PINNED - R-Net for dummies

[Burgerman]

So that those that are scared of all the wiring and complexity on a powerchair understand how simple it really is!

Provided you have a basic chair built, with some batteries and motors with zero modules, zero cables etc. Just the chair!

Below is EVERYTHING else you need on a powerchair to make it drive!

Yes its that smple.
You need a battery cable. To join the battery to the power module.
You need to plug your motors into the power module.
You need to program it...

Battery goes into the centre connector.
Motors M1 and M2 plug into the outer two connectors. All really that simple!

Below is everything else.
1. JOYSTICK - any R-net one.
2. POWER MODULE - any R-net one.
3. BUS CABLE - to join these two things together!!!

[Burgerman]

So now it drives (once correcty programmed).
Woohoo! Doeset get any easier right?
If your chair ever wont work, just go back to this 2 component parts above and test carefully.

******************

But this doesent add any lights or any seating options.
You may want these too! Or on a basic chair you may not.

To add these things you need to fit the very things you need to operate first, say a tilt actuator. Or a lift module. Or lights.

And now you need another item. The SEATING and LIGHTING module. This is usually a ISM6-L on most rehab type chairs which allows you to connect up to 6 seating actuators, and lights and indicators.

This needs another bus cable to connect it and that also gives it power!

So we now add this extra module. In my picture below I already added a actuator loom to it, so that its just plug and play to suit my sunrise chairs seating actuators.
Dont let that worry you. Its easy to DIY it.
EACH channel, is marked as channel 1, or channel 2 etc. Up to 6.
Each channel has just 2 spade terminals.
So you would connect your seating actuators (tilt?) 2 wires (from its motor) to say channel one. Then configure channel one to work your tilt actuator and test it!
Once thats working, you can move to channel 2 and say your lift actuators 2 wires.

Its really that simple.

So this picture shows the joystick, and power module that we already understand. And on the left it now shows a SEATING/LIGHTING ISM6-L module. This simply connects via another bus cable. And is self powered.
Also now shown is a programming dongle. On the right. This connects only when you want to program the system. It has a USB cable to your PC, and it fits in the bus cable somewhere. Usually between joystick and the long bus cable while you program the chair. When done, simply unplug it.

[rossi17]

Hi,

Where could I buy a PGDT OBP dongle from for my r-net controller?

Also can you program to change tilt or recline height with a dongle?

Thanks Paul

[Burgerman]

OBP is built in and you need an OEM programmer to enable it. Not recomended on a permobil as it does the wrong thing... and its a bit limited in what it can do anyway.

A Dongle is needed for full OEM level programming, and that allows you to change everything on a PC. The thing on the right in the picture above.

Tilt or recline height?
Not sure what you mean. And it depends on the chair and system. So yes and no...

Where to buy? I bought an OEM one years ago from PGDT directly, another one from the powersoccershop in the US, and 2 dealer level ones from the chair manufacturers for other people from sunrise. Also ebay and on here occasionally.

[Raro]

What chair do you need it for rossi17?

[rossi17]

Thanks for the reply.

I think it’s a bit out my depth.

With the recline/tilt I’m on about the seat tilting back on a sunrise quickie powerchair as I’ve got 2 of these and one seat tilts back more than the other one. And it’s got exactly the same parts set up on both chairs.

Thanks

[Burgerman]

Exactly the same?
There are 45 and 60 and 180 tilt/recline options.

With the recline/tilt I’m on about the seat tilting back on a sunrise quickie powerchair as I’ve got 2 of these and one seat tilts back more than the other one. And it’s got exactly the same parts set up on both chairs.

If you saw how many alternate tick box options existed on an order form you may be shocked!

Well then either it isnt exactly the same, or its linkage or other details are configured differently. OR theres a different seating system inc seating module fitted to your chairs than normal typical rehab chairs.

Seating can be the normal types used on most chairs where the control system, sends power to the actuator and thats determined only by the user. How long the actuator is, how its configured, and how long you push the stick/button.

OR it uses a more complex type of seating module with memory, and positional feedback sensors, etc. In this case it can be programmed ifferently to stop in different positions etc.

Normal seating would typically use a ISM6-L (6 CHANNELS + LIGHTING) proportional module.
Advanced or more complex seating typically uses a CXSM 8 module, a seperate lighting module, and each actuator has a position sensor and many more wires. These are programmed by the chair manufacturer and adjusted inside the oem programmer. And seem problematic and go wrong a lot!

So if you dont tell exactly which chair I cant answer your question.

[rossi17]

Hi,

Sorry it’s a sunrise quickie salsa R rear wheel drive 2012

Thanks
Paul

[Burgerman]

So same as my one?
Your probably looks and is very different!
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 00#p122818

The salsa order form has countless options. So that doesent tell us which recline or tilt it has. Or much else!
There were two options for 30 and 45 degrees tilt I think.
4 different choices for initial dump seat angle. Mines 6.
3 different seat tilt methods, of which one uses the tilt/lift module if fitted, one uses a seperate actuator, one uses the base.
Recline has many different backs, including the user tension adjustable one I have, ergonomically correct one that moves up/down as it tilts and can be 30 or 45 degree recline.

Theres more options too, non of which are max angle adjustable in programming. So some option, tick box part, or manual adjustment is different.

So you will need to take a close look at both your 2 and see what is different.

[biscuit]

For dummies this may be possible, even me at some point when I have energy. Would a 90A power module be enough to go on a chair that has no lifting, tilting etc and a 65kg driver? I will start to get the parts for a system that I could use on my chairs. As I am making every effort to keep what I can of my body as functional as possible, I'm not in a hurry.

My guess is an OEM programmer would be the most overall use, I'm always tweaking the programmes for my various chairs and they are just VSI joysticks.

Mind you, that reasoning is how I came to have a PL8 but not a LiFePO4 battery.

[rossi17]

Hi,

Thanks for the info.

Would you have a link for the spec info on the quickie salsa R?

Thanks

[Burgerman]

Well thats not so easy.
I ticked all the correct boxes, of which there are maybe 50? And some "build for me" options not on the prescription form, and some custom stuff that I did later on.

but including:

Custom colour black.
Custom option CJSM2 joystick.
120A R-net power module.
Power lift
Power lift set to +6 degrees base dump angle
Power recline 30 degrees
Power tilt 30 degrees (36 when it starts at 6%
Power lift 300mm
Power centre mount footplate, adjustable for length and angle
Lights
6mph 4 pole motors (not 2!)
grp 24 80Ah batts.
10A charger
Wide gel padded Jay arms, long.
Swing away customised and remounted in the correct place!
Canvas back (more compact, less sweat, adjustable), and push handles cut off/short etc.
Headrest custom mount so it is neat and doesent gouge walls.
10 inch caster tyres with slightly longer forks. (why?)
Custom rear 3.5J rims and 120/70 - 8 tyres that are tubeless.
Hard rear shocks (I am heavy)
Single post removable arms as the stock lift up things are flimsy and flexi.
Lights moved inboard.
Leg pads replaced with thinner carbon sheet.

Plus a lot of other long forgotten options!

Including relocating seat rearwards by a few inches so heels sit between front wheels to give a shorter more nimble chair with more rearward CG.
And drastically reprogrammed so it goes exactly where I tell it.

A prescription form allows you to build a bog basic low power chair with the least seating options cheap. Or the exact opposite. The difference can be 4x the price. A Salsa isnt a salsa! You need to know what to order and why.

About to get 245Ah of lithium battery when the damned cells arrive so it literally has 6x as much range as the stock 80Ah batteries give it... @ around 80 to 100 miles or 150km.

[thecleancompany]

Is there anyway to program out all the tilt and lift and elevator functions?
I was given an a Permobil C 300 chair to convert into a beach powerchair and a Dongle to do the programming.
The Dongle allows me to get into the programming and switch each function to "none" which I assumed would allow me to
unplug the tilt lift elevator hardware and all would be well. Unfortuneatly if you unplug something it faults and wont run/move
Are there any work arounds to just control Mot 1 and Mot 2 ?
By the way I have been studing the Roboteq manual. Im on page 68 of 488 and its really the way to go. And the
information you have posted with BM3 chair and how to do stuff is really impressive. With you permission Im gonna copy you.

Best Regards,
Tony

[Burgerman]

Yes. Obviously you can use r-net just to drive motors.

At least you can on any normal chair. Permobil make it a bit harder.
Unplug the permobil brand seating stuff.

All you want is this. (any joystick works) And 2 motors. And a battery...

[thecleancompany]

Tried that with multiple controllers and joysticks. Keep getting the joystick fault icon on the screen and that damn red turtle flashing. Also get the blue circle flashing at me.
I have 6 joysticks and 10 modules and none of them will spark the motors unless all connected properly to the designated chairs. Called the "experts" at various repair stations
and they have no answers and really dont want to talk to me. One wanted to charge me $1000.00 US dollars for a reprogramming call.
Going to spend time reading Roboteq online and and in a few weeks I will know lots about it and then will buy a new 2 channel brushed motor controller.
Sorry to rant on but Im just so frustrated. I have built four beach powechairs using crappy 90 amp controllers and people love them. Since I used recycled parts
I just gave them away since I can weld bend and fab in my garage. Alum tube cost was just about $250.00 US Dollars.
Suggestions welcomed.

Many Thanks,
Tony

[Burgerman]

Well I cant say what it is you are doing with the programming but I have 3 full sets of R-Net 120 power modules and various joysticks and once correctly programmed they all worked just the test motors on my bench fine.

Then I reprogrammed them all to work with my normal chairs complete with Rnet (note no permobil stuff here) seating modules etc.

So unless its a permobil firmware thing then you should be able to disable all the inhibits and other permobil stuff and plug and play.

Let me put it this way.
I am 99% certain I should be able to do the same with yours. In a matter of minutes.

[Burgerman]

This may not work. Because permobil firmware. Or maybe I missed a few things. Need YOUR chair here to sort it out really!
But out of interest load this.
Try setting PERSONALITY to sunrise or generic too.

Many settings such as motor compensation etc and even motor direction may be wrong too.
Be sure to set BRAKE VOLTAGE to same as your chair!!!
Be sure to set MOTOR COMPENSATION to same as your chair.
Unplug EVERYTHING other than battery motors and joystick.

But tell me what it does.

[thecleancompany]

Thank you for the suggestions and the rnet file. The RNet file wont connect to the controller and my dongle cant get to the more important items in the file so I am a bit stuck at the moment but will keep moving forward as this is important get these chairs done.
I reconnected everything and still got the damn red turtle and the shifted joystick indicating a joystick error.
At this point I know I have messed with programming via the dongle to put "none" in the place holder for the actuators.
The chair did power up correctly and drive for three feet after using your suggestions but now is defaults back to the problem .
A tech told me last week that Permobil does some weird things with programming. Not sure if its true.
ITs 330 pm california time so its back to reading Roboteq online manual.
Thank you so much for helping
Tony

[Burgerman]

The RNet file wont connect to the controller

What does this actually mean?

and my dongle cant get to the more important items in the file

You USE the dongle to download the settings file to your desktop.
Presumably its a (useless) dealer dongle, and dealer software.
But if you know how you can use OEM software to edit the file regaedless. PM me...

so I am a bit stuck at the moment but will keep moving forward as this is important get these chairs done.
I reconnected everything and still got the damn red turtle and the shifted joystick indicating a joystick error.
At this point I know I have messed with programming via the dongle to put "none" in the place holder for the actuators.

Its a permobil.
Non of the seating settings in the programmer have anything to do with R-NET seating modules... Permobil have their own seating system and different software...
So adding non will make no difference.

The chair did power up correctly and drive for three feet after using your suggestions but now is defaults back to the problem .
A tech told me last week that Permobil does some weird things with programming. Not sure if its true.

Oh thats true! I avoid like the plague.

But as long as you UNPLUG everything and program correctly it should stil work. Not sure what you are doing there!

[thecleancompany]

My skill set is lacking and I need to study this more to ask intelligent questions.
My dongle won't help me with much and wont link with the software so I will try to bribe a tech to help me off hours to get this done.
Cash talks!!! lol
Thanks for taking time to help.

[Burgerman]

Did you install the driver?

My experience with "techs" is that ther a handful on the planet have any real idea. The rest? Clueless, mostly not even interested. To learn what all the 1000+ options and possibilities and combinations are/do in the R-Net software is likely impossible. I spent years playing, on the bench many systems, and I think I am likely about as good with r-net as anyone can be. But I mean years. Most dont have the time or patience.
But permobil isnt pure r-net. Its a combination of permobil stuff made under licence with different firmware etc and their own gyros, seating modules and even joysticks that are a mix of compatible and otherwise. And the seating stuff, and their stability system, gyro is how shal we put it... Hard to deal with.

Most chairs dont do that. They use R-net parts. So the programmer can configure everything. But even then some manufacturers have some slightly different options.

[thecleancompany]

The software installed but is locked and wont allow interfacing between the Rnet program and my laptop where the program is loaded.
So if the techs here can fix my Permobil Rnet's great and if not Im not out anything. I will get four sets of brushed 4 pole motors and lots
of parts I can reuse.
I should have learned how to use the roboteq utilities years ago. I love Roboteq controllers and am buying a new dual channel brushed controller this week to replace my old AX2550 which no longer is supported.
You really are ahead of everyone else in function and design. Keep up the great work lots of people need you.
Going to start a new chair this weekend. Im lucky I can weld and bend and make frames from 6061 Alum round tube.
i will keep you posted with pictures in a month or so when I get it on the bench.
Thanks again for the help.

[Burgerman]

The software installed but is locked

R-NET software? Dealer? Locked how? It has no serial or password.

and wont allow interfacing between the Rnet program and my laptop where the program is loaded.

Do you mean it cant see the chair? If not what is "interfacing?"
Thats a driver issue. Did you load the driver?

You CANNOT edit the files in an OEM way without OEM software is that what you are talking about here?
The file I sent previously was just to see if it moved the motors and no errors.

And it IS an OEM level file and the dealer softare can load that to the chair.
But it isnt safe to drive it until you correct the brake voltage and motor impedance values or you will burn the brakes or have little conrol.

I doubt your tech will have any idea what that means.

[Burgerman]

Also roboteq...

You cannot just use that with its built in settings as its totally uncontrollable.
It took years and thousands of tests and lenny rewriting the script to make it steer controllably and properly, additional current sensors, some extremely complicated setup etc to get this to work properly.

Theres a monster thread locked at the top of the forum that you really must read before going down that route!


You will need an updated version of this script, and must configure the roboteq to work with it too. Not a small undertaking I assure you!
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-co ... pt-bot.txt

[thecleancompany]

You and Lenny have done a ton of work. I will read and study your work
In the meantime do you know anyone or source in the United States that can sell me brand new 120 amp motor controllers and joysticks
that will just operate Mot 1 and Mot 2 and brakes? Trying to deal with the idiots here is testing my sanity. Its like some sort of a secret society and I am outsider.
Thanks again for your site and all the great things you are doing.
Tony

[Burgerman]

There are lots. But without some sort of very complex software that robotics usage doesent have or need none of them are any different.

There are no better solutions unless you start another roboteq style development project yourself. If there were I would have already been using it!

So basically theres a choice. Mobility controller like R-net, all safe and works but limited to 24V. Or lennys script and roboteq, or his can bus board/system and roboteq. Because the years of development is already done. But plug and play its not!

[Burgerman]

For thse wondering. I know you werent...

I have a lot of programmers installed...


R-net Sunrise OEM
R-net Sunrise DEALER
R-net PGDT Generic OEM
R-net Permobil OEM
R-net Permobil DEALER
R-net ETAC OEM
R-net AMI DEALER
R-net Myra DEALER
PGDT Mobility Programmer Manuf, OEM (C and D versions)
PGDT Industrial Programmer OEM
Dynamic Wizard (all 4 levels)
Dynamic LinX all levels (but no updated ones) and run away. Its horrible.

[ex-Gooserider]

Granted that R-net is better for most uses, but I think a beach chair that is just the two drive motors would be OK w/ a Pilot+ setup - and the last time I looked (granted it's been a while, like years) you could get good used controllers and joysticks for less than US$100 each, and $20-30 for the cable (if not included w/ the other stuff)

Programming software is available, and the cable is a low cost build (schematics posted elsewhere on here) or WoodyGB can make you one...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

That will work, but beach and 20A less torque, and all out dated used worn out stuff. Not been available new for many years now.

If you look at eBay iys possible to get r-net 120 and a basic R-net LED joystick for same or less money. BUT a programming dongle will still definitely cost for r-net!

[Burgerman]

£45 brand new 6 channel seating and lights module, ISM6L
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145936773302

£65 TOO MUCH, another, used...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233259332287


There WAS a 120A Rnet power module, with a bus cable, and a seating module all included £50 delivered in brand appearance but used condition. Until I bought it just now.

And a never used brand new r-net LED joystick, £50 too. Again there isnt now. Why? Because again I bought it...
When stuff appears cheap, its gone and no longer searchable within minutes. Because people like me buy them up fast!

See https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 39#p207007