IPX ratings...

[Burgerman]

4 Protected against solid foreign objects of 1mm and greater
4 Water splashed against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects

IPX ratings...

Our joysticks, as far as I can tell are all IPX4. Thats what the R-Net ones state for e.g.

Which means its not all that dust proof. For e.g the charger holes can be blocked.
But should be safe in rain. At least if assembled correctly.

[Raro]

It's not very watertight; a light rain can damage it, and even more so the buttons for controlling seat functions; they should be much better protected considering how expensive they are and the function they perform.

[Burgerman]

Well you may see something different to me. But I saw mine soaked in rain a few times while getting back from town. On one occasion a total downpour with water streaming off it. No issues. But totally waterproof would be nice!

Rainwater - unlike that crap of the roads - barely conducts electricity at all. So if it got in it wouldnt do much harm if at all. But it *MIGHT* cause it to stop working if unlucky while it dries out.

In a similar thing, they are designed to work in as low as -10C absolute coldest too. Thats OK by me as I dont work below zero either. But some maniacs go out in real cold. Why? Beats me! I used to do that when I had a dog. He made me... But that was a terible experience. I hate the cold.

*************

Heres a very old chair that is only used for dirty jobs. It has holes in the rubber boot. The case top/bottom rubber sealing gasket was thrown away years ago. This chair has been left outside all winter for 2 years. It doesent seem to mind a bit of water. Washed for 5 full mins.

DONT TRY THIS AT HOME, ME I DONT CARE! I washed the joystick to prove a point.
I know It will dry out later even if it stops working. But it doesent stop...

MOVIE Rinse off salt with hose:
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/hoseshorter.mp4

Pics...

Hole... + old masking tape where button fell off! No seal. No problem!

[emilevirus]

That's not true for me. The CJSM2 stops working after going under pouring rain. The screen gets all steamed up. I have to use hair dryer to get it working again.

[Burgerman]

Well I havent tested the CJSM2 to see if its hose pressure proof yet... I rinse chairs of salt but avoid spraying above seat level. Rain never an issue.

There are rubber/foam seals and gaskets around the screen I think so maybe yours could do with reassembling with care and a hint of vaseline or silicone grease around various assembly points.

[emilevirus]

The buttons around the screen are just glued rubber. On mine rubber starts to rip so of course water gets in.

[Raro]

The buttons around the screen are just glued rubber. On mine rubber starts to rip so of course water gets in.

As you say, that's the biggest problem with the rubber: it sticks, and with sweat, humidity, or use, it peels off and breaks. It also makes poor contact and isn't sold as a replacement, or at least I haven't found it.

[Burgerman]

I see they look like they are breakable. And so treat them accordingly. So far non have failed. And everything has a service life.

If they do/did then several options.
1. PG will refurbish. Its a part exchange system. You get a effectively brand new one in a brown box. They take yours.
2. EBay. Thats why I have a bunch of new ones as spares bought when they appear at the right price.

[emilevirus]

1. PG will refurbish. Its a part exchange system. You get a effectively brand new one in a brown box. They take yours.

For how much?

[Burgerman]

Unknown. But I got 3 new ones over a 12 month search from tom kilmore, eBay, and Rover on here. 125, 125, and £150 all with factory screen protectors and never used. So theres also other ways.

I recently got a cjsm for £80 on an offer. That was the going rate last year for brand new ones on eBay. Many were for sale. Mine was offered at 100, I paid 80.



Be patient, and fish carefully and make offers!

Also got a 120A power module, and a seating module, and 2 bus cables, all in one go for £50 recently...
So a full colour R-net system with 6 channel seating/lights etc, ready to fit for 80+50 = £130!

[Burgerman]

Incidentally, if its just the rubber buttons around the screen or the base you want then those are all available at a silly price. Easy to swap too by the look of things. That wont fix the leaky screen issue... Remmber this needs VAT and shipping adding on. If you break these then grab some while you can.

https://www.warmex.net/en/cjsm2-display ... 021-p82267 Wont fit permobils clone obviously.

And theres more should you want.
https://www.warmex.net/en/parts-mobilit ... et-keypads

But by the time you do all the buttons its as cheap to find a brand new joystick @ £125 ish, if you are patient.

You can ge these from PG too in the UK from memory (mentioned many years ago during a call). But that wont stop your screen leaking. That will need disassembly.

[Raro]

Wow, thanks for the link! I asked PG a while ago and they told me to send them the unit for repair; they wouldn't sell it to me.

[Raro]

Mine is from 2015 and it says they're for versions from May 2021 onwards. To be honest, in the picture it looks the same to me, but...

[Burgerman]

Well the question is whats the difference?

Maybe rover knows.

[Burgerman]

Does this have the same part number?
It has dimensions but this place has daft pricing...

https://silema.nl/product/display-r-net ... ype-cjsm2/

[Raro]

I remember that site; I shared it in a post here. What infuriates me most is that the manufacturer or distributor, such as Sunrise, doesn't offer it for sale as a spare part.

[Burgerman]

Thats because thats not how they themselves buy parts. They buy in ready made sub assemblies like a complete joystick, or motor etc.

They see it as a part. They can sell you another identical part. But not part of a part! With some minor service in field replacement bits like motor brushes.

They dont have properly trained £££ techs in the field. Replacing a joystick part needing deeper skills, or a gearbox bearing etc isnt in their their job description.

Years ago when I was younger a mechanic routinely rebuilt car engines, and replaced things like bearings, rings, etc. They almost never do this today. I remember a mechanic stripping and rebuilding my van gearbox with new parts. Now you just replace the complete part. Same with a water pump. Those sort of skills are hard to find today.

[Raro]

Of course, nothing gets repaired anymore, but often it's because they don't supply spare parts, or if they do, the prices, combined with the labor, make it not worth repairing. But things like this, which is something that wears out and is basically a rubber piece with glue...

[Burgerman]

it's because they don't supply spare parts, or if they do, the prices, combined with the labor, make it not worth repairing.

But that is reality. It COSTS to have parts. To store, have inventory, to have additional overdraft, to have to stocktake, to have a complex inventory ordering system, to buy or sell a single part. In labour, in dead stock, that may never be sold. And in storage and shipping. So it really isnt viable or practical.
Thats why we have ready assembled sub systems like complete motors, complete joysticks, etc.

If you were to build a wheelchair or a car or any complex item from parts the cost will actually be 5 or 10x as much. And that is if the same level of profit is made.

Out in the comercial world, getting a tech guy trained enough to swap or rebuild things like motors or joysticks, costs, adds dangers, complexity, maybe voids legislation that a chair has to comply with, complicates warranties, and will result in bogging down the system. Then theres the stock and parts system complexity. The reason things are how they are is because a maker of things like complex electronics, be it a TV or a joystick, or a power supply, etc isnt geared up to supply parts. Its cheaper for THEM to just throw one away and make a full one. Its why in todays world we cant buy motor parts. Its not financially viable. These things are assembled for good - economically at speed. Bin it when it fails. Theres no drain plugs on many car gearboxes any longer. Theres no grease nipples on suspension or prop shafts. Everything today is manufactured on a fast cheap complex production line. Prop shaft wears out? Replace th whole thing it cheaper. The way things are made today not designed to be maintained.

As an END USER where reliability of repair, speed and ease of repair to a known standard doesent matter. We CAN take stuff aparrt, time isnt money. That 2nd callout doesen happen when the fix didnt work. We can take time, figure out how to fix it etc. Be we are not the target. We are unusual. Most chairs will just get a new joystick, new motor, order, fit, forget. By some service agent.

[emilevirus]

That's why it's good to have competition. IMO it's not ok to sell a $1500 joystick with a glued rubber piece that they call 'splashproof'.

[Burgerman]

Well tere is. But its not like computers or refrigerators or even hobby stuff as its a very small market in comparison. Worse, the free market almost dosent apply as theres just a handful of chair brands, and those are the customers, not us. And those are generally paid for by socialit run institutions, insurence, goverments. Its not like you can choose which lapop or CPU or brand of vaccuum cleaner and vote with your wallet.

A week ago my wahing machine started sounding like it was full of bricks. It wasnt. I was looking at brands and models, programs, efficiency ratings, fancy bubble wash settings, PC controllability and prices as well as 100 different models and it had to be a 9 or 11kg drum, and black... Spent a week with my head spinning. Ended up with a samsung XYZ PC contollable eco one... Partly because I have a full parts and availability PDF file and a place to buy these. It tells me how much power its using, how much each program uses, allows me to set many parameters and I am a control freak... These things are built so cheaply that its not worth repairing, just replace!

[Burgerman]

That's why it's good to have competition. IMO it's not ok to sell a $1500 joystick with a glued rubber piece that they call 'splashproof'.

Well the engines in most cars are sat on 3 engine mounts that are two metal plates glued onto a rubber block...

Many types, all sorts of shapes, but all just glued on rubber.

[emilevirus]

Good quality rubber, good quality glue though. CJSM2 comes unglued or rips after only a few years, and it's not like I pull on it on purpose. They COULD come up with a better design but they refuse to as it'd mean less sales for them.

[Raro]

It's absurd, they should supply replacements. It's an external wear part, a sticker. Besides, how is it possible that the manufacturer doesn't sell it and then you find it on a website like the one in the link? It's like not supplying tires for a car: "Bring it in to be replaced or throw it away."

[Burgerman]

Small market.

You dont buy tyres from ford direct. Or a ford dealer. They get those from aftermarket suppliers at a fraction of the price.

But you can order a starter, alternator, air conditioning pump, exhaust etc. But thats the same as buying a wheelchair motor. Go to your ford dealer and try and buy parts for the water pump, or the starter or alternator. In the past you could. No longer possible. It IS possible to get those parts from a 3rd party supplier that isnt the same as the OEM parts. Thats because a bunch of alternative manufacturers srung up to fill a need with non standard parts. If there were as many powerchairs as cars then likely the same would happen. They see a gap, make a solution, make some money! The free market in action. Even where you CAN buy a stock new alternator, or whatever the cheap aftermarket suppliers hoover up 99% of sales because its cheaper. Most dont know the difference. Your cars brakes, bearings, filters, water pumps, and most of the rest of it may well be non OEM 3rd party made parts.

In a similar vein as the joystick display/buttons, take an instrument binacle in your car. Years ago you could take that apart and order the bit that was broken. Say a circuit board or a clock. Today the whole assembly will be one pre assembled OEM unit and thats because keeping 70 parts in stock isnt viable. So most visit a breakers.

This is why it makes much more sense to buy NEW (or refurbed brown box as new), joysticks etc from eBay for 10% of the crazy new pricing from a chair manufacturer. Thats why I have a 3 SPARE CJSM2 joysticks, 2 LED joysticks. An attendent one, a CJSM module, 4x 120A power modules, 4 seating/lighting modules, a huge box of bus cables in every length, and some battery looms. And some actuator looms... Battery cables etc. And a programmer. And a few aditional things too. The LOT cost me about £1100 over a several year period. And its all either new, (all joysticks) or as good as new (all the rest).

Buying GENUINE OFFICIAL NEW spares like a screen or whatever to fix up an old used joystick or replace a PM or Seating module doesent make any finacial sense. I can fix any chair, replace the COMPLETE electronics system on any of my chairs, without a wait, without relying on hers, and no downtime or "stuck" waiting.

[Burgerman]

Small market.

You dont buy tyres from ford direct. Or a ford dealer. They get those from aftermarket suppliers at a fraction of the price.

But you can order a starter, alternator, air conditioning pump, exhaust etc. But thats the same as buying a wheelchair motor. Go to your ford dealer and try and buy parts for the water pump, or the starter or alternator. In the past you could. No longer possible. It IS possible to get those parts from a 3rd party supplier that isnt the same as the OEM parts. Thats because a bunch of alternative manufacturers srung up to fill a need with non standard parts. If there were as many powerchairs as cars then likely the same would happen. They see a gap, make a solution, make some money! The free market in action. Even where you CAN buy a stock new alternator, or whatever the cheap aftermarket suppliers hoover up 99% of sales because its cheaper. Most dont know the difference.

In a similar vein, take an instrument binacle. Years ago you could take that apart and order the bit that was broken. Today the while assembly will be one pre assembled unit and thats because keeping 70 parts in stock isnt viable.

This is why it makes much more sense to buy NEW or refurbed as new, joysticks etc from eBay for 10% of the crazy new pricing from a chair manufacturer. Thats why I have a huge box of CJSM2 joysticks, 2 LED joysticks, a CJSM module, 4x 120A power modules, 4 seating/lighting modules, a huge box of bus cables in every length, and some battery looms. And some actuator looms... And a programmer. And a few aditional things too. The LOT cost me about £1100 and its all either new, (all joysticks) or as good as new (all the rest).

Buying spares to fix up an old used joystick or replace a PM or Seating module etc doesent make any finacial sense. I can fix any chair, replace the COMPLETE electronics system on any of my chairs, without a wait, without relying on hers, and no downtime or "stuck" waiting.

I even have a few REDEL cables, Pilot plus joysticks, power modules etc sitting around. If anyone is interested?

[martin007]

Today there are many "parts-changers" and few mechanics.

I try to stay away from both of them.
I don't like being robbed or treated like a fool.

I have little money and a lot of time.
I have more experience and tools than many technicians.

The lack of affordable screen replacements makes these joysticks less appealing...

[Burgerman]

Today there are many "parts-changers" and few mechanics.

Today that parts changer IS the mechanic...
"Mechanics" with few skills are cheaper, easy to find in all industries.
The ones that were called real mechanics are now specialists. On higher pay. You will find them building race engines in a fancy tuning business, or rebuilding engines in a specialist engineering shop ready to sell as a "reconditioned unit" to a modern mechanic... Ready to fit.
This is economically better for all concerned and it has developed this way for those very reasons.

And today all the small repair parts that a "real" mechanic would need, are either unavailable or if they are its specialist stuff, or higher quality race parts or whatever. Super expensive.

This is why you cant get a chair programmed... No skills. Its why its alsways better to DO IT YOURSELF be it chairs, cars, computers, houses and plumbing, electrical, or whatever. Good tools are cheap in the end, and hard won personal skills mean that YOU are not having to suffer the consequences or cost of this modern system full of fools. Even if like me you cant physically do this stuff most of the time, you can DELEGATE! I have freinds, carers, ex GFs etc that can all help me do whatever needs doing. Some things I can do. Not many. Some things I just cant do without my carer/freind giving me huge intensive help! But I have the brain. And the tools.