Gel vs Lithium Batteries

[Burgerman]

XLR and the chairs thin loom isnt the best way to charge even at 1A because it adds resistance, When charging the charger voltage may be just a 10th of a volt different to the battery voltage towards the end, but .5 volt low when charging at say 5A. So you get the wrong charge curve which can increase charge time by a lot. And we dont have long enough as it is.

So... All of my chairs charge by a Anderson 50 connection. This has a few big advantages.
1. it allows me to charge FAST at anything up to 100A as I come back from the airfeild where I fly my planes etc. The grass eats up lots of Ah over half a day!
2. it allows me to charge my chairs with a big chunk of Ah several times during the day as I spend a few mins checking mail or eating. I charge at 50A from a poweer supply, set to the correct voltage. This wont give a complete charge, that still takes forever. It does lower the average Depth Of Discharge (DOD) enormously over a day or a week or whatever. And while you may only get 10 deep discharges from a cheap battery, or 100 from a gel battery, you might get 10k cycles from a battery that never gets discharged deeply. So your battery will last a hell of a lot longer!

Can you charge at 8A yes.
Most chairs with a decent control system, can charge at 12Amps max with those XLR connectors. The battery doesent much care what current you use. As long as you dont exceed the 14.1V max at room temp for gel. Or 14.7V for something like the Odyssey pure lead AGMs.

As you charge, the actual Amps the battery takes from a charger or power supply falls. When it stops falling, its charged... Thats usually somewhere between 1/100 of its rated capacity in amps, for a crappy cheap and abused sulfated battery. And 1000th of C (Capacity) in the case of say an MK gel. Or 8 hours at this elevated 14.1 or 14.7 volts level. So I set my PL8 charger for e.g to 14.4V (a cheap AGM Battery) and to 1000th C termination current. (that means 1000th of its 75Ah. So termination was set to 75mA. And we get this as the result. Note that its already taken 11 hours, and we are not yet down to the 75mA point. This was my Q700R chair.

VOLTS v time.

Shows charge volts while charging at 10 Amps. It rises to the CHOSEN 14.4V

CURRENT. Amps...

Note AMPS. Current v time (12.5 hours now) has dropped to 175mA. So some time still left to go... Still falling. And this is with a 10A charge. The idea that you can fully charge a lead battery overnight is incorrect! These are new batteries. Current still falling. But 12.5H is long enough at his voltage... To FULLY saturate these batteries took a lower voltage (13.6) to lower gassing and recombination which eats power, and another 7 hours or so.

[Burgerman]

The above was CHARGED and monitored by the PL8v2 on my PC as it charged.

The charger can also be used to monitor OTHER chargers!
In this case, a member here used one to monitor his invacare mobility charger. This might give you some idea quite how eratic and uncontrolled they are by comparison! This graph SHOULD have been the same accurate shape as mine above.

And since he was charging gel, should never have exceeded 14.1V.
And this charger does gog knows what! But all of it is wrong. And the battery isnt properly charged. This is TYPICAL of a mobility charger. I tested a few! I normally toss them in the bin.

Remember, the absorption stage normally takes aroud 8 hours and should be at a steady 28.2V on the yellow graph! The only part it got right was float. Around 6 hours too soon.

[shirley_hkg]

Guys here are right. Do not spend on lead battery any more. Go lithium , if you are serious wheelchair driver.

PL8 is great. While its absence , BMS doesn't mean a must avoided . Know its pros & cons , and you will find it indifferent to your good old fashion recharge method .

https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... a&start=60

[wes4dbt]

Ok, you convinced me, I should get a proper charger for gel batteries.

What a major pain in the arse.

I thought, I'll just Google "24v gel battery charge" or "24v duel mode battery charger". I spent hours basically looking at the same thing I got now. Found a couple "duel mode" but could never find any specs on the max voltage or float voltage in each mode.

At Battery-charger.com they say they can set the voltages to what you want but they don't actually sell directly, you have to find a distributor. I called them but got a recording. I don't trust that if I call some company I find online and ask if they would set the voltages that they actually would, I wouldn't know.

I'm not willing the rewire my battery charging system, I'm sticking with the XLR plug. So, I guess for now I'll just wait and see what happens with these new batteries. I've been thinking about getting a chair with 24's, this might be the push I need to spend the money.

I do appreciate all the information that you provided. Thanks

[Swan T.W.]

Ok, you convinced me, I should get a proper charger for gel batteries.

What a major pain in the arse.

I thought, I'll just Google "24v gel battery charge" or "24v duel mode battery charger". I spent hours basically looking at the same thing I got now. Found a couple "duel mode" but could never find any specs on the max voltage or float voltage in each mode.

At Battery-charger.com they say they can set the voltages to what you want but they don't actually sell directly, you have to find a distributor. I called them but got a recording. I don't trust that if I call some company I find online and ask if they would set the voltages that they actually would, I wouldn't know.
Victron IP 67 [12 amp] or IP 65 [8 amp] Smart chargers would do what you need. They can be set for Gel or AGM.
I'm not willing the rewire my battery charging system, I'm sticking with the XLR plug. So, I guess for now I'll just wait and see what happens with these new batteries. I've been thinking about getting a chair with 24's, this might be the push I need to spend the money.

I do appreciate all the information that you provided. Thanks

[wes4dbt]

Victron IP 67 [12 amp] or IP 65 [8 amp] Smart chargers would do what you need. They can be set for Gel or AGM.

I went to the Victron website and none of their IP 67 or IP65 models had a gel mode. They all charged to 28.8. Maybe they don't make the model your talking about anymore. Or did I go to the wrong site?

[Swan T.W.]

Victron IP 67 [12 amp] or IP 65 [8 amp] Smart chargers would do what you need. They can be set for Gel or AGM.

I went to the Victron website and none of their IP 67 or IP65 models had a gel mode. They all charged to 28.8. Maybe they don't make the model your talking about anymore. Or did I go to the wrong site?

Go to the downloads to get Victron Connect.

[Burgerman]

They have a custom user profile. You choose the right parameters to suit your battery.

[Burgerman]

Ok, you convinced me, I should get a proper charger for gel batteries.

What a major pain in the arse.

I thought, I'll just Google "24v gel battery charge" or "24v duel mode battery charger". I spent hours basically looking at the same thing I got now. Found a couple "duel mode" but could never find any specs on the max voltage or float voltage in each mode.

At Battery-charger.com they say they can set the voltages to what you want but they don't actually sell directly, you have to find a distributor. I called them but got a recording. I don't trust that if I call some company I find online and ask if they would set the voltages that they actually would, I wouldn't know.

I'm not willing the rewire my battery charging system, I'm sticking with the XLR plug. So, I guess for now I'll just wait and see what happens with these new batteries. I've been thinking about getting a chair with 24's, this might be the push I need to spend the money.

I do appreciate all the information that you provided. Thanks

Now you understand at least part of the problem. Unless you spend a lot of money on a custom user programable charger its almost impossible to even buy a charger. NON of them quote the specs you want to know. And if you contact them they are usually just as clueless.

This is why I am using adjustable power supplies and my brain. Or the PL8v2. Or the chinese shirley supplied power supply/3 stage charger. You dont really need a PL8 unless for lithium. The 3 stage power supply charger is great. It is user adjustable as a charger, and also a 50A power supply...

Its on the left here! 0 to 60V and 0 to 50A. 3KW capable. It can be set as a 3 stage charger, or a power supply. To run the PL8 for lithium. Choices... Fast charging... And lithium capable with the PL8.

[wes4dbt]

Tried to check out the "shirley power supply charger" but didn't find anything.

I looked at the PL8 , not sure I can justify the expand with my current chair but when I go to a chair with group 24's it would seem reasonable.

[shirley_hkg]

Tried to check out the "shirley power supply charger" but didn't find anything.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7670

[Burgerman]

Dont be scared you can order one ready to go! With or without the fancy case.

[wes4dbt]

Dont be scared you can order one ready to go! With or without the fancy case.

Hell yes it scares me. I have a hard time using the remote control for my DVD player. lol

I'm to old and lazy, I'm more of a plug and play kind of guy.

[Burgerman]

Batteries. On the surface super simple right? Unfortunately the more you know or understand the more you come to realise that this is far from true. And the more you understand the more complex it gets.

Does it matter? Not if you dont care. Almost all powerchair uses and even dealers and manufacturers. And even charger manufacturers are hopelessly misinformed. 99% of the worlds chair users have no clue, charge them incorrectly, with the typical one size fits all crap mobility charger, run them too low, and then come on this forum complaining that the cheap junk undersized chinese lead battery they bought lasted 3 to 6 months and has no range.

Personally that USED to be me. In 97. I DID know better, but was letting the local NHS supply batteries every 8 to 9 months whenever they were ruined. Then I did a deal where they give me a cheque into my bank every 3 years and I buy my own batteries and chairs as I feel fit. So I swapped to GOOD batteries (odyssey), and proper charging techniques, and gave them a fast 30 to 50A charge for an hour while I ate in the middle of the day or before I went out AS WELL as a proper charge at night. I have batteries that now last 4 to 6 years. And then I switched to "expensive" lithium a decade ago. As it works out 4 or 5 times cheaper... Those are still functional.

[wes4dbt]

Interesting fact, earlier I asked how you found out how much current the motors draw,

I looked at the chairs specification. It uses a PG Drives controller. Its max capability is 70A. per side.

I couldn't understand how I missed that fact, I double checked the spec sheet and it wasn't there. Today I was trying to find some information on how much current the chairs charging system could handle and I came across the Air 2 spec sheet from the UK website. The UK spec sheet does show the controller. lol

Anyway reading the controller manual it says it can handle up to a 12a charger. Is it safe to assume that the rest of the chairs wiring harness can handle a 12a charger? Why does the chair come with a 5a charger????

The reason I was checking this out was a quality charger like the PL8 lowest current is 10a. I've noticed some of you guys talking about the PL8. Are there adapters available to take the output from the PL8 and use a XLR connector. I know this is not ideal but because of lack of hand function and difficulty in bending down, it would make my life easier if I could use the easily accessible XLR connection.














p

[biscuit]

10 milli Amps

[Burgerman]

Anyway reading the controller manual it says it can handle up to a 12a charger. Is it safe to assume that the rest of the chairs wiring harness can handle a 12a charger? Why does the chair come with a 5a charger????

Same reason it comes with a charger that will ruin your batteries. Its cheap.

The reason I was checking this out was a quality charger like the PL8 lowest current is 10a.

PL8 is completely user adjustable for any battery type or chemistry, and any termination current, and all types of lithium, lead, nicad, nmh, lithium ion, lithium polymer, lithium ion phoshate, LiHV, NiZn, LTO, and anything in between. It also charges from a few mIlliamp, 10mA in fact, so it can charge a watch battery, all the way up to 40A or 40,000mA. And can graph, charge or discharge and measure capacity of all your exis=ting batteries. It is also fully capable of running indoors from a mains power supply, a 24V wheelchair, or a 12V car. So it can charge a 24V wheelchair from your 12V car for e.g.

Its capable of more stuff than a £6k industrial test system and so is super cheap at the price! And much of the lead and lithium ion phosphate capability was organised by me with several years fighting their beta testers etc to get it to be as good as it is.

I've noticed some of you guys talking about the PL8. Are there adapters available to take the output from the PL8 and use a XLR connector. I know this is not ideal but because of lack of hand function and difficulty in bending down, it would make my life easier if I could use the easily accessible XLR connection.

Theres hundreds of options available. Mostly aimed at the hobby market. The XLR connectors come from eBay. The 4mm (SAFE) connectors come from eBay too. Then you use your soldering iron, to add a bit of cable! (1.5 to 2mm squared 2 core flex) and then you have your lead.

Note all the different connectors. I charge a mountain of things with these chargers.

[wes4dbt]

Obviously you've mistaken me for someone with wiring/soldering experience. Don't own a soldering iron, never soldered. But hell I'll try just about anything.

Let's see how well I understood what you said.

Wire, https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-CORE-ROUND-T ... w&LH_BIN=1

4mm connector https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-20Pc-4mm-G ... Sw-0RbHexM

XLR connector https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pcs-XLR-Male- ... SwuQpgUcV0

Also, is this the correct PL8 and is this the best site to buy it from. https://www.progressiverc.com/products/ ... gJ1PPD_BwE

Didn't you read the part of my previous post that said "I'm a plug and play kind of guy" lol

[Burgerman]

All good except the 4mm connectors.

You need these. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Sets-4mm- ... 2749.l2648

They are GOOD and dont melt at up to 40A the PL8 can do. Also they cannot be shorted out. Remember the other end is connected to the chairs 24V battery. So if you short the charger end ones together you will melt something as many amps will try to flow. Maybe the controller.

[expresso]

Obviously you've mistaken me for someone with wiring/soldering experience. Don't own a soldering iron, never soldered. But hell I'll try just about anything.

Let's see how well I understood what you said.

Wire, https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-CORE-ROUND-T ... w&LH_BIN=1

4mm connector https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-20Pc-4mm-G ... Sw-0RbHexM

XLR connector https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pcs-XLR-Male- ... SwuQpgUcV0

Also, is this the correct PL8 and is this the best site to buy it from. https://www.progressiverc.com/products/ ... gJ1PPD_BwE

Didn't you read the part of my previous post that said "I'm a plug and play kind of guy" lol

You can do it if you put your mind and effort to it - i was the same way - never done any of this - i had to practice for weeks trying to make a charge cable on cheap connectors - i almost gave up when somehow i finally got it - been doing it since - this is going on 6 years now - its a great hobby past time - relaxing for me also -

[wes4dbt]

Well, it does leave the question of a three prong plug and a 2 core wire, I imagine the third is an extra ground and chair will charge without it, but not sure. Also, don't know which prong is positive or negative.

Hopefully a simple soldering iron will work, hate to spend too much money on something I'll probably only use to make a couple of cables.
https://www.amazon.com/Soldering-Kit-Te ... 406&sr=8-9

Think I'll just use Amazon for the 4mm connectors https://www.amazon.com/Insulated-Multim ... 232&sr=8-5

[expresso]

soldering can come in handy later on also - once you get started - if you go lithium one day - you will need a good one for making other cables charge cables etc, -

i did same thing - got a reg. cheap iron - didnt think i would use it - but turns out i didnt like it - didnt work fast enough - good enough

so i ending getting the better one anyway - also i did a better job with the better iron - etc, at least for me it was worth it -

that 3rd connector is just to trip the chair - so you cant use it if charging - i didnt add it - just two wires are needed

you can use a volt meter to check which is pos or neg - its usually this way - as this picture - - a TIP - when you solder them - always keep a female end connected to the male end - goes for both ways - this way they wont bend or warp when soldering from the heat - then find out later it dosnt fit - dosnt line up etc, -

[wes4dbt]

Well, I'm confused now.

I notice the 2mm 2 core wire was from the UK and the shipping was ridiculous. But here in the US wires are sized by gauges (AWG). I found that 14 gauge was equivalent to 2mm squared but the amp rating is only 15a at 60C. To get to 30a I need 10gauge. But that's 5.2mm squared.

I want to make sure the wire fits with the connectors and the XLR.

[wes4dbt]

so i ending getting the better one anyway - also i did a better job with the better iron - etc, at least for me it was worth it

Well I don't kmow what qualified as a "better one". Seem like the next step up is a 75w with a digital display.
https://www.amazon.com/Soldering-Statio ... 94&sr=8-21

This one doesn't come with any soldering wire so now I got to figure out which type of wire to buy. You guys are killing me here. lol

[expresso]

i used 12 awg silicone wire - you cant charge that high with the XLR connector - your chairs wiring cant handle more than 12A max maybe

if you want to charge fast - you need to make 8 awg at least - connect them directly to the battery - and connect it there - then you can charge 20A etc, if lead - with no worries

[wes4dbt]

I just noticed the power plug for the PL8, will I have to make a cable for connecting to the 120 outlet?

[expresso]

Also i found it very hard if not impossiable to use 10 awg on those plugs to solder -

i use 12Awg and still was hard to slide the covers over the charge plugs - if you make them - add a fuse inline -

the stock cables from the charger site - come already with fuses - but are too short - - if make your own - just add 40A inline like the stock cables would have.

https://www.amazon.com/Rosin-Core-Solde ... 82&sr=8-16

something like this - i am not sure of the thickness - i dont recall which i have -

[expresso]

I just noticed the power plug for the PL8, will I have to make a cable for connecting to the 120 outlet?

No the PL8 gets plugged in the PSU - then the PSU plugs in your outlet -

[wes4dbt]

I just noticed the power plug for the PL8, will I have to make a cable for connecting to the 120 outlet?

No the PL8 gets plugged in the PSU - then the PSU plugs in your outlet -

So the PL8 is just a controller? I would have to also buy a PSU? if so, this is also new to me.

[expresso]

i said the same thing when i started -

yes the PL8 needs the PSU - to work -

its not that much more - i use used 24V models - $130 give or take - so far so good - had them for many years -

http://feathermerchantrc.com/

ebay - google - look around but to keep it simple - i got about 4 of those - different kinds but same thing - used computer PSU

theres also someone here shirley who gets users some items if he can or wants