Permobil joystick & rapid charger issue

[steves1977uk]

Timm should get a Shirley PSU if he wants his batteries charged CORRECTLY! I use that on my Dietz chair and get a far better charge than the supplied 10A one.

Steve

Hey Steve when you say far better ??

Better in which way? Not tired to their 3rd party charger but just curious?

It's better in every way as BM stated above. Yes there's a little set up involved but I'm sure you'll be able to do this. Trust me, your batteries will thank you for this!

Steve

[HagStonesRock]

Heres the rear of mine. Note Anderson. Thats what I use for charging at high amps...
Also understand that in europe like most of the planet we all have 240V outlets everywhere. And this ten allows up to 0 to 60v, and 0 to 50Amps.
In the US you have low voltage 110, so will still be able to use it but current us half. So reduced to 0 to 25A.

Thank you so much for this post, the photo is of great help, and those few above related to it, for responding so swiftly, in great depth which is all super clear and incredibly helpful. Just the way I Iove and need my guidance/support with this sort of thing. You're an absolute star !
(I did try responding straight away but couldn't seem to get my post to be accepted by the system. Still learning here too clearly! Haha)

[HagStonesRock]

After having used a variety of chargers sold for WC use, I settled on the modified ZXD charger that SHIRLEY_HKG is able to get for us. I have two of them. Though it takes a bit of learning to program it, once that's done it's really plug-and-play for lead acid batteries. Then, if you want to use them for other things as well they are quite adaptable. These were originally telecom power supplies and are quite solid and reliable. The fans are noisy, and I further modified mine with quiet, thermostatically controlled, fans. Burgerman is quite right that it's handy to add an Anderson connector on the chair so that you can charge at much higher than 12A rate, though for lead batteries one still needs a long, low voltage soak to get them fully charged.

Both of my daughter's chairs now have 200 AHr LiFePO4 batteries though, and with her light use they only need charging once a week. Lot's more to learn should you eventually want to go that route, but as quite a few of use here have found, well worth the effort.

When you say adaptable I assume you mean they can also be happily programmed (with some effort to learn the process on our part) to charge MK gels for example?

Also having fitted fans and generally worked on PC's for years, can I assume it's no more difficult than this?

[LROBBINS]

When you say adaptable I assume you mean they can also be happily programmed (with some effort to learn the process on our part) to charge MK gels for example?

exactly

Also having fitted fans and generally worked on PC's for years, can I assume it's no more difficult than this?

Perhaps a little more difficult. From memory (quite fallible), for the fans I used I had to change the connectors and I ruined one because the wiring inside the fan is quite fragile - a bit of a tug and it's dead. Then, you have to fix the two temp sensors to the heat sinks and modify the programming so that the built-in temp sensor leaves the fan ON except at very high currents and/or temps so that the new sensors can do their more-proportionate thing. Somewhere on the forum I posted more details about how I set the temp response in the ZXD's EEPROM to do this.

[Rollin Positive]

I guess my point is a lot of you responding are not in the states...

The reason I mention it is because is we in the states on insurance, Medicaid and Medicare get or can get new batteries each year.

Most at no cost some at 20% with medicare or insurance paying 80%

So less then $100

One can get the new faster charging Permobil batteries if your chair is 2021 or newer, you can get generic or even MK each year

I have always gotten batteries each year on a set date.

Right now I an others are getting 15-18 miles per charge which is more then enough because again I am married so thats a lot of walking for my wife

Those of you that are single or no significant or no kids or grand kids or service dog users and others can and do roll 20, 30, 40 plus miles so I get the need and want to do lithium

The other issue is up till covid we flew each month so the set up from batteries to charger have to be simple, legal to fly and lightweight and compact to fit in a suitcase.

We have our 1st trip in a few weeks after 2 years of being grounded and I take a charger with me on long days just as a precaution so I can top off at lunch or dinner and add even more miles if I needed

The reason for the original post was Permobil tried to hide the issue of burnt joysticks from the 10 amp charger and instead of notifying potential impacted customers they waited till the customers complained

I reach out to the management of Permobil US and explained besides the joystick replacement and charger replacement they should also supply a new set of batteries

They said no because even the fact that the charger was shutting off to soon the batteries dont have memory and so it would not cause any issues later to users

*Note i still forced them to give me another set

These are like others 3rd party batteries from China and have a 85 ah rating and not sold on them

[Burgerman]

I guess my point is a lot of you responding are not in the states...
The reason I mention it is because is we in the states on insurance, Medicaid and Medicare get or can get new batteries each year
Most at no cost some at 20% with medicare or insurance paying 80%
So less then $100

Except that there is no free. You are paying insurance too. And the other cost is that you lose out on performance, and less weight as well as the range you say you dont care about.

One can get the new faster charging Permobil batteries if your chair is 2021 or newer, you can get generic or even MK each year

There ARE NO permobil "faster charging" batteries. They are just generic batteries probably chinese, with a permobil mmarkings on them Its all about marketing with permobil... You can charge ANY lead based batteries at 10A. And a COMPLETE charge still takes 16 hours regardless of what the cheap generic 10A permobil "branded" charger tells you. So theres that! Returning 45Ah which is all you get from an 85Ah lead battery till it stops, to a lithium battery takes 1 hour 15 mins using our little 40A hobby chargers.

I have always gotten batteries each year on a set date.
Right now I an others are getting 15-18 miles per charge which is more then enough because again I am married so thats a lot of walking for my wife

But while that may be true if you are a lightweight, you can half that for heavier people. Worse, its not distance thats the issue, its hills, ramps, turn in place. I can kill a set of lead bricks in 2 hours cleaning up my driveway. BEFORE I want to "go out" at all. But your needs may well be different!

The other issue is up till covid we flew each month so the set up from batteries to charger have to be simple, legal to fly and lightweight and compact to fit in a suitcase.

A 3KW capable ZXD power supply is the same size as most modern chargers. The PL8 that I use to charge is super lightweight and almost goes in a pocket. But you didnt consider that for a typical trip you may not even need to charge! 5X the range means your 18 miles will be 90 miles!!!

We have our 1st trip in a few weeks after 2 years of being grounded and I take a charger with me on long days just as a precaution so I can top off at lunch or dinner and add even more miles if I needed

And you need to drag a charger around for a precaution? How is that more convinient? However this is your choice. I pefer the fact that I know I wont need one. In several long days out.

The reason for the original post was Permobil tried to hide the issue of burnt joysticks from the 10 amp charger and instead of notifying potential impacted customers they waited till the customers complained

I reach out to the management of Permobil US and explained besides the joystick replacement and charger replacement they should also supply a new set of batteries

They said no because even the fact that the charger was shutting off to soon the batteries dont have memory and so it would not cause any issues later to users

*Note i still forced them to give me another set

These are like others 3rd party batteries from China and have a 85 ah rating and not sold on them

The burning connector cant damage your batteries. The burning thing only affect the start of the charge when current is high. After that everthing continues as normal. What can damage them is the one size fits all generic 10A charger.

But yes this was what the thread was about. The better solution would be to fit a simple anderson connector and buy a ZXD power supply/charger. Its about as big as the 10A one you have. But heavier. It can be set to PROPERLY charge the permobils battery, and if on your trips out and you want to add some power back, it will allow you to do that FIVE TIMES FASTER than the 10A charger and let you carry on. And no the battery is not damaged. Quite the contrary. Its charged correctly. You can set it to 10A, or any figure up to 50A if in a hurry. 12A is the max allowed on a joystick XLR.

[steves1977uk]

We have our 1st trip in a few weeks after 2 years of being grounded and I take a charger with me on long days just as a precaution so I can top off at lunch or dinner and add even more miles if I needed.

And with LiFePO4 you wouldn't need to top off! I don't think you understand the technical advancements Lithium offers Timm, plus you get a 10yr+ lifespan without having to change the batteries every year. You could fit 8x200Ah LiFePo4 cells instead of being limited to 45Ah (the best a pair of Lead bricks can offer before you stop dead!) and charge once a week. Miss a powerpoint to plug in your mobility charger? Not an issue with a Lithium setup.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Also, Rollin Positive this makes little sense to me.

Right now I an others are getting 15-18 miles per charge which is more then enough because again I am married so thats a lot of walking for my wife

Those of you that are single or no significant or no kids or grand kids or service dog users and others can and do roll 20, 30, 40 plus miles so I get the need and want to do lithium

Even if you can get 15 to 18 miles you never know which. Or when it will run short. So cant actually USE that 15. You use at best 10 to be sure you have some left and the fear of getting caught out literally.

I lived with my GF for around 12 years. I was not married. Whats the difference though. I would let her do her own thing, seeing freinds, visiting her family etc or shopping, hairdresser, the college etc. Meanwhile I would race off full speed with no ties on my own doing banking, bills, shopping, or hobby stuff, visiting freinds during the day. So I was at an airfield, or the beach reading a paper in the sun etc. Or gardening, which eats power. Then maybe we would both go out in the evening together for a meal or pub or whatever. Surely just because you are married that doesent stop you doing things withour her? You are not tied totally together 24/7 surely?

And the other thing is that while you may get 15 to 18 miles on tuesday (but must leave some in reserve in case) , you might get half that due to a hill or two, or a lot of ramps or grass at say an airshow or something on wednesday. So now you get just 9 miles. Range isnt even remotely fixed, it doesent work like that. Your 15 to 18 is a best case figure with no reserve which isnt realistic. And depending on what you are doing may be halved. And what if you forgot to plug in the charger overnight as happens to everyone occasionally? Your day out is ruined.

You say you dont need lithium. And maybe you dont. Most people say that. Till they try it. And then they change their mind! It really does give a better performing chair as well as completely removing the subconcious restrictions on what you actually allow yourself to do, the limits you automatically build in to your life. It takes some months before you realise that the limits are gone. Its hard to explain, but you never think about batteries any more. You dont keep lookin at that stupid battery gauge. You are just free to go about your life.

[steves1977uk]

I might be doing the Route 66 trip next year when I get my new passport. Maybe I'll stop by Timm's and show him how much better Lithium is.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Take him on a long drive up the nearest mountain! He will run out of steam. You can charge his dead chair from yours via the PL8 and continue... Twice. At 40A if he fits an anderson.

[steves1977uk]

Yep, true! Will have to fit 200Ah pack into my Dietz chair.

Steve

[fishinjunky]

honestly its worth going lifepo4 just for the performance improvements alone. It improved my chairs performance drastically. It now takes hills like a champ its faster more responsive in a good way the suspension feels better with the weight loss. And you get all that range if you ever need it. Or if you dont have access to charge for a few days its no problem.
i wont be letting any more dirty lead bricks inside my girl (the bounder)

[LROBBINS]

I'll add a bit to fishinjunky's take. Not only does an 8S LiFePO4 improve performance because it weighs less, without the voltage sag that one gets with a lead battery under load, driving becomes noticeably more responsive; in part because the voltage stays up and in part because motor compensation works more precisely when the voltage isn't wandering about and current flow actually reflects mechanical load. Except for the complexity of charging, LiFePO4 is really a win-win situation.

[Burgerman]

I would agree with that. Its not all that noticible with the typical delayed action time based steer setup which is common to all stock chairs. But once programmed correctly its VERY noticable. Everything becomes more predictable and accurate. Not harsh, just absolutely predictable. Esp under turning loads, on steep ramps, thresholds, curbs. It just responds correctly.