove them.
4. Fit bolt for tiedown in van.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 13 Dec 2020, 20:28

This is what I call fine tuning. To make a great usable powerchair from a stock as delivered almost unusable one.

I didnt include above the basic seat depth, width, foortrest/plates positioning angles, min and max extention, arm positioning and height, and how far back or forwards, back height, headrest positioning, joystick height and position, and anything else that bugs you because its wrong! Nothing major that the kid with a bike cant do for you.

All of this takes a day with a wheelchair tech that knows what hes doing and what questions to ask. Programming PROPERLY take a lot of fine tuning and must be done over a day or two minimum.

Whaen a chair is delivered ALL of this must be done properly if you are to be fully comfortable, in proper control, and happy with any new chair. So if the tech delivers a chair and is gone in 2 hours think again!!!
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 21 Dec 2020, 14:17

Seat dump altered.
With 120/70 rear tyres, and 8 inch x 300-4 front tyres you end up with minus a couple of degrees "dump". So with tilt set to lowest position it feels as if you are falling out of the front. I prefer a few degrees actual dump, when the seat is in the lowest tilt position for stability.

So I added a 28mm spacer to the front seat mount bolts, and a longer bolt. And an 8mm spacer to the rear bolts. with similar longer bolt. Now sits at around 5 degrees dump when at the lowest tilt position. Simples!

I could have dione this by adjusting the seat elevator/tilt module mount. It allows this. But then rising up moves the CG back. Not good. This way it actually moves it forwards, which is good for anti tip stability when high up.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Frank » 21 Dec 2020, 15:25

BM By how much did you move the seat backwards? And by how much did you make the overall length of the chair shorter?
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 21 Dec 2020, 16:41

I moved the seat to the rearmost stock holes.
I never had the seperate footrests, as they fitted the single plate before delivery.

But once curb climber binned, the smaller tyres fitted, it comes back a few inches more. So actual measurement, no idea! Certainly looks much more compact.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 22 Dec 2020, 01:58

Soon as I get chance, after xmas, I will take a few pics.

It basically the same as the salsa now. But slightly longer wheelbase by an inch. So less good indoors, better outdoors. Although 8 inch tyres on front are harsher. It generally has reasonable 4 wheel suspension though so not a problem. And because the seat dump is done on top of the seat lift/tilt module its more stable when high up. So will be doing the same with the salsa. Make the lift move you forwards when activated, instead of back. While still having seat dump.

Its shorter because with seperate footrests, your heel must be able to miss the front caster as it turns 360 degrees. So even when facing the opposite way as you reverse. So your heels end up at least 6 inches further back. Once smaller tyres, and a few minor adjustments done.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Frank » 24 Dec 2020, 12:33

Hello Burgerman,
And an 8mm spacer to the rear bolts. with similar longer bolt.


Thank you for your updates. What is the reason for adding 8 mm spacer to the rear bolts? Did you widen the overall width of the chair? Isn’t that less good for indoors?
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 24 Dec 2020, 13:05

The 4 mounting bolts are not at the "ends". So if you lift the front the rear two mounting holes also need a spacer. A small one.

Wider overall is worse, yes. But my shoulders and arms are wider than the stock width by some anyway. So while it makes it wider across the wheels, it adds less to the overall width than it appears. And because all my doors are wider than this anyway. So for me its not an issue. For others it could be. Its less good in a van too. But I dont use the salsa or the Q700R chairs in my van. The Q700 and Salsa are both quite big chairs. Better outdoors than in if you have limited doorway or space. And both are very heavy too.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jan 2021, 20:26

To keep up... The salsa is better in a number of ways. But the Q700R can be "fixed" relatively easily. And a picture is worth a thousand words. Please excuse the junk and all the wires hanging from the lathe at the rear...

3 inch wide turf caster tyres, smaller 8 inch diameter. So that the centre footplate can retract further back. Heels between casters without collisions. Allowing the seat to move to the rearmost mounting holes on the lift/tilt module base mount. This means a rear biased easy steering chair. And its shorter indoors.

On unequal alloy spacers under te seat to give a 6 degree rearward seat dump. This results in a real 4 degree dump. Because the chair it tilted forwards by 2 degrees. Because larger tyres rear, and smaller front, gives a -2 degree forward sloping lift/tilt module. Thats good. It moves CG fotwards when lifted. that gives a negative forwards -2 degree overall chair, with 4 degrees seat dump at lowest position. Just as I wanted it.

Black accents to replace the grey ones...

Rear wheel rims have a 26mm wide spacer band (a rim half from a JIVE chair) in the centre to make the rear wheels 3 inches wide. And allowing a 120/70-8 tough scooter tyre to be fitted. This makes the chair in total 4 inches wider than its 24.5 stock figure.

4 arm uprights! The arms on these chairs can be mounted on the backrest and lift up. Or single post swing back. Or single post removable. ALL these options are weak, wobbly and unsuitable for transfering or presure lifts. So now it 4 removable uprights! Now they dont wobble and bend. You have to swap left to right, so they len backwards, and it JUST all bolts together with only a tiny bit of modification. A round blob on the arm top underside must be ground off. Took 10 seconds. A major improvement in rigidity. Still easy to lift up and off as needed.

And a little reprogramming. And the joystick no longer wobbles side to side on those horrid mounts. Theres a bunch of rubber 40/12mm washers crushed under the arm and on top of the swingaway. So it is still to change position. It stays put!
Attachments
Q700R-MODS.jpg
Note the 10A charger. On the floor among other junk! Its also rubbish.
WHEEL-WIDENED.jpg
Wheel made wider for fatter tyres.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby hank » 20 Jan 2021, 21:04

Looking good John :clap
How long before new armrests bug you being silver ;)
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jan 2021, 21:18

Funny you should mention that... :fencing

I was pricing up black anodising for 4 arms. But its actually 8 parts. And its not very cheap. Why would they sell a chair with black rims, black tryes, black frame, black footrest, black "accents" and put bloody silver anodised armrest uprights on it! :cussing

I have many questions. Such as why narrow the gap between casters? Why make the centre foortest so wide at the back where it will hit the tyres? Why make the seat lift wobbly? Why use such skinny tyres that are in fact overloaded? Why make 3 types of arms that are all weak and wobbly? Why program them so you cant hit a doorway? Why make a gyro standard on a rear drive chair? Why make 200 different backs? Why isnt the centre footplate the stock option? Why do they make al the rear drive chairs 12 inches longer with the seat over the front casters? Why do they fit lights so you can be seen, but not so YOU CAN SEE? Why do they make the swing away mounts so loose? Why do they still use lead bricks? Why do they use 8A or barely any better 10A chargers? Why why why. It winds me up that after spending a retail 12.5K new you then need to spend around 300 quid just to fix the arms! And another 400 for OEM programmer so it steers. And then wheels, tyres, and 2 days spannering and reinventing it.

Either way you can do all of this Q700R and make it a very good rear drive fully loaded powerchair without any major surgery. A few afternoons reconfiguring and good to go. And since it only cost me 4400 unused (3 miles). Plus a set of better tyres, and 202 for extra arms I cant really complain. Soon to fit some 200Ah lithium for summer. So even with my 20 stone, probably a real world 60 miles or so.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby hank » 20 Jan 2021, 21:28

Why don't manufacturers listen to people such as yourself banghead banghead :fencing
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jan 2021, 21:30

I have actually asked them. They say they do. Physios, OTs and end users. So it all beats me.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby hank » 20 Jan 2021, 21:33

Nice one :thumbup:
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby steves1977uk » 20 Jan 2021, 23:39

I have actually asked them. They say they do. Physios, OTs and end users. So it all beats me.


They're probably too busy drinking coffee/tea rather than trying to improve chairs for us users. czy :fencing

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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 21 Jan 2021, 12:17

I think they are asking the wrong people. They are asking the general public who do not recognise the possibilities or faults, and OTs that have all been trained in seating regarding what options are available and mostly regarding pressuse relief/sores or positioning.

Regarding arms, the REMOVABLE arms on the Sunrise Salsa chair are absolutely rock solid. Perfect for anyone that needs to lift or transfer with some weight on them. Shame they made this worse (much worse) on all their newer chairs with the fancy new seating.

I fixed mine as shown. At a cost of a little lateral thinking, some minor work, and 200 pounds extra cash...
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Frank » 22 Jan 2021, 10:05

Hello there, on the ordering form of the Q 700R there are these programmers, are these OEM programmers? Are these good to programme the chair? Is it recommended to order one of these?
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 22 Jan 2021, 10:38

Its not OEM. Only dealer. But theres a workaround that allows that dealer system to send OEM files to the chair. And to any other R-Net chair inc non sunrise chairs. So it can work as OEM as long as you have the easy to find OEM software as well*.

*(Not permobil - at least not garanteed to work, and with much stuff missing if it does).

If you want OEM version instead PM me...
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Frank » 22 Jan 2021, 13:39

Burgerman, by swapping the front tyres to 8 inch diameter tyres has that helped quite well?
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 22 Jan 2021, 14:01

Tyres alone allows around 1/2 inch extra clearance. They are not that much smaller but everthing helps. But removing that tyre guard/mudguard/fender you aleady gained around an inch. So 1.5 inches total gain. Both changes together give you the ability to move that centre footplate rearwards by around an extra inch and a half, maybe more due to the castor wheel 45 degree angle.That reduces the legrest angle closer to the chair. And so allows the rearmost holes to be used on the seat lift mount. So it means that overall, the CG is moved to a more sensible position. Combined with some radical reprogramming it makes the damned thing steer properly! And results in a shorter chair that works better indoors.

Take a look at the picture. The seating with my 18x20 cushions allows you to sit well back and it shortens the chair and takes much of the load off the casters.
It does mean that when the lift and tilt and recline are used together its quite close to tipping backwards. So...

Its got another advantage. This lift sits you pretty high up. Adding the 120/70-8 or 110/80-8 rear tyres lifts the rear by a small amount, the 8 inch front tyres lowers the front by a small amount as well. That all means that the chair and its lift are sitting at around 1.5+ degrees forwards. So as the seat lifts high, it moves you and so the chairs CG forwards by around an inch. That inch makes a lot of difference just when its needed most. But this means the seat sits at a -1.5 to 2 degrees negative angle when tilt is sat in its most forward/lowest position. So I added spacers under the seat mount bolts, to give it a plus 4 degrees "dump" when at lowest tilt position. As can be seen in the pic. download/file.php?id=14804&mode=view

So a bunch of small changes makes everything works well together. All the changes complement each other. You end up with a more compact, more manoeverable smaller length better balanced chair where you sit further back, that steers properly.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 23 Jan 2021, 09:41

Cant fing a pic of the 700 but the 500 has the same layout and seating etc. Heres a pic of why the swing away type legrests that most rear drives are sold with are the problem.

In order that your heels miss the caster tyre when rotated the opposite way, the footrest MUST be a long way ahead of the tyre. So your seat must also be moved forwards or you would have your legs stretched out in front at a shallow angle. Here comes my legs, here comes me... So you end up with the seat 3 or more inches too far forwards at least, meanig all your weight sits over the caster tyres, so it wont steer properly and its drive wheels are well behind you. That means it feels long, and ungainly indoors. And that the caster tyres are overloaded and they control where you are headded on a slope. It takes way more power(Torque, Amps) to turn in place and you do so in a larger arc. And you have your feet/footrests sticking out in the corners to hit every entrance and furniture as you manoever.

A CENTRE footrest, and a rearward seating position fixes all of this. And you wonder why rear drive is considered less capable indoors? THIS is why! Most are sold with stupid seperate legrests! Causing all the other problems.

A typical rear drive configuration. Note position of the front of the seat cusion in relation to the caster pivot or frame. And the footrest position causing whole seat to be forwards...
quickie-q500-r-powerchair-side.jpg


A centre footrest instead, and seat 3 to 4 inches further back, your feet themselves around 8 inches further back. Sounds insignificant? Its really not! It makes a massive difference.
Q700R-MODS.jpg



And exactly the same, only MORE SO with the 2017 Salsa powerchair detailed here. In fact this is a better chair as the casters are wider apart making this easier to do. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7455&start=600#p122818 READ carefully before scroling down!
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 23 Jan 2021, 12:01

One reservation.
Stock weight CG position, means 45% rear and 55% front weight bias. Mine is likely around 70% rear 30% front after moving seat/tucking footplate further back. Which was the aim of course!

But this Q400,500, 700R chair lineup, all use a beam as a hinge on the "rear axle" if you will. So that the chair can follow the angle of the ground that the heavy bias towards the front gives. The whole chairs angle just follows the casters. This prevents a rear wheel lifting where the ground is unlevel. But now the weight bias is over the rear! So the chair is trying to follow the narrow spaced lightly loaded front casters for chairs body roll angle. And it feels a bit weird. And its not a very stable roll setup becuse of the narror caster track width. So I am likely to bolt that rear beam into a rigid position and just rely on its 4 wheel suspension. It feels like you are sailing a boat right now! Too much "body roll"... They market this "Spirit Level Technology" as some good & clever suspesion thing. Its not! And it has nothing to do with "level" at all - it just follows the front casters. Its weird.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Frank » 23 Jan 2021, 17:37

The chair looks nice and compact. When driving the chair on a ramp is it still safe or it is tippy?
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 23 Jan 2021, 18:23

Its all a matter of degree. Its safe going up the ramp to my van for e.g. Is it safe on anything steeper? Maybe not. Depends how you do it and how steep. Its obviously more tippy than the nose heavy chairs. But thats the point! But everything is a compromise. How tippy is too tippy for you is your own decision. Considering that a more nose heavy chair which drives terribly like an oil tanker, doesent steer/zero turn reliably, and gives less traction on the drive wheels when on ramps or uneven ground, then for me that compromise is well worth it. Thats why I do it.

You can only try things and see what works best for you. Test! Its all just nuts and bolts. Regarding tippyness, the HEIGHT of the CG makes a large difference too. So a top heavy chair with say, seat lift/ recline module, power legs, and thick seat cushion, that is some 90KG heavier up top than a chair without all that is always going to have less lateral and longditudinal stability. And less rigidity. And of course wheelbase differences between different chairs makes a difference too.

Not only that but programming response, and user driving skills make a huge difference too. You can control a very tippy chair quite safely, via skill and joystick if its programmed correctly and balance it as you drive. Or not. It all depends on you! I posted this vid elsewhere regarding snow so still have the link handy... But it shows what I mean. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/snow3.mp4 And yes the footplate is bent... You can balance and control a properly set up chair and it gives you the feel, so you know what is too steep.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Frank » 24 Jan 2021, 11:14

What I do not like much is the display of the control box. I see it too high and can be a hindrance at desks.
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