received new used 646se with a pair of batteries inside

[yeshelp]

HI everyone I hope you are well,

With the limited budget I have and the need to have a back up chair I opted to get this affortable wheelchair that is said to work. I know it is a discountinued model but it is supposed to be functional and it has almost no rust

It has Mk batteries that came with it . The joystick horn works but batteries are probably empty since it does not move. They might have some life left enought for me to roadtest the chair without having to transfer my current batteries so I would give them a try. I have couple questions about the battery setup.

8g24t881 written on the batterie . googles leads me to a page where it is written MK Powered 12 Volt 73.6 AH Deep Cycle Sealed Gel Battery 8G24T881
1)Is there a way to confirm they are real gel and not agmgel?

2) I have a victon ip65 bleu smart charger set to gel already. Is it worth it to charge them individually( for the first time since probably 4 months or more )OR charging both at the same time is ok? how many hours?

The readings as it is I took say
battery A 11.7 v
battery B10.09v
touching A+ and B- when connected shows 22.7volts

3) I marked where the terminals are going to be sure to reconnect them the same way but I wanted to show you the way they arrived . It is different from what I have seen so far (the place the connectors go and there are 5 cables not 4 ). I would like to know if it is a safe way what the previous user did. Because I could always use the anderson connectors from another chair if it is advised to avoid using this 5 wires pattern of linking the batteries together.

Thanks

[Burgerman]

8g24t881 written on the batterie . googles leads me to a page where it is written MK Powered 12 Volt 73.6 AH Deep Cycle Sealed Gel Battery 8G24T881
1)Is there a way to confirm they are real gel and not agmgel?

Yes. I can absolutely garantee that those batteries are gel.

2) I have a victon ip65 bleu smart charger set to gel already. Is it worth it to charge them individually( for the first time since probably 4 months or more )OR charging both at the same time is ok? how many hours?

The readings as it is I took say
battery A 11.7 v
battery B10.09v
touching A+ and B- when connected shows 22.7volts

Then battery A is around 90% discharged.
And battery B is totally absolutely dead beyond the 100% discharged point.
Its possible that if they have been this way for a long time that they are completely knackered...
That does NOT mean that they cannot be charged. Just that they will likely have a fraction of the original capability.

Charge each one INDIVIDUALLY.
ANYTHING can "charge" them in a fashion. Even that mobility charger or that victron.
But to stand a real chance of rescuing the batteries you want to do the following:
Ideally you would charge each one individually at a fixed 13.8V set on a power supply, and at a max of say 2A. And do so for 7 days. Thats because the cells will all be at different state of charge. And be sulfated. A normal charge algo will make them worse!
The problem is that your victron cant really do that. And its standard gel charge algorythm is no good anyway. So it would need setting correctly as a custom profile if it can actually do a 12V battery and not just 24V. And its detailed.


So a question...
Do you have an adjustable power supply so that you can set between 13.6 to 13.8 Volts. And a Maximum current of say 2 or 3A?
Or ANYTHING that puts out about 13.7V?

3) I marked where the terminals are going to be sure to reconnect them the same way but I wanted to show you the way they arrived . It is different from what I have seen so far (the place the connectors go and there are 5 cables not 4 ). I would like to know if it is a safe way what the previous user did. Because I could always use the anderson connectors from another chair if it is advised to avoid using this 5 wires pattern of linking the batteries together.

I have no idea where your 5 wires go...
All that matters is that you connect 2 batteries in SERIES for 24V and that this 24V goes to the chair...

[yeshelp]

Ok thanks

I have no power supply only the victron and another charger that is made for agm voltages from what I remember of old post I made.
I guess I ll have for now to content myself with charging them individually with victron and will see how much life they can hold .

When I will charge them individually, do I need to disconnect all the wires to do it or it does not matter ?.I would leave them as is just making sure the charger end is on pos and neg of a same battery. give if charge time, do the other one then the road test.

Thanks

[martin007]

Can't you fit the batteries from your other powerchair?

[Burgerman]

Connect to one battery. Both terminals.
Set a CUSTOM USER profile. Ignore all the sky is falling warnings it tries to scare you with at every step. Bully it.
Set your victron to do as low amps as it allows.
Set to CV voltage of 14V not more.
Set to terminate after as close to 8 hours CV as it allows or longer. 12 is better.
Set float to 13.8V and I think it has 2 different float levels? Indefinitely.
Set it to never "recondition" or restart all over again...
Dont set to "automatic" charge time or termination...

Set it to the correct temp compensation.

Which is at the bottom here:
To compensate for battery temperature not at 20°C, subtract 0.005 V/cell for each 1°C above 20°C; add
0.005 V/cell for each 1°C under 20°C.

So on ONE battery that would be 6 cells, and remember its a minus figure.

Be VERY sure that victron isnt thinking its charging 2 batts (24V.)

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK1.pdf




All in all thats the best you can do.

[yeshelp]

Yes i can fit them it is just that Ouf stuff just added to my load including a landlord legal situation and teeth issue to manage and snow is arriving surprisingly early this years so I have not much time for action at the moment to move them and move them again , a bit complicated to explain and I admit I should have bought a backup chair earlier but was a bit negligent on that.

I realise I might even have to cut corners and just charge them both at the same time with the custom gel setting already in the victron for (my good batteries) to save me time to be able to do the road test without playing with the settings and rereading the manual etc. Surprising day today.. I have to go with priorities but the road test is also one of them so I might have to do the road test with the batteries it came with quicky and see how long I can roll with them even though I would have prefered to take the path Burgerman just suggested to get the most life back into them.
Thanks have nice evening

[Burgerman]

I always consider old or used batteries as junk regardless. And replace with new regardless. So just charge and test IF it allows that.

Fortunately I have the equipment to FULLY test battery impedance and capacity, and so can evaluate batteries correctly. Not just seat of pants...
And to properly charge. (good tools are worth way more than the initial outlay remember!)

What you really need to do is strip, of find someone that can help you do that. Not you, the chair.
Rebuild with everything cleaned, assessed and repainted or replaced if any part shows any sign of deterioration, corrosion, wear. And replace all bolts and bearings with stainless steel and grease everything properly without fail as its assembled. New battery. New tyres. Then program it correcty foy you. A week of testing and fine tuning. And then scrap that rusty one. Then find another chair and do the same thing to that!

You NEED a 100% fully working tested ready to go backup. Preferably two. Why two?

I once met a parachutist that just told me a story. He jumped. His main chute tangled. He cut it away as trained and was falling again. About to use his reserve parachute as trained to do. And he hesitated. He didnt want to use it. He realised at that moment that if anything bad happened he would have no reserve! Of course he had no choice. But...

Thats why I have many 100% perfect ready to go chairs. Things tend to fail together! Problems arrive like buses. All come at once. The time to do this is BEFORE you need them.

[yeshelp]

HI
I hope you are all well,

Yes I do agree that 2 fully back up chair is what to aim for especially since i use used ones.

I charged(24v with victron ip65) the batteries for 2days and now they show total 26.26volt (battA 13.20v , battB 13.05v)
I put both motors on drive and the joystick is connected. The joystick is a pg drive with 4 holes connector.

When i push the joystick power button it does not want to move the chair . In this 30 sec vid on imgur here what it does.

The charity place where i bought it from say they only accept working stuff in good order and I talk to the administration person that told me she tried the chair her self when they received it and that it was going fast .They did not have the charger so it was left discharging for xmonths. During the transportation, the joystick 4 holes connector has volountarily been disconnected. It has passed like 2weeks disconnected from the chair. Now connected

Any idea what i could try or info that would be usefull to share?

https://imgur.com/a/KMgXvsC

Thanks

[Burgerman]

error "Imgur is temporarily over capacity. Please try again later."
success false
status 403

Not working.

they show total 26.26volt (battA 13.20v , battB 13.05v

Means fully charged. Does not mean they are any good...
Check freewheel levers, check voltage when/as you try to drive the chair.

[Burgerman]

Vid now works. Same advice.
3 things:

1. CHECK VOLTAGE while it is turned on.
2. CHECK FREEWHEEL LEVERS are both fully off/in gear/brake on.
3. AND:

[yeshelp]

Thanks Burgerman,
the trick forward backward worked! I guess when disconnected for a days the joystick goes in lock mode because juste unplug and replug 5 min did not lock it.

I made the road test outside and it works well , just has a small pull to the left when trying to go straith but I can live with that, I tell it to share the info .
I made 2 small videos indoor with wheel in the air to show the sound it makes.
The right motor make a louder noise . It is the video where there is a yellow- black tool on the floor. https://imgur.com/EAaUbDh

The left motor does less noise but seems to do 2 types of noise. https://imgur.com/w87IPsX

can you hear the sound well?
Ideas about what it means ? maybe the noise indicates brushes to change or else?

I dont aim at having a chair in perfect condition. It has some mileage on it but not a lot of rust. I just want it to be safe and do what I can to prolong its life. I Imagine that the motors are the priorities. Not knowing its past I guess It is better to open the brushes right?
thanks

[Burgerman]

Says over capacity try later...
Tried later, same thing.
That service is useless.

[yeshelp]

Thanks for letting me know .
Lets see if it works better with vimeo

https://vimeo.com/1139150024?share=copy&fl=sv&fe=ci

https://vimeo.com/1139150015?fl=pl&fe=sh

[Burgerman]

Your camera is the wrong way around...

The motors sound like a set of typical motors. The first link sounds a bit worse and the rim doesent run straight.

The ONLY way to find out what is going on would be to completely disassemble them, and examine all the parts, and replace all wear components. And throw away any parts that are worn.

Since only bearings and brushes are actually available then the question is why do it? I might, because I like to know. And to me its not difficult.

IF I did, I would strip and clean all parts. Check wear on commutator, armature electrical continuity and resistance (all sets should be the same and not open or low resistance) magnetic flux strength (not simple, you would need a set of new ones to compare) check brush housings and balance of armature. Check for gear backlash, etc. Examine and clean all brake parts. Or replace. Then replace motor and gearbox bearings, rubber cush drive coupling, brushes, and repack gearbox with grease. Also examine woodruff key and output shaft for wear or fretting. Repaint parts, reassemble with new bolts.

If any parts are not servicable, worn, and unavailable, bin. Replace with new motors. Thats normally the best option.

[yeshelp]

Hi
when you say the camera is the wrong way around , what do you mean?

I dont think I can do all the things that you would do about the motor. Verifying the brushes and changing them if needed seems to be accessible and to be done from times to times anyway. I took a old brocken motor and was able to remove one brush so Im confident I could do it. I have seen a video of someone removing the cap of a wheelchair motor to look at the armature the brushes touch. His where black, I plan to order a fiberglass to clean mine if need be.

When trying to buy new brushes from sunrise , they tell me it would be 150 dol for 4 of them which i feel is absurd. As you say there are probably brushes available that fit that i can order at lower price. I asked the sunrise guy while I had him on the phone what was the sizes of the 3 screws that hold the front cap of the motor since they are not showned in the manual and he said that he has no info on them. I am not 100 pourcent sure that i should try to remove them. Do you think once out it is possible to identify them to replace them with stainless ones or at least with new ones? If I could order them in advance i would like that.

I am a bit wary of stripping those 3 screws that hold the front cap. Would adding some anti rust penetrant before help or i should avoid puting that on since it could make the screws's x more slippery for the x screwdriver head hence more chances of stripping?

thanks

[Raro]

If I were you, I wouldn't touch anything. From what I've seen in the photo, they're four-pole motors; you'll only be able to remove the two outer brushes without removing the motor. I would just grease everything as much as possible to prevent corrosion.

[yeshelp]

Yes they are 4 pole motors.

They don't have the ball and levers at the top for the freewheel on the gear box so they should be easier to remove either by removing just the top nuts of the motor or by removing the bracket which I now have the tool for (and successfully loosened 3 out of 4 bracketbig bolts from 2 very rusty chairs. I dont think it would be a big issue to remove the motors.

Aren't the noise of the 2 motors a concern to ear? It does not sound normal . Between openning all the motor parts and doing nothing wouldn't it be wise to at least look at the brushes and change them if need be? I already created a tool out of a sacrificial knife with a angle grinder to fit the plastic cover of brushes all their lenght. Maybe the noise comes from brushes only.

I have no clue if the brushes are end of life or not. From what i remember checking the motor brush is kind of the most important thing to do yearly and it migt have been a while that they have not been changed. Apparently that could cause more serious problem to roll with brushes that need to be changed.

[yeshelp]

And all the top of motor bolts easily loosened at first try without lubricant.

[Burgerman]

Its obvious from all your posts that you dont have the skills, or knowledge or physical ability to do anything this complicated properly and dont really recognise even what you are looking at.

Options.
Buy a set of new motors and fit them. Or get someone with a brain and experience working with tools, bolts, threads, motorcycles, or something to fit them. Dont pay an "expert", those will charge a fortune and likely know little more than you do. Most are useless. The odd one will be OK but how will you find them?
NON of these experts will have the knowledge or abilities to disassemble and fix old motors because even if labour was free, parts are not available. There are places that refurb motors, but all they really do is look at the parts, fit new bearings and brushes and five them a coat of paint. At a lot of £££.

So as above. Use it as it is. Or replace with new (quite cheap from sunrise) or at least GOOD used stripped from demo chair or never fitted.

Hi
when you say the camera is the wrong way around , what do you mean?

I mean every Laptop, Desktop PC Computer and TV and cinema has the screen horizontal. When you do a video vertically you end up with most of the screen wasted and unused and a tiny bit in the middle with the movie in it...

I dont think I can do all the things that you would do about the motor. Verifying the brushes and changing them if needed seems to be accessible and to be done from times to times anyway. I took a old brocken motor and was able to remove one brush so Im confident I could do it. I have seen a video of someone removing the cap of a wheelchair motor to look at the armature the brushes touch. His where black, I plan to order a fiberglass to clean mine if need be.

Theres zero point in randomly fitting brushes alone. At very least you need to do as I described in full. Unless the brushes are the ONLY problem. But would you even recognise a brush problem if you looked at them? What about the copper commutator they run on? Would you recognise one that needs attention? What about the brush holders? Problem is that you dont have any experience and dont know what you are looking for. And to swap a set of brushes means removal of motors anyway. Already beyond you.

When trying to buy new brushes from sunrise , they tell me it would be 150 dol for 4 of them which i feel is absurd. As you say there are probably brushes available that fit that i can order at lower price.

8mph linix motor as used on the Jive chair, same as yours.
Part 112281 Motor brush kit for 4 - pole motor 4 pcs./pack £ 6.00
So £12 total. Plus delivery. Sunparts website.

I asked the sunrise guy while I had him on the phone what was the sizes of the 3 screws that hold the front cap of the motor since they are not showned in the manual and he said that he has no info on them.

Again you are showing that you have no experience.
First of all those are not available to buy seperately, they come as part of a complete motor/brake assembly. So a dumb parts guy wont have a clue.
I can tell you without looking that they will be common metric threads. So can only ever be M3 or M4 in that situation.
I would take one out. Use my micrometer to see thread diameter (3 or 4 mm) then measure bolt length, and order a box of STAINLESS bolts that size as a box is usually not much more than ordering say 8 or 10. And would use cap screws, (thats allen bolts to the man in the street!). And GREASE!

I am not 100 pourcent sure that i should try to remove them. Do you think once out it is possible to identify them to replace them with stainless ones or at least with new ones? If I could order them in advance i would like that.

You cant. Remove, measure, throw away old ones. Order replacements.

I am a bit wary of stripping those 3 screws that hold the front cap. Would adding some anti rust penetrant before help or i should avoid puting that on since it could make the screws's x more slippery for the x screwdriver head hence more chances of stripping?

Spray with WD 40, leave it a day.
Use a CORRECT SIZED and CORRECT TYPE of screwdriver, (probably posidrive no2?) and hold it and use it correctly. The THREAD will snap before the X in the head slips. If that doesent happen then read this sentence again!!!
Before you snap the thread, stop! Use the max safe force only. We are back to experience again. Stop looking for sprays on Amazon...

What is the point of removing that cover?
You first ned to remove the MOTOR. Then strip everything completely. If you cant do that then leave it alone before you cause yourself a lot more problems.