New Bounder 300M 21st Century Scientific

[Burgerman]

I think that as long as there are no regulations that actively prevent your insurances buying rear drive Q500 or Q700 chairs, that theres a real market for some small enterprize to be importing container loads of sunrise medicals rear drive variants from the EU or UK and selling in the US as an independant supplier. Or Buying up the same levels of front drive chairs and doing the seat swap and other minor changes and selling those. Theres got to be a ready market there. The bounder is an ancient over sized clunky unrefined way to go rear drive with a huge ass and chains etc.

I am amazed that sunrise, do not see this themselves and make the full range of their chairs avalable to the US and canada. There has to be some law or rules that prevent it?

[expresso]

The tape worked. I don't mind the noise as long as it's not something rubbing or grinding. Its definitely made durable I really enjoy being able to romp over stuff at full speed with no worries.

5 years down the road I will most likely get another bounder but sense this one I have has offroad package and will still be running in 5 years I'm probably going to get another bounder but with the st3 motors and speed package with stock tires. But I see they only offer up to 8.5mph with the speed package now. How's yours do on hills. I have a good indoor mwd chair and the bounder with big tires for offroading. Now I need a bounder with speed package for driving the streets lol

i dont think they have the ST3 motors anymore to sell - Medicare wont allow it i believe - before they were mostly private insurance - now its billed to Medicare - coded etc, 8.5 is the limit they are allowed - plus you are better with the ST4 motors anyway -

i am not sure of this - BUT - you can buy the chain sprockets yourself - and swap them out - to get the faster speeds - i am not sure if you can get faster than 8.5 - or if they would allow you buy the size i have on mines and get 12mph on the ST4 motors

that would be better - IF not - you can get 8.5 at least - and its OK - you be better off - Alot better on hills -

mines is slow - on hills - i got used to it - and if you really want to count how long - its a min maybe - 60 secs - just not used to it that slow on hills - once over the hill - your flying

down hills forget it - anything goes - steeper it is - faster you go - i hit 15 easy on steeper hills - but at that speed - you may get a wheel shake - depends on the road -

good thing about that is the bounder is so heavy - it wont shake your whole chair - like my quickie chairs do -

you have alot more power than mines - i just have the speed - i would have liked those off road tires also - but i was told dont do it on my ST3 motors - well they wont sell me the spacer - i was looking forward to getting the spacer and trying them out one day -

but not at the expense of burning out my motors over them - i am mostly on the road anyway - how do you like the Rnet on that chair ?

[expresso]

I think that as long as there are no regulations that actively prevent your insurances buying rear drive Q500 or Q700 chairs, that theres a real market for some small enterprize to be importing container loads of sunrise medicals rear drive variants from the EU or UK and selling in the US as an independant supplier. Or Buying up the same levels of front drive chairs and doing the seat swap and other minor changes and selling those. Theres got to be a ready market there. The bounder is an ancient over sized clunky unrefined way to go rear drive with a huge ass and chains etc.

I am amazed that sunrise, do not see this themselves and make the full range of their chairs avalable to the US and canada. There has to be some law or rules that prevent it?

i dont think its insurance the issue - i cant think of what it can be - maybe they get feed back from the clinics and vendors here - and just want to push MWD and FWD - why dont know - they feel they know best maybe and RWD would be too much for many users - hills etc, less stable - i am just guessing

or they are just lazy - if they introduce a new model here - they have to pass safely tests with each model here - maybe they dont want to do that if the market is not asking for it - how would they know if the market is not asking for RWD - they are not asking the users - - they must be asking the vendors - - clinics for feed back and are not told that some of use want RWD here -

all just guessing - who knows the truth - someone does - but they are not talking

[expresso]

also alot of users are idiots also - they want small and easy to turn in small spaces - maybe the apts here are smaller tighter for some

and they cant handle a RWD in the house - etc, thats why those MWD pride chairs are a dime a dozen here - i get it - i see many of the users who have those chairs - they cant even handle that - they would have a harder time with a RWD for those reasons

but there are also many who want a RWD - but they dont say it - most take whats offered or pick from what they are shown - which maybe

3 different MWD chairs so they dont know better and choose one of them - not knowing they can choose a RWD but are never given the chance too

you have to do some research first and go knowing what you want - at the very least Demo the chairs you are interested in -

demo chairs are stupid also though - because all you get to do is sit in it for 5 mins - maybe ride down the hall - only on the bounder i went outside to demo for 10 mins maybe -

users have to speak up - when doing a chair - i am still changing parts off my new chair which was not configured correctly for me from the start - you have to be on top of it - and dont accept anything less than what you want -

[expresso]

the bounder is a different breed all together - you either like it or you dont - - since getting one - i like it for what it does well
in my case - speed - that was my goal - i didnt expect to take a huge hit on the bottom - but i did and i am ok with that now

its built like a tank - can be good - but heavy - but feels solid stable on flat ground and speed - cracks bumps etc, you feel them

like a sports car - stiffer more stable feeling - not mushy - its a fun chair -

the chains - i wonder if they will do away with them down the line - since now they cant offer the 12mph speed - and are using Rnet

i wont be too surprised if they removed the chains - but i dont think the Linx motors we use will be enough for the bounder -

they would have to design here own motors and build them real strong to handle the chair - that may be too much involved - but they may do that if they feel it will bring more sales now that Medicare is billable for the chair - they may attract more users that way -

many dont want to do anything - chains needs work - adjusting - cleaning -

[Burgerman]

They dont make their own motors now. They buy them from some antique motor maker. Those bounder motors are not huge powerful things. They are huge heavy things! To determine motor power you can look at many things. The first and most important is impedance. What setting do they use in the software? If its 30, they are very low impedance motors. Thats good, it means high torque, high efficiency, high motor current and low battery current.

If its high like 70 or 100 then thats bad. That means low torque, low motor current, high battery current, less efficient. And so less powerful. Also their own 120A controller was no more powerful than the R-Net 120A. It may have a far less refined driving and programming algo too. 120A is 120A however you look at it.

The typical sunrise AMT or Linix 4 POLE 6mph motor is 45mOhm. The 8mph ones can be 45 or even lower 35mOhm.
The 2 pole linix used on permobils and on sunrise are usually longer, and so slightly lower impedance than other 2 pole motors. At around 70mOhm. These are less powerful (less torque) and drain batteries faster.

Typical older 2 poles are dismal at anything up to 90 to 125 mOhm per motor. These are weak, low torque, and they eat battery Ah in comparison to the lower impedance typical 4 pole.

So what is the motor impedance in the bounders? Judging by the Ah you use per mile I think they will be WORSE and less powerful/less torque than the linix motors. Because they should give a better Miles per Ah due to no inneficient 90 degree gearbox. And they dont. So I suspect they are quite high imedance. Which means less power/torque than the linix motors you also have on your other chairs.

[expresso]

i dont have Rnet on my bounder so cant tell you -

my bounder is not great because of the tall gearing so my motors are not the same as the other slower motors with more power - bottom end


my control JS - i dont know how many Amps it does - it could be 120A - could be less or more - i asked a while back and was told it was more than 120A -

they are big and heavy - i cant see why they would be for no reason - so there must be a reason - i am not so sure others manufacturer there motors or other parts - thats the one thing about bounder - they make there own stuff in house - most of it i would believe - i am sure some things like tires and rims etc,

but the motors - i think they do them - if you can find who makes them- i had no luck on searching -

i dont see the reasoning of using a large heavy 6 magnet motor - if a smaller one would work - could be the chain - and no gearing inside ? bigger for heat reasons - who knows - only they do - they been making it that way since day one

[Burgerman]

they are big and heavy - i cant see why they would be for no reason - so there must be a reason - i am not so sure others manufacturer there motors or other parts - thats the one thing about bounder - they make there own stuff in house - most of it i would believe - i am sure some things like tires and rims etc,

but the motors - i think they do them - if you can find who makes them- i had no luck on searching -

They dont make motors themselves. They are a throwback to the big wheel early powerchair days. They also dont make their own 120A controller. It was an american company they used for manufacture for them specifically. I discussed this years ago by email in the late 90s.

i dont see the reasoning of using a large heavy 6 magnet motor - if a smaller one would work - could be the chain - and no gearing inside ? bigger for heat reasons - who knows - only they do - they been making it that way since day one

Becaue thats just how they started off. There wasnt much else then. Big can motors and no need to use a gearbox as chains ARE a gearbox. Its just the route they alone took. A chain or rubber toothed belts are cheap, and it allows you to adjust ratio yourself to get more speed/less torque or the oppsite. The ONLY thing that determines motor power is battery voltage and motor current and efficiency. And thats limited to 120A by the software inside the controller or everything will smoke up... Be it theirs or r-net. They are both 120A capable. Why are motors so big? Because of the design of the casing nothing else! Big doesent = more power. It CAN do, but not in this case. its mostly just bulky. It just = bigger and much older design.

[expresso]

i never said big is better or stronger or faster or what ever

just feel there must be a reason to make them big and heavy - i get it back then when it started - but even back then - what other chairs were around - was sunrise around - was invacare chairs around - or Pride chairs etc,

or was it just Bounder as the main chair company ? so they started that way and just never changed - but even that - back then - must be a reason to make the motors so big - and heavy -


there are the only company with a big motor that way - others back then didnt use there motors - i am just curious as to why they are so big and heavy - - have you ever seen on in person - opened one up - that would be interesting to see whats in there

[Burgerman]

A lot of air. Or thousands of bulky fine windings. That makes them less powerful. Fewer heavy turns = more amps, more torque, at lower motor volts. That in turn equates to less battery current. So they have just carried on from the days when thats all there was cheaply 30 years back. Long before people had mosfet controllers or any idea how this stuff actually worked.

Look at it like this. I can tell you that at the 120A available, and 24v from the battery that you have exactly 2880 watts. At maximum. So any 2 pole or 4 pole (or 10 pole) motor has approximately the same level of torque, provided they all have the correct gearing for the SAME roadspeed unloaded. So it pretty much doesent matter what motor you use as long as it is capable of drawing that 120A at stall.

If its high impedance and JUST pulls 120A. Then we have a problem as we speed up.
As it speeds up, the motor is also a generator. A 10 MPH motor therefore must generate 12V internally at 5mph. So while climbing or accelerating at this speed it will now only have 24V, -12V it already has, to use. So now its torque is halved. You slow on hills.

If its a lower impedance motor, then at half speed it may STILL pull all the amps. As it has a much lower resistance. So it will not slow as much on a hill, and will use less battery power at slower speeds. So low impedance = better everywhere.

[expresso]

so i guess my motors ST3 are high impedance since i get speed but not hills - but that can change if i change my gearing chains etc, to make it faster on hills and slower top speed

the other motors they offer for off road etc, and offer standard now on there chairs are the ST4 - which has more bottom end - limited to 6 mph 7.5 and 8.5 with the chain change sprocket etc,

and the ST4 motors are even larger in size overall than mines - heavier also

so whats the deal there - if i can get more lower end by changing the gearing - and the slower motor can get more speed doing the same thing

why have two different motors to begin with ?

ST4 motors is the only one they used when they offered the 48V version -

[Burgerman]

For taller gearing you would want the lowest impedance ones to get better torque and less heat.

Because the 2 are different impedance. Maybe not by a lot. But with 48V you would want the higher impedance motors probably. It depends on what you are trying to achieve and why. Could also be wound differently to get less rpm/more torque making gearing easier to achieve. Net result is probably pretty much the same.

[expresso]

they no longer do the 48v - and no longer do 12mph -

ST3 motors are the ones i have and you get those if going 12mph - set up

ST4 are slower and you get those for off road use and when they did 48V

since they are now working with the insurance to get there chairs covered - they no longer offer 12mph - they cant now - they no longer offer 48V - they cant now - so they revamped there company to get more sales - in doing so

they stopped doing there own electronics - you choose either Rnet - or linx now - you get the ST4 motors at 6mph standard - you can upgrade to 8.5 max -

my chair is no longer being made - my configuration - its now the 300M - configured to meet the insurance and get billed to them - in order to survive they had to do this - to me the 300M looks the same as my chair - the shocks are angled different - in the rear - thats all i see different - then the Rnet and ST4 motors standard

on my chair the electronics are theres - not sure what happens in 5 years when they dont service it any more - either they can rebuild my stuff - or have to swap it all over to Rnet - or new chair - New chair would be cheaper i bet at that time - in the meantime - i want to stock up on things if i can before that end date arrives

i have 4 more years i think

[fishinjunky]

the bounder is a different breed all together - you either like it or you dont - - since getting one - i like it for what it does well
in my case - speed - that was my goal - i didnt expect to take a huge hit on the bottom - but i did and i am ok with that now

its built like a tank - can be good - but heavy - but feels solid stable on flat ground and speed - cracks bumps etc, you feel them

like a sports car - stiffer more stable feeling - not mushy - its a fun chair -

the chains - i wonder if they will do away with them down the line - since now they cant offer the 12mph speed - and are using Rnet

i wont be too surprised if they removed the chains - but i dont think the Linx motors we use will be enough for the bounder -

they would have to design here own motors and build them real strong to handle the chair - that may be too much involved - but they may do that if they feel it will bring more sales now that Medicare is billable for the chair - they may attract more users that way -

many dont want to do anything - chains needs work - adjusting - cleaning -

They may do something like a cog belt as a option instead of chains i dont know just a thought. But i doubt they will move away from chains because they like not having a gear box to worry about. And the chains have been reliable for them. But never know like you said some people dont want to do anything even if its super easy. So they may to sell more chairs
personally i like the chains reminds me of riding dirt bikes when i was a kid. It really is a fun chair.

[fishinjunky]

they no longer do the 48v - and no longer do 12mph -

ST3 motors are the ones i have and you get those if going 12mph - set up

ST4 are slower and you get those for off road use and when they did 48V

since they are now working with the insurance to get there chairs covered - they no longer offer 12mph - they cant now - they no longer offer 48V - they cant now - so they revamped there company to get more sales - in doing so

they stopped doing there own electronics - you choose either Rnet - or linx now - you get the ST4 motors at 6mph standard - you can upgrade to 8.5 max -

my chair is no longer being made - my configuration - its now the 300M - configured to meet the insurance and get billed to them - in order to survive they had to do this - to me the 300M looks the same as my chair - the shocks are angled different - in the rear - thats all i see different - then the Rnet and ST4 motors standard

on my chair the electronics are theres - not sure what happens in 5 years when they dont service it any more - either they can rebuild my stuff - or have to swap it all over to Rnet - or new chair - New chair would be cheaper i bet at that time - in the meantime - i want to stock up on things if i can before that end date arrives

i have 4 more years i think

i think the only changes they made for the 300m are:

rear shocks (not sure the difference but theyre different)
added a chain guard
no in house electronics
6mph standard speed

if you get the speed or offroad package they then consider the 300M a 300 plus. You also get extended warranties with the 300 plus. My chair is considered a 300 plus.

You will probly be ok for years with the h-frame plus model you have. Just my opinion I think they will keep parts and repairs available. In their repairs form i see parts and service for much older models still available

[Burgerman]

I think spares are legally supposed to be available for 7 years. At least on things like that sold here.

[fishinjunky]

so i guess my motors ST3 are high impedance since i get speed but not hills - but that can change if i change my gearing chains etc, to make it faster on hills and slower top speed

the other motors they offer for off road etc, and offer standard now on there chairs are the ST4 - which has more bottom end - limited to 6 mph 7.5 and 8.5 with the chain change sprocket etc,

and the ST4 motors are even larger in size overall than mines - heavier also

so whats the deal there - if i can get more lower end by changing the gearing - and the slower motor can get more speed doing the same thing

why have two different motors to begin with ?

ST4 motors is the only one they used when they offered the 48V version -

i wonder how much of an effect changing the sprocket and chain would have on the torque of the ST4 motors. Im able to hit 8.1mph downhill. But id like to swap the sprocket and chain to reach 8.5 on flat. But ill probly just wait until its time for a new chair and get the 8.5mph sprocket and chains on it

[fishinjunky]

when the time comes for a new chair (5 years from now) im going to have a really difficult time choosing between another Bounder or getting one of Tom Kilmore chairs.
If i can save enough money in the next 5 years ill pay out of pocket to get one of Toms chairs shipped to the U.S. But if i cant save up enough then ill get another Bounder through Medicare.
for me the Bounder is the only Medicare covered chair that suits my needs where i live.

[fishinjunky]

I think spares are legally supposed to be available for 7 years. At least on things like that sold here.

gotya its probably the same or close to the same here

[Burgerman]

It in DIRECT PROPORTION to speed.

So if you were to change an 8mph to a 4mph one it would double the torque and control.

[fishinjunky]

It in DIRECT PROPORTION to speed.

So if you were to change an 8mph to a 4mph one it would double the torque and control.

i think i would rather keep the torque i have with mine reaching 7.5mph top speed on flat and 8.1 mph downhill. Than to give up any torque for an extra 1.5 mph

[fishinjunky]

i wonder if anyone in the U.S has had one of Tom Kilmore chairs shipped here?

[Burgerman]

My opinion. With a rear drive chair needing more torque to turn in place, and 8mph motor always feels like a step too far. At least if its programmed to actually respond when told to do so. It just feels wooly and lacking compared to a 6mph motor. As long as both are 4 pole. The 6mph one wins the compromise for me. So I always choose 6mph 4 pole now.

If you have your programming set up like my gran, or are half my weight 8mph may be OK. As long as you dont live anywhere hilly.

[F55]

when the time comes for a new chair (5 years from now) im going to have a really difficult time choosing between another Bounder or getting one of Tom Kilmore chairs.
If i can save enough money in the next 5 years ill pay out of pocket to get one of Toms chairs shipped to the U.S. But if i cant save up enough then ill get another Bounder through Medicare.
for me the Bounder is the only Medicare covered chair that suits my needs where i live.

Give your consideration of getting Tom Kilmore to build anything more thought. He's a cowboy and takes good money for a bad product.

[Burgerman]

I am still baffled as to why theres so little choice in the US. Its got as many people as the EU has. You would expect the same amount of choice. Someone must know why! Right now you have a choice of a bounder!

Maybe someone sued when they fell out or something.

[expresso]

Parts are 5 years - after that - its maybe yes or no - i am sure they can rebuilt what i have after 5 years - if not - then insurance would have to either get me new chair - or pay to replace electronics for Rnet instead -

normally its cost too much to do that - they just do a new chair instead - but never know - we see in 5 years or 4 now -

we have RWD - bounder - 500H - close but not true RWD - P222 if they keep it - invacare storm - and the V4 RWD - pride also has one

but the only good one to consider - would be either the V4 - or 500H - bounder also - but depends - in my case i love it for the speed -but would be -better all around with the ST4 motors and slower speed -

but even that - its a fun chair - but i dont want it as my only chair - i like the chains also - as long as you keep them clean - and adjusted

my Dirt Bike days were the best fun - nothing like it - i dont think you will loose much if you got 8.5 either way - mines is 12 - now thats a big difference - you dont want that - unless only looking for speed - and flat grounds mostly - or not your only chair

some steep downhills - 15 easy - and closer to 18 sometimes - at least GPS showed it - but it is very fast and almost too fast i felt sometimes

wheel shake starts also at those speeds- 12 they are fine - depends on ground -

i been using my new chair - to get used to it - and the comfort is welcoming - sometimes you dont want it too stiff etc,

once i use the bounder - i will have a smile for the speed - but take a hit on hills and comfort - i am comfortable also but have to watch those cracks bumps etc, you feel everything - i have to slow down for most of those - make it up later

[Burgerman]

we have RWD - bounder
Which is prehistory in 21...


- 500H - close but not true RWD
Has right controller and motors options. But its NOT rear drive its mid drive without real rear drive suspension.

- P222 if they keep it
Thats a decade or two old. We have had 2 generations of chairs since those. It too is an antique.

invacare storm
The new storm 4 like my one? Or the old storm that we havent had here now for decades?
This is the storm 4 explore. Below.

- and the V4 RWD
That looks the most interesting.

- pride also has one
But you cant program it. And its pride...

[Burgerman]

The storm once configured as a powerchair isnt bad other than its damned brushless motors. But they figured out I was right and thats now normal 4 pole. No more brushless disaster. So as long as you can put up with its new LiNX controlls should be OK. Personally I would retro fit R-Net... EXCELLENT ride. Better than any chair I tried. But it weighs 192kg.

[expresso]

bounder is an option for the select few -

invacare - we have the OLD version - i never really liked them and dont care for those - maybe he new version - if we get it one of these days - but i dont see it happening

p222 isnt bad - no need to change what works - its a fast simple basic chair - compact - and RWD - very light - only option is a tilt

this is an excellent indoor chair - none of my other chairs are as good and easy to use indoors as the P220 222 models

i will keep mines as long as i can - V4 is nice - i would demo one for sure next time around - but i would demo the 500H also - just to see
unless we do get the R version - i bet we wont

pride sucks balls for real - i had a R4000 for a month years ago - when i first seen it - i though ok something different - but when i had it and used it - horrible chair -

this was before i even knew about Pride and programming etc, from here - i have a friend who went for that chair 6 years ago - i told him not to get it - change - get the 646 - 636 etc, - he didnt listen - got the chair

worst chair he had - never used it - collection dust - still using his 15 year old crap instead -

we are very limited in RWD options -

[Burgerman]

Well as long as you dont mind the LiNX controllers theres also these rear drives in most of the world too. I am just posting so you know what exists. I know you might not be able to get these in the US. Although just as in the other rear drive options from sunrise and dietz and otto bock etc, I really am bewildered as to why.

Storm 4 explore = now uses 4 pole motors in place of the brushless. And we know why. And a full house one with everything is about 5.7k delivered with a little discount. Great ride. all 4 wheel suspension.
https://www.invacare.co.uk/power-wheelc ... wheelchair

And cheaper - only rear wheel suspension, and still a great ride, the standard storm 4
https://www.invacare.co.uk/power-wheelc ... wheelchair

And the HD version for more grown americans https://www.invacare.co.uk/power-wheelc ... wheelchair

And theres the avira 20, and 40, with either centre plate https://www.invacare.co.uk/power-wheelc ... wheelchair

Or those awful ones you prefer https://www.invacare.co.uk/power-wheelc ... aviva-rx40

And the slower indoor cheap version https://www.invacare.co.uk/power-wheelc ... 0-modulite

And the Bora https://www.invacare.co.uk/power-wheelc ... wheelchair

Theres also a couple of other smaller and folding ones like the fox etc.

Dietz Sango Advanced. Rover rates these.
https://dietz-power.com/advanced/

Otto Bock B4 Neuro https://www.ottobock.co.uk/wheelchairs- ... heelchair/

Otto Bock B4 - more entry level https://www.ottobock.co.uk/wheelchairs- ... d/juvo-b4/

And obviously theres the Q100, 200, 300, 400, 500 and 700 ones like I am currently looking at next to my bed...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10467&p=171033#p171026

So these could also be brought to the US by invacare etc... Since they obviously make them. So there some conspiracy to annoy you all it seems!