Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

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Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby Cal » 13 Apr 2011, 12:28

Hello all,

Don't know where to begin with this one!

I have a Chrysler Grand Voyager (conversion by Alfred Bekker) which I've had since new (Jan 2007). The conversion is basically the same as the Braun Entervan (lowered floor, side ramp entry etc.). Overall it's the best wheelchair accessible vehicle I've owned, and definitely gives the most civilised travelling experience - compared to my previous vehicle (Ford Galaxy) which had a rear ramp entrance and basically sat you in the boot. It also didn't have enough head height for me to sit properly in my powerchair (the adaptations were all based around when I previously used my manual chair). My PA would have to strap down the rear of the wheelchair and then come around to the middle row of seats and then strap down the front of the chair. All in all a bit of a faff, and my view from high up in the middle of the vehicle was extremely restricted also!. Using my Balder powerchair with automatic tie down in the Chrysler, things now go a lot quicker and smoother, and I've finally got full visibility out of the windows!

Having said all that, the Chrysler has not been without its problems!. Too many to bore you with at the moment, but I thought I'd ask for your help and share a few recent problems ....


1) Battery Problems
This is the longest standing issue with the vehicle - I have suffered so many occasions with a flat battery that I've lost count of actually how many!.

I thought I had a battery drain on either the electric ramp or the Munro suspension (air compressor) so an auto electrical firm fitted inline cut-off switches for me which meant I could isolate the ramp/suspension when the vehicle is parked (engine off). It did seem a bit better but I started experiencing flat batteries again (I'm now on my 3rd battery since new as Chrysler kept thinking it was a battery problem). The alternator seems fine, but my low miles may not be enough to recharge the battery.

I personally think the battery is undersized for all the electrical equipment onboard (powered doors, ramp, air suspension etc. - all of which I try not to use until I start the engine). I did read on a couple of forums that other owners of non-converted Grand Voyagers also experienced problems with flat batteries. There was some suggestion that the cranking amps of the diesel coupled with the load from the electrical system was too much for the battery (which I think is the same size as on the petrol Grand Voyagers) - and this would be exacerbated by only doing short journeys.

Has anyone else experienced problems with flat batteries (especially on the diesels), and if so, did fitting a larger capacity battery solve the issue?

I've used a portable jump starter in the past, which worked well on up to 3 or 4 litre petrol engines, but even the RAC guy laughed and said it wouldn't have any chance of starting the 2.8 diesel engine on this vehicle!. So I went and got this heavy duty version from Machine Mart which I now carry in the boot (it weighs a ton!):

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/jump-start-4000

.... and I can confirm, it does start it!


2) Engine Management Light
After getting the car back from its last service, the engine management light came on. We took it back into the garage and they said not to worry about it as it was a warning referring to gas mixtures, most likely to do with them replacing filters etc. - but that there were no problems with emissions as they had just put it through it's MOT. They cleared the error log, but again the light came back on - within about 10 miles after them clearing it. This has happened several times now, each time they've cleared it thinking that it's some sort of 'memory' problem (they've even tried different hand held error units to clear the fault log - all to no avail). They are not a Chrysler dealership since my local dealer closed and moved quite a distance away (they're actually a local coachbuilders but work on all wheelchair adapted vehicles, minibuses, coaches etc.).

They now 'think' it's a real problem and requires some sort of valve or sensor replaced - which they 'hope' will clear it .... although they're not brimming with confidence, and I'm not so keen to be the one paying to 'let them have a go'! - May have to contact Chrysler direct and see if they've appointed a more local service centre.


3) Rust!
I have never seen a car like this get rust problems so quickly. I've had to have the exhaust pipe and box replaced, whole sections underneath cut out and redone and re-painted. I've been told all the underseal will now have to be stripped off and redone since it's hanging off!. Admittedly, the past couple of winters have been harsh, but we have several other vehicles and none of them have suffered like this.

This car cost me £40k - and for the four and a bit years I've owned it, it has cost me thousands more, just to keep it on the road. I am not a heavy user (which I sometimes think might be part of the problem). The car has only done 17.5k miles in all that time - it's basically to take me to and from work Monday to Friday. I try to look after this car (admittedly not in John's league!) and to catch problems before they start, but this vehicle is high maintenance - both in terms of time and money!

This style of conversion works for me - but if I had the choice, I'd never buy another Chrysler again. Chrysler UK and their dealers have not exactly covered themselves in glory with their level of service or helpfulness - in fact, once I had bought the car, they didn't want to know :(

OK - so this post ended up being a bit longer than I intended! ;)

Cal
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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby Burgerman » 13 Apr 2011, 13:14

Several things.

I had a flat battery the first week I owned mine. 4 years ago. I took a look at the battery drain when everything was switched off. Its higher than a typical car but isnt exessive. Even so I also looked at the battery. It isnt anything special, and isnt deep cycle.

The drain is enough to discharge the battery (and its NOT related to the modifications) inside a 2 week period. After 7 days it has dischaarged the NON DEEP CYCLE battery by about half. Partly due to the power the lowering suspension takes, partly because of the resting battery drain. A few months of this means a NON deep cycle battery that isnt that good anyway is past ots best. Hence your starting issues.

I fitted an Odyssey the same as I use in my powerchair. That isnt damaged as fast by deep cycling. It can make better power (bigger starting current) even when a little discharged. So if its paarked for a week it starts it easily. But if I leave it longer than a week, I also use a maintainance charger. Or in summer a solar charger, of 5 watts, connected up. I never had a problem from then on.

Now, this stuff applies to many modern cars with lots of electrics. But the chrysler needs use. A good battery, and a maintainance charger definitely. Especially the deseasel.

As for rust, never an issue. not a trace. but I dont drive much in salt, and mine is left hand drive modified by Rollx in the US rather than by Alfred Bekker. And they do rather more of them.

That said theres a forum user that has a Braun van with a very rusty ramp door modification with holes rotted through... So I think these are not better. Even though more expensive.
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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby Burgerman » 13 Apr 2011, 13:17

Added... If you have had to use this then your battery is already damaged.
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/produ ... start-4000

You cannot deep cycle a starter only battery more than once or twice before thats it... So you will keep having this issue. The ONLY battery worth fitting to this van is the biggest Odyssey one you can fit. And keep it charged.
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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby segreen » 16 Apr 2011, 20:09

I've had battery problems on my Braun Entervan. It's a 2005 with 50k on the clock so I do get around a bit. Since fitting a Odyessy 1500 I've not had a battery problem. As for rust I've had a small hole in the door sill caused by the plastic moulding on the door vibrating. It seems to me that the build quality of American cars leaves a lot to be desired - not in the same league as European or Japanese cars.

Steve
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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby Cal » 18 Apr 2011, 14:39

Many thanks for the feedback guys - I will look into the Odyessy battery, which I think is this one listed here:

http://www.tayna.co.uk/ODYSSEY-PC1500DT-1500-Cranking-Amps-P7671.html

Out of interest, did you have to make any alterations to your battery tray to get one of these things to fit - or is it a standard size?

Have now got the car booked into a Chrysler dealership to get the engine management light checked out.

Also going to get a quote from a local firm to redo underseal (after checking/repairing any other problems!).

Will keep you updated.
Cheers,
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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby Burgerman » 18 Apr 2011, 14:49

Designed to fit. Straight swap. Get a cheap fault code reader from ebay, it may be nothing and you can see for yourself and turn off the error code... About 10 uk pounds...

Scroll down... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/tools.htm

Tayna will do a VAT free battery, save 40 pounds! If you fill in a vat exemption as its for a disabled adapted zero rated vehicle. I think.
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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby Burgerman » 18 Apr 2011, 15:20

>>> As for rust I've had a small hole in the door sill caused by the plastic moulding on the door vibrating.

That small hole is part of the modifications that Braun/rollx/bekker do. I dont mean they make the hole!!! But they extend the metalwork just at this point. Its rusted because its not rustproofed as well as it should be. I have watched the Rollx/Bekker vans (same thing usingf rollx parts) being modified in that area and its pretty major cutting and welding at that point. Braun are just the same basic modification here.

Take a look! Heres one that has had extensive welding and spraying, currently being re assembled with extended door openings, new lowered floor, etc. Its a very major re design/refloor. Everything, from pipes, wires, including exhausts, fuel and brake lines, air con pipes, fuel tank etc is moved, changed. Not just the floor. Its a seriously major change!

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images-rollx-bekker/ pictures from a UK Bekker / rollx van build! 4 relates to where your hole is. Its caused by welding to lower the door opening, moving the lower door frame down etc. It should have been re rust proofed from the rear. Mine is although bekker didnt build it, Rollx did. Using the same parts exact. Bekker builds Roxxl vans in the UK effectively. Braun? Dunno...
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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby Cal » 20 Apr 2011, 16:39

Have now ordered Odyssey 1500 and a CTEK charger :D

Have also just checked what battery is currently in the Chrysler and it appears to be an Optima Red Top (50 aH). It's cranking ability is around half that of the Odyssey, but from my limited knowledge, I thought Optima's were a good make .... hopefully I've not jumped in too soon with this fix!. :roll:

This was my 3rd battery from new (I think the other two were Chrysler branded). They were all replaced by Chrysler under warranty, but now it's out of my own pocket I hope the combination of a new battery and the occasional charge will keep it ticking over.

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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby Burgerman » 20 Apr 2011, 19:12

A red top is about a third less capacity, but more importantly its not a deep cycle battery. And every time you park for a few days you are deep cycling it. So it will be past its best.

The odyssey is a better match. Actually about as good as you can get that will fit. The ctek charger can be left on any time you dont use it for more than a few days.
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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby dannos85 » 20 Aug 2012, 01:39

Burgerman wrote:>>> As for rust I've had a small hole in the door sill caused by the plastic moulding on the door vibrating.

That small hole is part of the modifications that Braun/rollx/bekker do. I dont mean they make the hole!!! But they extend the metalwork just at this point. Its rusted because its not rustproofed as well as it should be. I have watched the Rollx/Bekker vans (same thing usingf rollx parts) being modified in that area and its pretty major cutting and welding at that point. Braun are just the same basic modification here.

Take a look! Heres one that has had extensive welding and spraying, currently being re assembled with extended door openings, new lowered floor, etc. Its a very major re design/refloor. Everything, from pipes, wires, including exhausts, fuel and brake lines, air con pipes, fuel tank etc is moved, changed. Not just the floor. Its a seriously major change!

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images-rollx-bekker/ pictures from a UK Bekker / rollx van build! 4 relates to where your hole is. Its caused by welding to lower the door opening, moving the lower door frame down etc. It should have been re rust proofed from the rear. Mine is although bekker didnt build it, Rollx did. Using the same parts exact. Bekker builds Roxxl vans in the UK effectively. Braun? Dunno...



Nice to see under the carpet without pulling my own car to bits. :D

Have you any more related photos to the insides of the bekker / rollx vans?
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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby Burgerman » 20 Aug 2012, 02:22

I have somewhere. God knows where... Take a trip and have a look around!]
They were doing 3 at once when I was last there.

Its pretty major cutting and bracing the vans to keep the shape and chassis straightness while they weld the new (rollx) pre fabbed floor in. Doors, exhausts, fuel tanks, heating and ventilating pipes, brake, wiring, fuel lines, suspension mods, you name it... It gets changed, swapped, moved, etc. But all done very professionally. I used to build race cars and ikes, and custom cars before that, so know what I am looking at. Its a well engineered and safe job. But rust proofing can never match the factory treatment on welded or modified parts. Still a lot of effort goes into rust treatment on the welded parts and new bits.
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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby ex-Gooserider » 20 Aug 2012, 10:27

Don't know the details, or how accurate it is, but I was told back when van shopping, that the older conversions had MAJOR rust issues (don't know if it was all brands, or just some) - apparently a combination of bad rust-proofing, and use of different metal alloys than the OEM parts, which caused problems with dissimilar metal corrosion....

Allegedly there was a big class-action lawsuit against the converters, with lots of money for the lawyers, a little for the owners, and the conversion companies supposedly improved their processes to get rid of the rust issues to at least some degree... However I don't know if the US process improvements made it over the pond or not....

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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby Burgerman » 20 Aug 2012, 13:27

There are many different conversions over here. Some companies are good, do an excellent job, some less so. But dare I say that European vehicles are finished and protected better in general than US ones. I have had a few US made cars and the build quality is to be polite a bit cheap and cheerfulin comparison. They work but are not things of quality.

Especially paint finish and where doors shut, under "hidden" edges, awful plastics and interiors, and reliability issues with both gearboxes and engines as well as electrics.

So re finishers tend to do a better job too.
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Re: Chrysler Grand Voyager problems

Postby dotyj » 21 Aug 2012, 04:14

Rust can be an issue.

I'm on my fourth van since 1979. My '75 Ford E-150 was rusting out all over the place when I retired it in 1996.

My two other full size Ford vans had some minor rust but not where the conversions were.

My 1986 Dodge Caravan has some light rust where paint has started peeling off the converted section of flooring and the paint on the hood and leading edge of the roof needs restoring but is otherwise fine.

I have seen seriously rusted conversion vans though. Scary.
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