Permobil OBP

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Permobil OBP

Postby Es* » 13 Jan 2021, 16:23

Hi all,

I understand that Permobil is widely hated here, and I understand why, but I have good reasons for both having one and not hating it. Indeed, some aspects of it I love enough I'm disinclined towards anything else. That said, I'd like OBP to work.

I have an r-net OEM dongle on loan. Whatever I do, the darned thing doesn't want to help me out! I am getting screens saying 'OBP error' when I try to enter any kind of programming, including when the dongle is plugged in. When I tried to upload, via a windows machine, a file which included OBP being enabled the entire chair wouldn't operate and I had "Unknown Module 3, Module Error, 1201". Reuploading the original file and it was back to normal.

All ideas welcome. If they involve a windows machine, it'll be a while until I can try them as I only have a mac and lockdown...

Ta!
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 13 Jan 2021, 17:15

Well now you are starting to understand why many here avoid permobil. Its not that anyone hates them. Just extremely difficult and twice the price! You will never get a permobil OEM programmer for PC and this is what you will need.

I dont know for sure what the problem is in your case specifically because I cant see and test for myself. Permobil isnt really R-Net but a hybrid R-net and permobil one off system at least on reasonably new chairs. But be aware that unlike other chair manufacturers, that use normal generic R-Net parts, permobil do a lot of trickery... They use joysticks that have specific firmware that may not allow OBP at all, or even cut down versions with smaller screen and buttons missing that need their own programming software. Even OEM level programming or Dealer level via a PC may not work, or may restrict you to certain options. Unless you use the correct permobil version of the OEM software which you cannot get. And instead of using the R-Net stability, gyro, seating and lighting modules, they roll their own hence the errors you see with generic R-net software.

I am not 100% sure this is you actual problem here. As I cannot check it out myself. But I would be fairly confident that this is the case. Although nothing works properly on a mac and I am surprised that you got it working at all! But if it correctly uploads the origial file that is probably not the issue.

For example. Here is a R-Net joystick compared to a similar joystick used on many permobil chairs. Its built by the same company specifically for them in a cheaper form. Less bright smaller screen, 2 buttons missing. Generic R-Net software may not allow OBP to be enabled or it may not be possible at all.

IMG_20200930_194954_4.jpg


And you will find that they also use their own seating, lighting, gyro, stability modules that are not R-Net compatible. These are all called modules. And this may be what your R-Net programmer doesent understand.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Es* » 13 Jan 2021, 17:28

I understand fully, and I understood before, but the ideal and the real world are often so far from each other ...

Thanks for that pic. I actually use an Omni and a smaller/lighter joystick, rather than the pod like in your picture. I'm pretty sure it's the exact one from P+G/Curtiss as it arrived with all their paperwork. It does have the 'ICS' permobil specific thing in it too, though. I'll cross my fingers someone else comes along with an idea...
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 13 Jan 2021, 17:33

I dont think they can. I dont have a permobil. Only going by what others have said. But the only way appears to be a permobil OEM programmer. Nothing else can understand the permobil bits properly at least on most permobil chairs. And OBP may even then still be unavailable. Depends on the permobil firmware. It may be in your case with your joystick. And even they deny there is one. The tech certainly wont have one. And wouldnt understand it if he did. They are parts swappers. They tie you down.

So it appears you need the OEM permobil specific PC software and OEM dongle.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby swalker » 13 Jan 2021, 22:00

I purchased a used chair with an Omni device. Like you, I thought it would be great to enable On Board Programming (OBP).

I only have a dealer level dongle and was not able to enable OBP with that. Thanks to this forum I know how to hack the OEM settings using my dealer level dongle. That did not allow me to enable OBP either.

I asked my local dealer about enabling OBP and they confessed to only having a dealer level dongle as well. They said it was not possible to enable OBP, regardless of dongle, though. I would not put too much stock in that opinion, because those folks don't seem to know much at all about programming.

I don't know if it is possible to enable a Permobil Omni to use OBP, even with an OEM dongle, but I gave up on it.

I do all my programming through my dealer level dongle, which works well for me. I don't need to change programming very often, so it is not too much of a problem to connect the dongle and laptop to the chair when the need arises.

Steve
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Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby woodygb » 13 Jan 2021, 23:12

These MIGHT help.
Reprogramming OBP menu v2.zip
(142.4 KiB) Downloaded 82 times

Programming a replacement Power Module v3.zip
(571.71 KiB) Downloaded 51 times

Release Log Rnet Programmer Dealer.zip
(92.2 KiB) Downloaded 50 times
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby woodygb » 13 Jan 2021, 23:23

Permobil dealer software is available.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jan 2021, 03:31

Yes but Dealer doesent allow you to set OBP which is what he wants to do... I cant think of a way to do it.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby expresso » 14 Jan 2021, 05:33

years back i dont recall what someone wanted done on there chair - i figured no problem - i can do that easily - i connect my dongle and did what i was suppose to do -

then some other functions didnt work - that i didnt touch at all - it was a pain - i put back the original file and all worked as before

i left it alone - F3 chair -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jan 2021, 08:46

So again, permobil stuff = problem.

To me, having OEM or better access is the number one parameter - the very first and most important thing - when looking for a new chair. Having tested and tried a great number of chairs over the last 23 years. NONE of them steered properly and all had at least some walls or other issues set or some other problem that couldnt be sorted with DEALER level tools. So Manufacturer/service/OEM access is my No 1 parameter. If I dont own, or cannot get, an OEM or better programmer FIRST then thats simply a dealbreaker. A chair I simply cannot live with at any cost. :thumbdown:

Theres around 5 or so other important parameters for me too. But all the rest are mechanical/physical things. And some can be adapted or "fixed" after the event. So choose very carefully. Obviously this rules out all permobil chairs at a stroke. And all the Pride Quantum chairs too. And any chair using a weirdo setup, like many myra chairs. And anything that is using a bespoke system...

Any manufacturer that uses stock R-Net stuff, no problem. Or Curtis instrument stuff. Any manufacturer that uses older stuff like PGDT Pilot Plus, or Dynamic DX or DX2, or even the LiNX systems (theres now a fix at a reasonable cost for at least todays version) are all OK. But of all system, generic R-Net is prefered. And fortunately used by many manufacturers inc sunrise/quickie that my own 2 latest chairs use.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jan 2021, 22:09

If theres a way, and its possible please enlighten us. Here! Thats what we are trying to find out!

I dont have a permobil. But everyone here says they can't do it. So why hide it?
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby expresso » 16 Jan 2021, 22:15

maybe its hidden in a different location from the drop down screen on the left ? compared to Generic R- net -

i dont see why that would be such a big deal to not let a user get to OBP - most chairs come with that enabled from new - at least mines did - Sunrise chair
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 16 Jan 2021, 22:23

Because permobil think they are the only ones safe to touch programming. After all we are all weak minded! Its comes with disability...
Maybe you can enable it. I cant test that because I dont have one. I did think about unplugging the other modules so it lets you load the setting to only the power module and joystick. You can tell the program to enable OBP as well as to IGNORE missing modules. So if the problematic permobil modules were unplugged first what would it do?

Dont blame me if it all goes pear shaped though! I dont think you can brick it. Just reload the original if it doesent work.

Also did you read woodys links? download/file.php?id=14763 - set controller personality?
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 17 Jan 2021, 02:59

But thats what he is already doing? As far as we can tell. Thats how we all turn on OBP for every brand chair.
The problem is that the chair will not let him write the modified file back to the chair. We know that the OEM software will not write the file. But the DEALER level permobil or generic should. But he gets a module error when writing. And then no OBP working.

It doesent recognise the gyro/stability or seating modules because they are not r-net. They are permobils own grown version.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Es* » 27 Jan 2021, 13:38

Thanks all, between this, the PM's (thank you) and a lot of trial and effort... I have OBP working. Horrah.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby woodygb » 27 Jan 2021, 13:41

Care to share the solution?
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Es* » 27 Jan 2021, 14:02

Changing the 'personality'
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Es* » 27 Jan 2021, 14:07

Which is on one of the top drop downs, rather than in the main thing. I found details of how in one of the docs you sent me. I've still not managed to get a .exe of wheelchair builder (only the 'lite'). I seem to have all I need, though.

Now, I just need to try and work out the best way to programme a FWD, particularly one with a lightened joystick. I shall get searching this forum for advice on that.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 27 Jan 2021, 16:35

On FWD theres not much you can do. Because its not a stable platform. In order to maintain control at speed it needs the gyro and it needs it turned on. And that takes over from your joystick, and more importantly it prevents you setting up a high turn acceleration, turn deceleration, at high and low speed. Or it becomes massively sensitive/jumpy. So its one or the other.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Es* » 30 Jan 2021, 18:51

I understand the laws of physics limit FWD in some respects, but they also mean it does really well in other areas that mean a lot to me. There has to be better and worse ways to programme a FWD?

It also matters a lot to me just to be able to organise things like what's on each screen, in what order, which now I can, even before adjusting driving parameters.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jan 2021, 19:09

Theres no way with front drive. You can try to disguise whats going on, but you cannot defeat physics. The problem is that this disguise takes away the power that you wanted to control the chair. Think about this. The GYRO system has needed to add say 85% right turn command to stop the chair from spinning out as you turn left. That leaves YOU just 15% of the available control. And theres times when it can reach 100% leaving you nothing. And at times such as accelerating while turning, or steering at speed quickly then the stability system takes away all of your requests... So it doesent do as you expect.

Worse, when you have a gyro needed to disguise the physics so it is stable, it also increases turn acceleration. So you must set a lower turn acceleration/deceleration in the speed section, or the chair is very violent. When you do this you lose that nice linear control and give it up to the gyro. It takes over basically. So no matter what you do you cant fix it. So it always feels vague. And not linear.

I have a gyro/stability system that was fitted to my new rear drive Q700R chair where its isnt required. Why ft it to a rear drive chair? So you can use non proportional controls like head switches. And make the chair go in a straight line over bad surfaces. Its not required for stability as rear drive is naturally directionally stable.

As such It drives 100 times better with the gyro turned OFF and turn acceleration settings and turn deceleration settings turned up to 100. Total linear direct proportional predictable control. You simply forget about controlling the chair completely. Its natural. Goes where its told without delars or accelrations. With gyro set to ON, no settings work well no matter what you try. Its always weird feeling. So aiming for a gap and changing direction at speed to hit that gap means you are never quite sure... It makes things much more unpredictable. On a front drive chair its the same only much worse. So you are basically stuck. Its the compromise that front drive brings. Its not that theres a programming "fault" as such just that you can only paper over the instability problem so much. And at the edges, when properly programmed with the walls removed etc to give proper linear control those cracks just re-appear... And it drives horrid...
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Es* » 30 Jan 2021, 19:12

In another post you mentioned reprogramming someone else's FWD, who was busy replacing permobil components with native R-net. So, for that, what did you go with, to minimise the downfalls of FWD? Or did you just set it up so it will no longer drive at all and consider that an upgrade?! :fencing
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jan 2021, 19:25

I didnt reprogram it. He kept the permobil 120A power module. And the joystick. He just junked the permobil own design seating and gyro/stability stuff as it wasnt working (errors) and he had a R-net gyro module already.

He replaced the permobil stuff with an R-Net gyro, and an r-net advanced seating module. And borrowed a sunrise front drive chairs programming directly. Then and still is messing around to configure the seating settings to suit the permobil. So the same physics, and gyro issues will still remain.

Plug and play. Less wires. Way smaller. No problems!
CxSM https://www.cw-industrialgroup.com/Prod ... ing-Module
Gyro https://www.cw-industrialgroup.com/Prod ... yro-Module

Both are small. Plug directly into the R-Net bus cable. Programmed with the Sunrise R-Net OEM software.
Exit big expensive bulky box of DIY Permobil made stuff that always goes wrong judjing by the posts here.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Es* » 30 Jan 2021, 19:28

Thanks, I intend to do similar. Where did he get the sunrise settings from?
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jan 2021, 19:35

A front drive youQ chair I think. A salsa front drive or any front drive - all will work. Doesent much matter, any chair thats not permobil with front drive that uses the r-net gyro will give you the gyro and front wheel drive starting settings. I sugest a front drive Q500F or Q700F file would be the best option as that has the 120A power module (Q700F) as well. Less to correct. You would just need to change motor compensation, and seating setup.

Also you could set the default new in the software. Then configure the gyro yourself. Theres a gyro PDF tech file that explains how.
For seating you will need to configure it yourself.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jan 2021, 19:57

Gyro from page 151...
http://sunrise.pgdrivestechnology.com/m ... 981-14.pdf
Directly below that the CxSM...

Seriously if you want to learn about the R-Net system, and what it can do, how it works, and how to configure or fix it this is the best way. I practically learned this over the years. It tought me most of what I know about r-net. Its by far the best and most flexible and configurable system on the market. Bt takes some understanding. Do yourself (everyone interested) and read this at least 10 times end to end.
http://sunrise.pgdrivestechnology.com/m ... 981-14.pdf

It has everything you need to just buy the generic parts and plug together a complex system and properly program it. EVERYTHING!!! From scratch.
Note, this does not include permobil seating, stability or gyro systems. Nobod knows how those work. Least of all permobil it seems.
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Es* » 30 Jan 2021, 20:04

Thanks, I'll try and get one off one of those sunrise chairs. I have the manual, annotated, already. Thanks!
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Burgerman » 30 Jan 2021, 20:30

Anyone on here with dealer or OEM can email you a copy of their programming file as long as they are not permobil, and have a front drive chair with a gyro. Note that not every front frive does have a gyro.

Theres 3 methods of stability control in front drive chairs.
1. Advanced Electronic Stability Control - which uses the motor current change as a front drive chair starts to swing around, to correct this via software. Does it work? Never tested! I doubt its very good... Many things change motor current. Basically its an increased motor compensation only at certain times and only on turn. No module needed. Just enable in the programming software on front drive. Can be used with 3 below...

aes.jpg
AES software only looks at motor current changes. You can enable this here!


2. Gyro. The best way. It includes a gyro (2 actually) and accelerometers etc in one tiny module. It controls direction even at .1mph. It can drive a chair straight across a sloping surface etc. Makes a chair feel weird though. Not for control freaks like me. It removed feel and feedback. But for front drive this is best and what most manufacturers use. Its akin to flying an aeroplane backwards. The gyro tries to keep the unstable FWD wheelchair going forwards while the physics wants it to swap ends violently. https://www.cw-industrialgroup.com/Prod ... yro-Module

3. A stability "anti spin out" module.This is not a gyro and has only the accelerometers. I never saw one yet. So cant comment! Seem to be rare. Probably works to stop spin out only. It needs the software "AES stability" enabled as well for best results. This is more a, ohshit its spinning fix. https://www.cw-industrialgroup.com/Prod ... odule-(ASM)
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Re: Permobil OBP

Postby Es* » 31 Jan 2021, 15:40

Thanks loads, that's really helpful. I have impaired hand use so am not a control freak in precisely the same ways as you; I think this will suit me well. Ta!
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