Permobil M3 on the way, where should I start?

[Burgerman]

But the risks and benefits for everything has to be assessed and decided on by the user himself. It changes nothing. Its for the user to decide not some big brother morons in the government.

[martin007]

Very soon everything will be banned.

[Burgerman]

I thought it was.

[slomobile]

Get a generic R-Net PM on eBay and sell your Permobil one.

DO NOT DO THIS! The seating controller(formerly ICS master module, equivalent to Rnet ISM) is also integrated into the new Power Platform module(formerly Power Module(PM)). There is no longer a separate ICS master module for seating, so reverting to old PM removes the ability to adjust your seating.

There have been reports of people getting authorization to perpetually program their chairs on demand without internet access after registering online a single time. That seems like a good option if true. https://hub.permobil.com/quickconfig and https://youtu.be/LFOoFIHJZzQ

[slomobile]

Well me programming my my chair to steer properly does not endanger anyone else does it?

You might be a dangerous madman on wheels.

What is the first thing any random person on the street says when you pass them in a wheelchair?
"Do you have a license for that thing?"
"How fast is that thing?"
Some bad 'joke' about a speed limit. The jokes a person tells reveal how they think.
At least 50% of the time, the first thing out of a stranger's mouth is some variation of "Disabled people shouldn't be able to do anything I cannot do. Society needs to restrict disabled ability to that which I feel is appropriate."
Those commenters are the vocal constituents of politicians, or they are politicians. They get what they ask for.

https://www.medical-device-regulation.eu/download-mdr/
https://www.fda.gov/media/123602/download
and even if something meets regulations, it will likely not be a financial success unless insurance will pay for it. Almost no insurance pays for things unless Medicare does https://www.medicare.gov/publications/1 ... evices.pdf

[Burgerman]

Regulations and regulations and support systems and "insurance" that isnt free market and more regulation.

You dont have any of that or the waits, bad service, regulations, or crazy prices or restrictions with any normal free market goods like carpets, food, cars, computers. You just buy at copetiticve rices and they cant do enough to help and no wait. Thats the problem. You are not the one waving the cash. And endless beaurocracy all evolved over time to be as far from the free market as possible to screw you.

You have a centrally controlled soviet style system and so do we. Its rediculous.

[slomobile]

While attending a market feedback session at Permobil US prior to release of the Power Platform, an engineer explained some ridiculous EU regulatory hoops they had to jump through for development of the extremely overpriced lights on US models. Including amber turn signals and other EU mandated automotive features that are not even US automotive requirements were forced onto the US market for a thing that is not an automobile.

At least there is this from MDR

(3)This Regulation does not seek to harmonise rules relating to the further making available on the market of medical devices after they have already been put into service such as in the context of second-hand sales.

[Burgerman]

Regulations regulations regulations.
No free market. The EU is a socialist marxist new soviet style system that seeks to make as many regulations - mostly as a way to prevent anyone selling anything into the EU (hence trumps problem with them) as a trade protection racket. But even where it isn done for that reason theres 101 regulations about how a pillow if manufactured. Its not just wheelchairs in the EU its everything. Politcians love it. It gives them power to control everything an everybody and their freinds in huge organisations. Thats why we voted to leave.

Reason for lights.
Anything faster than 4mph can be used on roads legally. So rules for roads is that you must have lights. That includes amber turn signals. I tend to throw them away. Eventually. Whats the point? Same applies to all road going vehicles. Its not difficult. Nor it is expensive. Unless permobil do it. You can buy and fit eu or uk legal lights for the cost of a round of drinks. Some chinese scooters come with legal lights and are under £300 inc the lithium scooter...

[Raro]

Any product related to disability has exorbitant prices. I doubt that no matter how much competition there is, they would lower it. They are not interested.

[Burgerman]

You dont understand how a true free market works. Lower prices mean more sales. Better service means more sales. IF its the user running around with the cash! More sales mean more PROFIT for the company. They can offer a BETTER product with more development towards what you want!

Every business if left to itself, not taxed, legislated, and able to make its own choices. Including cars, carpets, wheelchairs, etc, all see a gap i the market and make a widget that they think that they can make a profit from.
They are free to charge whatever they want. They are free to KEEP the profit. And to hire and fire and pay whatever they have to to get the labour or streamlined manufacturing equipment, or whatever they want.

So you have 2 or 3 wheelchair manufacurers charging high prices and offering crap chairs, and terrible service.

So you realise that you can do better. You can make a better more advanced, cheaper product and sell all the parts or programmers to the people taht want that Just like the snow ski, car, scooter, carpet, computer and every other free market capitalist economy does. The most free ones are also the richest economies. The most socialist and most centrally regulated and high tax ones are the socialist ones. And these are always the poorest ones.

So now the new company, new wheelchair can offer you waht you want. So they as a company sell more, become richer. But they cant do that in the UK or the US or the EU as a free market economy doesent exist especially so for medical stuff. All of it. Legislation, rules, endless layers of beaurocracy prevent that. Its why in a socialist country they line up to get bread. And in a free market capitalist one 40 different brands of cheap quality bread line the shelves waiting for you!

So you dont get your cheaper, better developed, chair, more choices, more brands, with availability of programmers, or lithium, better chargers, 48V, tubeless tyres, suspension that works, properly damped casters, etc etc. Because NO COMPETITION! Like there is for cars for e.g. Or bikes, vaccum cleaners, or back scratchers! I just went on amazon and was overwhelmed at the sheer number of different ones! At super cheap to super expensive prices. Its a stick with a claw. Yet overwhelming choice and low cost. Free markets work.

Its why your ebike has lithium, disk brakes, suspension, brushless motors, does 70mph, tubeless tyres and all for 10% the cost of a permobil. Which has lead bricks, brushed motors, tubes, or solid tyres and marketing suspension that breaks your spine at walking pace. And they wont allow you to program it or fix it.

[playafly187]

So, would the tech that delivers the chair have a basic programmer?

[Burgerman]

Maybe. But the issue is that it will only allow a few settings that are behind walls. And he wont have the time, patience or probably knowledge to do that. Takes a week to get these things spot on for me and I have a programmer. Its all trial and error/test again.

[Raro]

They are free to charge whatever they want.

.
That's why I say this, and even though there's more competition, prices aren't going down. Do you see how a motorcycle or a car is getting cheaper and cheaper? By the way, it requires more and more software, which, like wheelchairs, they don't provide, and it's necessary to replace any part.

Its why your ebike has lithium, disk brakes, suspension, brushless motors, does 70mph, tubeless tyres and all for 10% the cost of a permobil. Which has lead bricks, brushed motors, tubes, or solid tyres and marketing suspension that breaks your spine at walking pace. And they wont allow you to program it or fix it.

This is because the average user does not need great autonomy or to use a chair as if it were a car, and also prefers solid wheels for fear of getting stuck, and because it is a "small" sector compared to others in which profit prevails through extra costs, not through higher sales; we are fewer.

[Burgerman]

You are wrong. Free markets have brought 200 different types of car for sale. With different trim levels, different engines, different gearbox, different wjeels to choose from. And has driven reliability, fuel economy, drive and ride quality, performance gains, and a car today is still cheaper than it was when I was younger compared to wages. Theres now a much longer lifespan, better in every possible way, and more choice than ever.

Same as bread. Or anything.

My ex girlfreind lived in a ex communist country with central planning, no free matket capitalism just socialist run economics. They like much of the socialist/communist world had empty shelves, ONE car to choose from (in her dads case it was the "yugo" and unlike the yugo that went to thewest, it had no interior trim, no door panels, and you waited 1 to 3 years to get one. Non on the shelves. And under that non free market communist/socialist economic system a crap car, that THEY TOLD YOU what wheels trim, engine size, and if it was new (many were not). From your choice of 1 car! And worse it cost them 5x as much as a GOOD car cost us in the rich western capitalist countries. Compared to their wages.

Bread, and all other food, was a case of wait in line daily to see if they had any. If they did it was gone in minutes, and was really expensive. Her dad used to buy petrol in lemonade bottles shipped from hungary because there wasnt any. They bred rabits to eat because the shops had nothing.

The greater the amount of capitalism, the greater the amount of freedom to employ, hire, fire, keep any profit, the less regulation, the less you tax the succcessful and the rich, the less a government interferes at all, and the greater the competition is. And the better and richer a country becomes. It alone drives quality, Wealth. Fills shelves. Provides a better product for less. More choice. Better service. More jobs. More everything!

This stuff does not apply to wheelchairs or medical stuff. Its all paid by the government, regulated to hell, and so as far from a free competitive market as you can get.

[Burgerman]

When my ExGf moved from the former yugoslave republic to the UK which is way to socialist and poor compared to say the USA, she was amazed by many things. Not by the fancy cars (the socialist covernments have those) or by any of the things you would expect. She was amazed by the fact that you could go into a shop. ANY shop. And they had stuff to buy. Not because you were lucky. Stock! 30 different brands of cars, beds, clothes, fridges, etc.
If she wanted anything under a non free capitalist market in yugoslavian republic they had a choice of waiting in line to see if a shop had even the basics like bread. Or waiting weeks or years to see if they could get one.

She came here and saw 200 different types of bread in a supermarket. With no people fighting over it. And to her it was super cheap. And I dont mean just bread.

Thats the difference. Hundreds of free market self employed bakers, some small, some larger that were able to grow their businesses. Why do that do that? Because unlike a non capitalist country in a capitalist market you get to keep the profit! So they invest in bigger factories, better equipment, employ othr people. So now shelves are full. And to sell this stuff, you gotta make it cheaper than the next guy or that supermarket will buy his instead of yours... So two choices. Make BETTER bread that people want. Make CHEAPER bread. Or both. Through bettr planning, greater efficiency, better macinery or production lines. And then you can compete in a competitive market. And make lots of money! Everyone wins.

That doesent happen with anything that is run by governments. It doesent happen with anything that becomes heavily legislated and made beaurocratic. Doesent happen if theres no gains by the baker doing this, because the government taxes him to death. Taxing the rich, successful, is like shooting yourself in the foot. So socialism is evil it bancrupts countries, starves people and forces them to live in ever greater poverty as time goes on. Thats the wheelchair industry. ts over legislated and not a competitive market. The reaons for this vary. But its socialism in the UK. And corporatism, and corruption in the US.

[playafly187]

The M3 finally arrived a few weeks ago and I just had a tech out today for programming. The new chair can indeed only be programmed via the permobil app, not with a dongle. Permobil doesn’t give out that login info to end users. The rep said he was told he would be fired and sued if he shared the login info.

Anyway, as for the programming, he got the chair a lot more usable but it’s not perfect. Oddly enough, the app wouldn’t let him set certain parameters beyond certain levels, it’d throw up a warning saying it was unsafe and couldn’t be done. I didn’t lay eyes on it personally but he seemed like a straight shooter.

Ultimately, the biggest letdown is acceleration. It’s still painfully slow and takes about 4.5 seconds to reach top speed from a dead stop. That’s unacceptable, and the tech agreed it was dumb too. He said he was going to talk to his permobil contact about it and see if anything can be done. I doubt anything will come of it unfortunately.

So that leaves me kinda in limbo. It’s better with regard to some parameters like turning and deceleration, etc. but that darn acceleration is so painfully slow.

If I wanted to make a hardware change to go backwards toward dongle programming that I could do myself, what all would I need to swap out specifically? Coming from a Quickie, this platform is all new to me. Do I just need a replacement control module, a replacement joystick, additional modules for powered seat and leg features? If I could find parts I need for cheap on eBay, it’d probably be worth it imo.

[shirley_hkg]

A decent M3 is 2 grands only.

[Burgerman]

Anyway, as for the programming, he got the chair a lot more usable but it’s not perfect. Oddly enough, the app wouldn’t let him set certain parameters beyond certain levels, it’d throw up a warning saying it was unsafe and couldn’t be done. I didn’t lay eyes on it personally but he seemed like a straight shooter.

Because they only have DEALER LEVEL tools.
And you cant program it to steer properly or even close to that. So in the dealer versions of the programmer there are "walls" configured that prevent him setting anything that they consider too radical.

Which is why: https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 89#p210469

If I wanted to make a hardware change to go backwards toward dongle programming that I could do myself, what all would I need to swap out specifically? Coming from a Quickie, this platform is all new to me. Do I just need a replacement control module, a replacement joystick, additional modules for powered seat and leg features? If I could find parts I need for cheap on eBay, it’d probably be worth it imo.

On that chair I dont know. But probably not easy.

[rover220]

Anyway, as for the programming, he got the chair a lot more usable but it’s not perfect. Oddly enough, the app wouldn’t let him set certain parameters beyond certain levels, it’d throw up a warning saying it was unsafe and couldn’t be done. I didn’t lay eyes on it personally but he seemed like a straight shooter.

Because they only have DEALER LEVEL tools.
And you cant program it to steer properly or even close to that. So in the dealer versions of the programmer there are "walls" configured that prevent him setting anything that they consider too radical.

Which is why: https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 89#p210469

If I wanted to make a hardware change to go backwards toward dongle programming that I could do myself, what all would I need to swap out specifically? Coming from a Quickie, this platform is all new to me. Do I just need a replacement control module, a replacement joystick, additional modules for powered seat and leg features? If I could find parts I need for cheap on eBay, it’d probably be worth it imo.

On that chair I dont know. But probably not easy.

No chance you'll be getting the chair to work properly on rnet. You'll make it drive sure but controlling actuators you've no hope.

[Burgerman]

As I said 2 pages ago. Dont buy. Its all locked down.
If you aready have then it seems like you are stuck with it or have to return it or trade it for something else.

[slomobile]

the app wouldn’t let him set certain parameters beyond certain levels, it’d throw up a warning saying it was unsafe and couldn’t be done.

So that leaves me kinda in limbo. It’s better with regard to some parameters like turning and deceleration, etc. but that darn acceleration is so painfully slow.

If I wanted to make a hardware change to go backwards toward dongle programming that I could do myself, what all would I need to swap out specifically? Coming from a Quickie, this platform is all new to me. Do I just need a replacement control module, a replacement joystick, additional modules for powered seat and leg features? If I could find parts I need for cheap on eBay, it’d probably be worth it imo.

The only experience I have with the new Power Platform is a couple hours using a demo chair for the purpose of providing feedback prior to its release. They were trying to dial in a few settings and I gave my feedback. At the time, the turning speed was painfully slow. Literally. I commented that if someone on your side talks to you, and you turn to speak to them, the long delay in chair turning caused me to turn my head instead, and turn it farther than usual, causing pain, lightheadedness, and double vision. This is very bad for me because I have a 3 level cervical fusion and (very recently discovered) vertebral artery ischemia. If I turn my head too far, my eyes ping pong around (nystagmus), I temporarily lose the ability to speak (dysarthria), and get near passing out (presyncope). I told them that it needs to turn at least quickly enough to turn 90 degrees to face someone walking alongside to answer a question within the typical period it would take anyone to begin answering a question. That period is fairly easy to determine empirically.

I also told them how my older M3 would always run me into the fridge, tables, cabinets, and pin my legs hard because its poor deceleration programming kept the chair moving for a couple seconds after hands off stick. I told them the new programming needed to be smart enough to stop immediately if the prior speed was already low. Not a constant period of deceleration. The chair I tested decelerated better than my old M3 but still needed some improvement.
At the time I tested it, the straight line acceleration was good. Ability to climb obstacles was good. From your comments, seems like they reversed the situation by release time.

The way it used to work on Permobils, you could select your weight range and input it with the ICS seating control switches. That affected permitted seating positions and acceleration. Input a lighter weight range and it would permit reclining back further, and higher acceleration. You might check if you can still do that on power platform. But please be very careful with this and be sure your center of mass is adjusted properly. I bought my M3 used. It was configured for a 100lb double amputee that sat very rearward so they could use the space on the seat in front of them to carry things. I am 300lbs. Within 10 minutes of operating the chair I had accidentally raised the seat lift and flipped it backwards twice going up a gentle sloping driveway. I moved the seat forward 3 notches and that problem was solved.

Beyond that weight range setting, there was a hard limit (wall) built into the programming software that limited possible seating actuator positions to a 'safe' range that could not be changed. Partly to protect the mechanical system from breaking against end stops, and partly to protect operators from ham fisted programmers and themselves.
For example, I was once in Rnet seating mode bringing the seatback up from a reclined position. The headrest knocked a heavy box off a shelf onto the joystick, holding it in the up position. If it were not for the seating position limits, the chair would have folded me in half. But instead it stopped at merely very uncomfortable.

When I reconfigured the F3 chair so that the back recline actuator operated differently as a front chest support angle actuator, the actuator length limits put the ends in the wrong place. There was no way to change them in software. With some trial and error I adjusted the effective length of the actuator and belcrank arm to put the programmed end stops where I needed them mechanically.

[ex-Gooserider]

The M3 finally arrived a few weeks ago and I just had a tech out today for programming. The new chair can indeed only be programmed via the permobil app, not with a dongle. Permobil doesn’t give out that login info to end users. The rep said he was told he would be fired and sued if he shared the login info.

I wouldn't get a Permobil for that reason, but If I did, I'd be inclined to promise that he WOULD be sued by me if he DIDN'T supply the information to me... (Either that or take your chair back and shove it where the sun doesn't shine...)

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

I think what he meant to say was it cannot be over emphasized how important it is that WE can access OEM level programming tools for ourselves.