PINNED NHS supplied Dietz Rehab Style Chair. You want one!!!

[Burgerman]

Arrived.
I have not took a look yet. But will report on what they cocked up tomorrow.

Should be a laugh. I allowed them to supply a chair to MY specs. I Filled in the order and decided what chair.


Its supposed to be:
4 pole, 4mph (I refused to pay the extra 200 for 6mph and the extra 200 for lights that is a legal requirement if its 6mph as I only intend using this at home)
R-net 120A, (4mph doesent need it but I may swap motors in the future!)
colour joystick, CJSM1 (I refused to cough up another 100 for the CJSM2 since I have a box of them already!)
swing away joystick mount,
double arm uprights for strength, (I use these to lift from and I hate wobbly arms. This partly cures that)
GRP24 76Ah batts, (They offer 60Ah, 76Ah and 100Ah and the NHS wouldnt pay for 100Ah And I wont as I would fit 230Ah lithium instead.)
power lift,
power tilt,
power recline,
power centre foortest, (ESSENTIAL in order to move seat back later or it will drive like an oil tanker)
wide gel comfy arm tops, (once tried the reast are all CRAP!)
black.
With 8A charger (they shipped with a 12A one that wasnt on the order form. So dont know if thats normal)
small headrest,
shallow controur but tall back.

Lets see... What they actually did.
If its all present and correct, and if they mounted the seat rearwards and the joystick higher all as I explained to the rep then I will be surprised.
So will it be a 10 out of 10?
Or a 3?

Lets see if they can get this right. I explained literally in a printed black and white page exactly what was needed as a self prescription. Before the dietz rep turned up. And handed them copies.
I think they really have tried, and listened. To a degree. I think that they do not understand most of it though. I will find out when I go into my kitchen tomorrow!

In anticipation...

[Burgerman]

Currently on my bed with a nice bladder infection so cant check it out. I just love it. On the plus side I went to the optician (optomerist? in the US?) for the first time in around 10 years yesterday. And had an argument with the expert. He kept asking me to tell him when I line of text went blurred as he moved it closer and further. As in NOT SHARP. But he meant when it was illegible. I can see what a thing is no longer sharp long before I cant read it! Those are different things.

Anywy soon I will be able to see properly again. While at it I am having a 30mm diameter zero dioptre and only astigmatism corrected thin lens made to allow me to fit this into a rubber eye cup for my nikon camera... So I can use it wihout glasses.

So theres that!

But then after I got home I noticed funny coloured urine and sweating and feeling cold... So now drinking gallons of water while in bed.

[Burgerman]

I might add that 6mph motors would have been an upcharge of £220 which I didnt bother doing. And the same again for lights pretty much. Again I only intend using this chair for around the house etc so I didnt spend the extra here as I already have 5 chairs! I wanted to see how bad this actually feels? I dont think it matters at home.

The NHS will allow the 6 or 8mph upgrade, but will only supply 4mph and no lights at their cost.
They will also cover any rehab options you demonstrate a need for. In my case that was a power centre footrest, to allow the seat to go back so it steers properly. And lift, tilt, recline etc too. The total price was about 12.5K on the prescription form with my prefered wider softer arms, double arm uprights for strength, and a few other custom alterations inc a colour (but not CJSM2) joystick. They had no issues with the 120A power module or 4 pole motors. And no problem with the 80Ah battery. Another upgrade from the 60Ah ones they prefer for cost reasons... They only do 4 pole anyway on the diets sango advanced chairs. Because it is only for around the house I chose solid flat free tyres, as at 4mph thats adequate. Especially indoors!

[fishinjunky]

Great! I'm really interested in how this chair does. How long did it take to get from your first contact with NHS ?

I'm hoping they eventually come to the U.S. I'm going to contact them to see if they have any plans to in the future.

I'm going to be looking for a different rear wheel drive chair next year. I'm done with chain drive chairs. A chain came off my chair yesterday miles from my house deep in some corn field leaving stranded in 99f heat . I'm going to start a different thread for the details of what happened.

I have a UTI right now to. Pounding the water only thing that really works for me. I've taken to many antibiotics in the past an most are not as effective now.

[Burgerman]

Great! I'm really interested in how this chair does. How long did it take to get from your first contact with NHS ?

Thats debatable.
But way too long!
If you count december as first contact, then 8 months!
If you count the PREVIOUS YEAR where I gave them 12 months advance warning that my budget was ending, then 18 months...
But I allowed it to ake this long just to see. With little "pushing" that I normally would have done.
Likewise I allowed them to supply an NHS specced and supplied chair too. No custom stuff. So that I can see what others will get.

[Superchunk]

Great! I'm really interested in how this chair does. How long did it take to get from your first contact with NHS ?

Thats debatable.
But way too long!
If you count december as first contact, then 8 months!
If you count the PREVIOUS YEAR where I gave them 12 months advance warning that my budget was ending, then 18 months...
But I allowed it to ake this long just to see. With little "pushing" that I normally would have done.
Likewise I allowed them to supply an NHS specced and supplied chair too. No custom stuff. So that I can see what others will get.

I have always wondered what takes so long? Like surely, they're not just that lazy.

[Burgerman]

Well yes pretty much.

Its the exact same reason that I have not seen my doctor in a decade. And cant get an apointment n matter what I do. Yet I can call my VET and he answers the phone in person at 10 at night and he is HERE 30 minutes later.

The difference is simple. The NHS is a socialist structure. They get copious amounts of cash (180 billion) sprinkled in at the top. And then they do anything in their pwer to share that between themselves and to make sure that theres 3 people doing every job and endless meetings, coffee, panels, layers of management and as many of those as humanly possible. YOU are the nusance that bothers them.

Whereas my vet is like all self employed and private business desperate to please me. He want the cash that I am running around with to pay his bills, his premises, his staff, his taxman, his property taxes, and his accountant. And his gas, electric, and phone bills. So he is keen to attend so you dont go to a different vet and he loses the business.

How long does it really take to "assess" someone for a chair?
Well it SHOULD take about 1 hour. Can be done same day you call. Either at your home or at the WCS offices.
Then it takes me around 15 mins to carefully select all the approriate options on the prescription form, and then add up the price. I would then email this to Dietz, and they are private! They want a sale and will get back to you fast with any discounts and a delivery date. So then I would take bank details, pay online, and order all done and dusted in 1 day. With ease.

Then if its a custom chair like my Salsa for e.g where things not on the form, such as black paint, 120A power module, etc to be added, or in the case of the Dietz DOUBLE arm uprights for strength, then it can take 4 weeks to my door.

So total time IF THEY WERE INTERESTED could be 1 day order, and 4 weeks delivery.

I did this with the Salsa, the original F55s, and the Invacare storm 4 xplore. All took under 4 weeks, usually 3.

And if it takes them longer then its because they are plain lazy. Thats the reason no socialist country ever survives long without going bankrupt. Or if they do then they are generally super poor. Or starve millions. It breeds a totallack of interest and ends in almost no production.

[Burgerman]

Since I am on my bed and the chair in the kitchen, I got a carer to use a "smart phone" because aparently it takes good pictures of it. I wish I hadnt bothered. I am no wiser.

Noisy, fuzzy, too close distorted images show me precisely nothing useful!

Other than its got the usual 300 x 8 skinny bycile tyres. And a terrible backrest! But we will see whan I take some REAL pictures with a proper camera tomorrow.

[Burgerman]

From what I can tell from those abysmal pictures they have done the double arms, and they have got the seat back at least a bit, but it needs another 3 or 4 inches... And they have the arms too low, the joystick 3 inches too low, and other than this I have no clue! Skinny tyres I hate them! Why does everyone use them?

But they have tried at least! They can read.

So next is the fun part. I will look, measure, make a list of whats wrong and ring them up. They wont fund me to do my own thing so they can do it!

[Burgerman]

OK heres its charger.
I ordered their 8A one inc in price. They sell a 10A one and thats on the order form at a crazy price!

Initial look:
On the plus side they woke up!
Its TWELVE Amps... They ship 12A chargers in place of the 8A ones now.
Finally they are getting it.

However as per usual its supposed to be AGM and gel... Well it can be one. Or the other. And it is not possible for it to do both properly...
So they figured out that 5 and 8 amp chargers are a joke on a heavy chair with 80Ah approx batteries.
But they still dont understand that AGM and Gel are DIFFERENT!!! And worse to come.

Then I connected it...
I connected it to a fully charged chair.
And I used my monitor to watch what it did.
Well it charged for a few secs at 12A. Good. Rapidy delined down to around 1A.
And it continued at this rate right up until it is now reading 31.19V. Seriously!
So I checked the inline blue meter I got from eBay with the rather costly Fluke 289 recently fluke test calibrated tool. It was actually a real 31.11V. So the blue thing reads a fraction high. By about 0.1V. So close enough here!

Its now been this way for 35 mins and shows no sign of changing yet!
(edit now 1 hour)

What is it doing?
No clue! But 31, something on gel is way too much. its less harmful on AGM but its supposed to work on both.
Will watch it on a full charge later, tonight. But I suspect that its not good! Certainly not good for gel...
Its just climbed a fraction to 31.21V. Really???
Maybe its doing that fast charge or "fast finishing" thing. I dont like that at least on gel batteries. But a full charge will let me check that out tonight.

OK, does anyone know what batteries are in this new Dietz chair?

Or do I have to tale them out... I might just call them up.

[Burgerman]

My meter just has an XLR male on one end and an XLR female on the other. So it can go in between any charger and chair. So as to see what it really does.
Ebay, cheap. very useful.


Right...
After 1 hour it has dropped to its 27.16V float. (fluke measurent), That OK. Its 13.56V per batery. Thats too high for indefinite float. But OK to complete a charge or up to 24 to 48 hours.

Just not sure what its ACTUAL cv voltage is until I test on a discharged chair. But I suspect its doing a "recondition" or a fast finishing stage. Which isnt ideal for AGM and bad for GEL.
So lets see.

Tomorrow!

Decided I am staying on bed today for a bunch of reasons.

[steves1977uk]

That iGo charger isn't the best as mine died if it's left connected to the chair and then switch off at the mains. So always make sure to unplug it from the chair after it has charged.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Contrary to what the chair instruction says you should ALWAYS connect the chair last. And disconnect it first while the charger is still powered. Applies to all types of charger inc hobby ones.

Even the PL8 in theory although that does have better than average electrical protection against this stuff.

Was it 12A one? They do 4, 6, 8A as well. If so it likely has the same funny voltage thing going on to. After 1 hour it changed from being at 31V to float and a green light. Its still charging at a tiny 6mA.

I suspect it stops charging at a high end current like 1/2 to 1A. Then just charges at about .5A fot an hour regardless, unless it exceeds 15.6V per battery. Thats "ok" with AGM but not great. And a bad plan on gels... They are doing this, and on AGM and gels, because its "faster"... And because they are not buying the batteries.

I also tested this several times. And it seems to do this every 3rd time.

[steves1977uk]

I believe it is the 12A one I have as well. But now I have a ZXD2400 set up in 3-stage charge mode that I use on my Dietz chair which does a more complete charge.

I rarely use it though because the seating still needs to be sorted properly, plus still saving up to do a Lithium conversion as well. BTW, what's the best website to order 230Ah LiFePO4 cells from BM? I keep checking FogStar but they never seem to have any to order.

Steve

[Burgerman]

what's the best website to order 230Ah LiFePO4 cells from BM?

Not sure.

[fishinjunky]

At first glance I really like the look it. Has a "high-end" look. no plasticky cheap flimsy panels to vibrate while driving. I like the head rest mount it looks sturdy. Can't wait to see it after you give it your touch.

[Burgerman]

Well pics soon.
But its not going to mlook a lot different. Its an NHS chair for use around the home. Not really mine.
I decided not to pay for the better 6mph motors, lights etc. And it will stay lead. And will keep the cheap joystick etc. And stock wheels and skinny tyres. Its just for all the dirty jobs around the house/garden.

As it is its not bad. But theres a few things that I dont much like.
Later!

[Burgerman]

For now!

[Burgerman]

What can I tll you!

1. when seat elevator is up, it wobbles around just like all the other similar seat elevators used by other manufacturers.

2. when the headrest mount is positiond and allen bolt tigtened its rock solid. And unlike most it doesent stick out the back ready to knock mirrors off the walls etc. Whoohoo.

3. The rep LISTENED. Doubled up the arms. And even so, they wobble about just like the sunrise Q500 Q700 etc ones do. Thats not good enough. But its better than some, and most people dont much care!

4. The rep listened when I said seat mount rearwards! Even so, I just moved it back 30mm more. By undong the seat pan, and 4 loctited allen bolts. These are a barsteward to undo unless you hit them with a gas torch (which was a plubers mapp gas one in my case) and then they come out easy! I will be gaining a little more when I move the lift unit rearwards to the next bolt hole I think but not loked at this yet. Its already better than the sunrise chair in this regard.

5. Theres not much ground clearance!

6. I cant get over how skinny stock rims and tyres look... These are the usual 3.00 x 8 rears, and standard 9 inch fronts. I might just have no choice here unless I want to start spending money on a "free" tax payer funded chair!

7. The motors are 4 pole. BUT the programmer tells me 110mOhm. Thats crap! They will be gutless wonders. If you get this chair do what I decided NOT TO DO and fork out the extra couple of hundred for the 6mph ones. They cannot be 110mOhms. Or it wouldnt move! Why is that bad? Because while a 4mph motor doesent need as much torque and so "gets away" with higher impedance motors it also wastes battery power they are also much much less efficient. If you want to know why a lower current high impedance motor uses MORE battery power just askss. This isnt the place! Anyway I dont much care as I only want this for indoor and houshold use.

8. The arm tops are soft and comfortable like the salsa ones. BOTH the Diets chairs and the Sunrise Salsa chairs offer these as an UPGRADE that you should get!!!

9. The Dietz swing away. Its just like all the rest. Sloppy and loose. I will "fix" that one way or another. Maybe inject some glue or something. Just like the sunrise version...

10. The joystick is the cheaper colour plastic one. It was "free" and I already have 3 spare CJSM2 ones in a box here so I didnt upgrade it. Well I did slightly. They wanted to ship it with an LED one! How am I suppossed to know what function or what mode I am in. Guesswork, flashing lights? So I insisted i=on a colour one. These are smaller screens and impossible to see outdoors in sunshine. So if it bothers you pay up and get the CJSM2. Its more mappable too.

11. Its suspension seems as crap as all the rest are. And it has some of that swinging axle thing going on at the rear. I havent fathomed that out yet but it doesent feel like you are sailing a boat like the sunrise one.

12. Programming. What can I say. Same old. Fixed in 10 mins flat.

13. MOST of the cables etc are well routed. One wasnt. Easy fixed.

14. It has the lighting and indicators on the joystick. It has the buttons, and the lighting/seating module already. So if you wanted to fit lights its trivial plug and play. I wont bother! Dont need tham at home.

15. I ordered this with the 120A power module. Which is probably never used as the motors are 110 mOhm. I doubt it will ever make use of 120A. Unless I decide to fit the 6 or 8mph motors I have in a box on my shelf...

16. Li=ooks like it should be pretty durable.

So what do I think? It is exactly as I expected.
Except that the 4 pole 4mph motors that is all the WCS will pay for are pretty crap! And the skinny wheels and tyres look comedic.
And probably the best current rear drive chair available in the UK at least. Wide casters, all the options you need, inc 6 and 8mph motors, lights, powered everything. 8/10 from me! I will run it into the ground.

[Burgerman]

Pics... Before adding dump. Before moving seat back a little more.

[Burgerman]

So the Wheelchair Services CAN supply a decent chair. All you need to do to make it perfect is pay out of pocked for lights and the motor upgrade. Thats about 400 as it inc lights.

They will pay for 4 pole, 120A power module, lighting and seating actuator and lift, tilt, recline, power centre footrest, double arms, a fancy cushion and a fancy back if you want one, as well as warrany it, a 12A charger, and the bigger batteries. All for free.

So its just down to you to SELF ASSESS in writing, in detail, and insist that you get what you need.

Personally I just wanted it for free for indoor and around the house for all the dirty jobs. So upgrading motors, lights, or even a CJSM2 joystick would just be a waste of money. As it stands the WCS pay to maintain and replace this chair as my home/backup.

I already have my own chairs here for going out in summer etc. So what do you think? Apart from how unbelievably slow they are?

[fishinjunky]

i like it. It has far fewer negatives than most stock chairs. It looks made for an adult not like most chairs that look designed for a teenager. I know you dont like the skinny tires but it does have good looking rims. I saw somewhere they offer wide air filled knobby offroad tires. If it becomes available in the U.S I would get one.

video showing the offroad tires
https://youtu.be/w7RRV-1elfM?si=IqeTeOanAA6IWGie

[shirley_hkg]

Last week I helped to move her seat backward.

Sango Advance has ONLY 2 positions she could choose, but are 3 inches apart . It was very very nose heavy, or a bit tippy now. It is really unwise to add pins that limit users' choice.

Holes are threaded.

May not be trivial , if you want other position.

[Burgerman]

Lift off the seat cushion and the seat plate.
Then look for 4 allen bolts that hold tthe seat itself to the lift mechanism.
These are too tight to undo. Because they are loctited to stop us from undoing them...
Heat with a butane flame until hot. Not too hot! Dont burn paint etc.

Now these can be removed easily which allows the seat to go back around 30mm. As theres alreay 2 sets of holes in the sheet metal. I moved it here. Theres room to drill additional holes if needed. And theres a extra set of unused holes too near the centre. So you could skip the front 2.

So you can move the seat back 30mm. And 75mm or both. You can also move the seat depth by moving the back, and relocating the seat plate to keep the same depth. Soi their is 3 differentr ways to change the seat position. You could for e.g move the thing 70mm (3 inch) on the base mounting. And then move the seat back forwards 1 inch or 2 inches. Then change seat board position mountings. Or do 1 inch seat mount (30mm) and the same 1 inch on the seat depth and base board. So then total would be only 2 inch rearwards.

Many ways to skin a cat!!

Black arrows! Extra holes...

[Burgerman]

Do you have a parts or drawing PDF file?

[shirley_hkg]

PM me please.

[Burgerman]

Done.
I ended up with the 4 bolts shown removed and the seat moved back about 30mm. And the seat back also moved back by 30mm too. So that made the seat base 30mm longer. But then the base board can have its mounting clips moved to allow that board to fit 30mm further back as well...
So total is me sitting around 60mm further back. Seat base is now same depth as before. And the lift unit wasnt moved.

I am also going to add some spacers or washers and longer bolts on the front 2 of the ones in the arrows in my photo screenshot to give some seat "dump" under the seat itself. I want about 5 degrees. Rather than changing the lift mounting base angle. This gives better anti rear tip stability when elevated than doing it the other way.

[Burgerman]

Seat position.
1. ANGLE or SEAT DUMP base starting angle.
2. SEAT CG position.
3. FOOTREST LENGTH
4. ARMS
5. HEADREST

1. I added: UNDER SEAT PAN between lift/tilt module and the seat an 8mm spacer, at the rear. And a 45mm spacer at the front. And used longer M8 bolts that were 8 and 45mm LONGER than the stock 12mm ones to bolt the seat onto the lift. This takes the minus 1 degree seat angle (its angles forwards slightly!) and makes it plus 4 or 5 degrees when the TILT is set to down or the lowest position.

Now while you CAN do this with the TILT actuator and the joystick, the seat is not then fully down as you drive. And so bounces around like its mounted on a loose rubber thing... This is the actuator and its mechanism flexing. It feels insecure and will cause damage to the mechanism and actuator failure sooner or later as many have found. Especially if you run on what remains of our roads and pavements in the UK. That shock loading will break the seat tilt mechanism. And it feels like the seat is falling off... Another advantage it that your tilt now moves about 5.5 degrees further back that before! That sounds trivial. Its really not!

NOTE: Theres a set of holes on the seat mount/chair base that also allow the whole tilt/lift module to be tilted back to achieve a greater dump angle. You can do that, but its position adds too much dump! And worse, it means that because the tilt/lift modue is leaning rearwards, YOUR MASS is moved rearwards too as you use the lift. And to when up high the chair then gets way too tippy! You dont want to fall out the rear while using the seat lift do you?
Doing it with seat spacers means that your CG position actually lifts you slightly forwards as you lift instead. Much safer!


2. The other thing that 1 above does is increase the gap between the CENTRE MOUNT footplate and your front casters. And so now you can move the seat back further. The seat forwards and backwards CG position is adjusted in 2 places.
a) There are 3 options (3 sets of holes) under the same bolts where I added the spacers already drilled in the seat mount under your seat cushion above. So now you get to move these... AND:

b) the whole seating lift and tilt module has TWO possible positions on the base. On a rear drive chair this is set to the forward position. I am about to move this to the REAR position, thats around a 2.5 to 3 inch change. If this isnt enough or is too much then re-adjust an inch or so forwards and back using the TOP mounting holes under the seat pan until it is whare you want it.
This stuff is all pretty easy. but time consuming to get correct. And will result in a CG and seat angle right where you wanted it to be.

3. Footrest height Adjustment. On the CENTRE MOUNT footplate you need to be using, in order to get the seat back to the correct place, then you need to adjust its length to suite your legs when its in the low position. This is done with a single allen bolt, that tensions the strap that lifts the footrest up as it is lowered. That is super easy once you figure that out. I was puzzled for 2 mins as to how this worked. As usual taking it all apart soon discovered how!

4. I orderd the soft wider padded arms. You should too. These things should be stock! All the others are terrible. These are comfortable all day. The ARM width adjustment is under the seat base and self explanitory. Adjust to fit your cushion/ass etc so that the width is correct.
I orderd 2 arm uprights. Because the LIFT OFF arms are much more rigid and better than the wobbly weak lift up back mounted arm options which is stock. I hate those things. Not solid enough even to drive properly with the joystick wobbling around all over. Once programmed properly. And too weak to lift from.
Sdjust height (slaken the two obvious allen bolts (one to each upright) and lift up to where you want them. I like these quite high. As stock they are super low...
Move the point where the arms mount to the arm tops in the sliding rails as far rearwards as possible to allow the joystick swingaway to also be moved closer to the rear, so you are not stretching to reach it. Move the arm position backwards in the seat base sliding mounts too to shorten the reach or move the arm back. These are all just allen screw loosen, slide, tighten things. Simple to do. But again to get everything exactly where you want it takes time and a little lateral thinking. Took me over an hour to do a 3 minute job. As I had better ideas when testing. Rinse and repeat.

5. Headrest. I ordered the shallow contour tall back. Because I like it. And the smallest padded headrest. Positioning this is super simple. Undo the allen bolts about 14 of a turn and it all goes super limp! HOLD IT WHERE YOU WANT IT and TIGHTEN THE BOLT. Done! Adjust it about 10 times as I did to get it where you want it. Be warned, too high hits the van doorway. So mines a touch lower than really needed but when tilted it works great.

And thats ALL the seating configuration that is needed on the DIETZ SANGO ADVANCED chair.

[Burgerman]

Discovered something useful.
Tha c-Go 12A charger that came with my chair (and others too) can be adjusted for charging parameters and you can log in VIA PC, and graph what it does.
DEPENDING on how YOUR c-Go charger, was configured at the factory or by Dietz It MIGHT be good with AGM, or Gel, and it all depends...
I am ordering a cable and software to see what it can do.

You just need a cable/software that you can buy from them. If you look under the cable exit on the charger theres an invisible sticker. Remve it, and a connector is revealed for PC connection via USB..
So those looking for a DECENT gel or AGM charger should be able to buy a 6, 8, or 10, or 12A one, then adjust the parameters for a proper gel charge algo or AGM or they also make one that also does lithium too. I would buy the 12A one and use it set to 12A. But it should be possible to set this to any figure. Up to 12. Same with settings. It can be set to AGM or Gel, and probably others. Maybe even custom? Dont know yet.

So I am currently looking into this.

I can also tell you that they do ON A DISCHARGED or daily used battery a reasonable job.
Albeit they are at the wrong voltage... 28.6 CV clmbing to 28.8V Which is adjustable. But for AGM that would work fine. But theysent this with a gel battery...
And that this, and the current is also adjustable in software....
They also dont quite get it right if you connect to an already charged battery. It pushes them to 31.2V approx at around 1A gradually falling to about .33A and after 1 hour goes to float. But 1 hour at a very small current shouldnt do a lot of damage. I would rather it didnnt do that however. Float is 27.27V. So OK at 13.632V per battery for 1 to a max 2 days. Its too high for more than a few days really. Maybe a week max if the battery has been stored a long while to help it balance up and recover.

[Burgerman]

And you may note that on their website the software and cable is shown. And as usual for anything to do with the damned mobility industry theres NO BUY NOW button. And you have to email, jump through hoops etc.

What is with these idiots.