Battery article on Spinlife

[sheureka]

With the discussion on wet vs dry cell batteries, I'd like some feedback on this article from Spinlife.com -

http://www.spinlife.com/spintips/details/k/Power%20Wheelchair%20Batteries/a/121/c/4

Thanks! - sheureka

[Burgerman]

Spinlife seems dead?

Quite likely its wrong. Most "experts" dont have a lot of idea about batteries or charging.

Will read it with interest if the site works again!

[JoeC]

The spinlife article works for me.

In my opinion, wet cell batteries shouldn't even be a part of the conversation for powerchairs any longer.

The main erroneous points I see in this article is that they assume that a powerchair draws 10 amps, and they say that a 90 AH battery would run a powerchair for 10 hours continuously.

They do make a lot of correct points about wet batteries being more dangerous, less convenient, and not approved for transport, and they do mention that other battery technologies are on the horizon. However, I think that spending so much of the article comparing the batteries we were using 20+ years ago with the ones we should have stopped using 5+ years ago is largely wasted space. If we're stuck with lead batteries, we should at least try to get the most out of them, and understand that they have hardly anything at all in common with the battery that starts our cars.

[Burgerman]

Well I cant read it. Not working. But a good high end powerchair can want 240 amps. And non of the wet batteries, even starter only ones, can do this without big voltage drops. You understand all this from your soccer chairs. Mostly because they are cheap budget options for cars, or true deep cycle and were never intended for big pulse currents we need.

The group 24 sized 100Ah elecsol batteries with claimed 1000 cycles and plenty of Ah are cheap, and LOOK a good idea if you dont understand batteries. In reality they are useless and cant get me to the pub or up that stupidly steep ramp. Also steering is vague, and no wheelies. Voltage colapses and it wont steer at all on the ramp. So ignoring the acid, top ups, spilliage, or gasses given off when charging issues they are still useless...

[Burgerman]

The main erroneous points I see in this article is that they assume that a powerchair draws 10 amps, and they say that a 90 AH battery would run a powerchair for 10 hours continuously.

Without peukert, and if a powerchair did take 10Amps instead of an intermittent 200A to 0A all day long in heavy pulses they would still be wrong because you can only get about half the power out of a lead battery before its resistance goes so high its almost undrivable and it feels dead...

And you can only use around 50 percent of its capacity anyway or get 9 months use before replacement.

Site still not working here.

[ex-Gooserider]

Worked for me - it may be a location thing since Spinlife is (AFAIK) primarily a US marketer. I didn't think the article was very useful as it had little real info content, and seemed to be promoting the use of wet-cell batteries....

There was NO mention of AGM batteries as opposed to gels. They also made no distinction about the different Lithium chemistries and which ones one might want to be sitting on.

They also mentioned Nickel-Metal Hydride batteries (in connection with a manual chair asssist rim) with the implication that they are the latest thing...

ex-Gooserider

[woodygb]

http://surf.hitfake.eu/hit.php/tPKTcMzJ ... 2/fnorefer

[Burgerman]

That works...

Reasonably good in a dumbed down generic sort of way.

But as usual some incorrect info esp on charging!

Corrected version as it should be written here!
www.wheelchairdriver.com/corrected.doc

[sheureka]

Here is my specific question after having read the article -

I have a big 4-wheel scooter (Pride Hurricane) that I bought new about 10 years ago. It can only be used outside (I think my car has a smaller turning radius). I used to take it birdwatching and fishing, but I haven't done that in a while. Meanwhile it just sits there. I'd like to start "hiking" again but the scooter obviously needs new batteries and I don't want to put much money into it. Would sealed wetcell batteries work for this? That would certainly be a lot cheaper. The scooter only has onboard charging (a "computer cord" connection). Would I need a different charger? If so, what would I need? Would the cost of a different charger totally offset the difference in battery cost, given that I wouldn't be using the scooter much?

Thanks so much for any guidance - Sherry

[Burgerman]

Would wet batteries work? Yes.

Problem is that there are very few decent ones nowadays, they belong to yesteryear. At least in Europe.

You can get true deep cycle wet batteries quite cheaply. But while they appear to offer good value, most are cheap and cheerful... Some are sealed, maintainance free, and these are a better bet in a scooter. Some are wet as in not sealed so may need periodic topping up. But most are either leisure, meaning they claim 350 cycles (instead of 450 to 500) and only at a 50 percent discharge compared to 80 for true traction batteries.

While you CAN find true deep cycle wet batteries (Such as the Elecsol brand) that offer more Ah in the same sized case, they will not give the same power (torque) or as much range, as you expect.

The charger for relatively small sealed lead acid is much the same as the generic AGM charger. So depending on what the charger that you have on your scooter actually does, it should charge the Wet batteries fine. Because most want a 14.4v CV stage and a 13.6v float - same as AGM. You CAN charge these with less controlled chargers, or with more volts but this means much more water usage.

[Burgerman]

http://www.tayna.co.uk/ELECSOL-100-Carb ... P5579.html

Here you go. On the face of it its a bargain. Typical wet acid true deep cycle battery. Great for solar storage etc. At low input and output amps.

I tested a set of these in my chair. Because at under half the price of quality sealed batteries, with 1000 claimed 50 percent cycles, (should do 500 at 80) and with 100Ah compared to 68 or 73 (odyssey/MK gel) they LOOK great! To those that dont understand batteries well.

They give less range than the MKs or Odyssey batteries in spite of being bigger. Couldnt make the amps needed for wheelies or the steep ramp into the bar im my local even when new and fully charged. I sent them back after a few days since they were truly crap!

In a scooter you may get away with it. But in a powerchair they dont cut it.

These group 24 Elecsol wet batteries are 100Ah. They can do 450 amps maximum starting current (CA).
The smaller Odyssey is 68Ah for eg but can do 1500+ Amps starting (CA) - (Thats why its called a PC1500)
To start the same car then, (or wheelie the same powerchair) you would need SIX Elecsol batteries!
To deliver the same amps at the same voltage under load that a pair of Odyssey batteries can with just 68Ah.

Old page here from about 8 years back... It says range is better on that page. But it didnt actually turn out to be better. Or as good - when tested later on. As I keep trying to tell people, theres more to batteries than Ah.

If you have a 1,000,000Ah but it cant make enough amps to power the chair its not much use!

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/my-batteries.htm

[Burgerman]

http://www.tayna.co.uk/Leisure-Battery- ... P7713.html

This is about 40 uk pounds. 85Ah. Wet. Leisure battery. It will give a similar performance to MK gel, for about 5 to 7 weeks. Then will be ready to throw away. With batteries you really do get what you pay for.

These are almost the same as the ones on the page I tested the elecsols. Only there they were marked Halfords DEEP CYCLE. I got 3 weeks of good performance. Then 3 where I dare not go far...

[Burgerman]

As you can see that article is simplistic and unrealistic and confused when you look at what is actually on the market to buy.

[sheureka]

I might use the scooter once every 3 months - that's all. Generally when we go out I take my chair and my friends go off and hike while I sit and birdwatch. That would be okay with the scooter - and I'd be able to go a little farther off the beaten track with it. BUT then we go out and have dinner and a drink somewhere. That might work in the summer with outdoor tables (though even then I'm like a bull in a china shop on that thing), but at this time of year I could only do takeout! No way that's happening.

And thanks for you advice!

[Burgerman]

In that case the biggest elecsol or other wet deep cycle battery (whatever is cheapest) will work ok (ish) for you with 2 provisos.

1. That you dont expect too much torque, (power) at least from the elecsols, but any wet cell cheap caravan or leisure battery will work as well.
2. That you get a 24v charger that definitely has a float stage (a 3 stage charger) and you leave it connected when not using it.

You will get at best say 150 cycles out of the cheap leisure batteries or unknown but more amount of cycles from Elecsols.

[Sully]

I was informed that this article was written 10 or more years ago, those things mentioned were truths back then. Huge advances in batteries ave been made since this article was written. But the written word today is available to everyone almost anywhere because of this technology, and if you write something on the I-net it lasts forever, right or wrong !!!

[Burgerman]

Yes. And most of the suitable sized wet batteries that would have worked are gone. Now just cheap junk with low cycle life or high resistance large backup batteries mostly. May be different in the US. Many old things still happen there!

[ex-Gooserider]

This is why I like to put dates on anything I write that goes online - and I wish it was a part of the Internet standards

I haven't looked at all recently, but if I wanted a wet cell battery for a chair / scooter, I'd probably look at what's available in the marine world. At least in the US, we have a big freshwater sportfishing industry, particularly the guys that go after bass. The standard "bass-boat" has a big outboard to get you from the launching ramp to the fishing areas, but then relies on an electric motor to sneak up on the spots they hope the fish are hiding in... This is a fairly high current draw, deep cycle type demand, not all that different from a chair...

If I wanted a good wet cell battery for a chair, I'd probably look for a bass-fishing forum and see what the users there were putting in their boats...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Biggest problem I see is this.

Gel or stock cheap AGMs cant keep up with the demands of 120 amp (240 amp) hi end systems in 8 or 8.5 mph powerchairs as it stands. The PURE LEAD AGMs (high quality starter AND deep cycle) batteries such as the Odyssey (and rebranded) ones are just about capable when fresh.

So you will need to find wet batteries that have 400 or more 80% cycle capability, as well as internal resistance of 2.5mOhm or less. And there are non I can find...

Remember that 3mOhm is noticibly worse under load. The typical 70Ah gel is 4.5mOhm and crappy for power becaused of that.

So while you may get away using these cheap wet cell batteries in gutless low amp chairs, or chairs that are programmed to suit my grandma, they will never work for sport, or for people like me. The quality of wet cell batteries (up to group 24) is low, because they are budget. This means finding quality ones wont be easy. And if you do, they wont be cheaper. BIG ones are common, used for static power storage over many years as standby systems or telecom.

Theres a challenge for you all. Find a low resistance group 24 battery, with 400+ cycles, and 1500CCA like the Odyssey...

[sheureka]

Better watch it with those "grandma" remarks -

[Burgerman]

Seriously, if you are a grandma, or even an average chair user, the volt drop of most batteries under heavy loads, will never bother you. You will never "feel" it or be affected by it.

Its only going to be noticible by people playing sport, off road use etc. And only then by those with chairs programmed to go, stop, turn when you choose like a computer mouse. Everyone else will never be any wiser.

It bothers me a lot. Because the completely linear joystick control, becomes "stretchy" or vague. It means I start fitting things or not being inch perfect. The chair when used AGRESSIVELY doesent go EXACTLY where I expected it to. That could break my feet, smash a hand on a door frame, or fail to lift front wheels predictably and land me in the road when wheeliing up a curb. Not good enough.

[Neal]

BM, I agree there will be users who will not experience any effect whatsoever. I know I can easily take any guts there might be in a group 24/70 Ah gel battery out in an hour or so just doing cleaning or other activities in my home where I will be moving continuously from one spot to another spot, stopping, turning, etc. even setting for a bit the recovery still leaves the battery Without any pep so if I go anywhere the chair will be doing more about crawl then having any speed when I may really require it to get across us busy street or try to hurry through some nasty weather.

there is no reason we should not be able to have mobility equipment that serves you for a full day, especially since part of the provision of this equipment for the disabled such as myself, is to have the necessary medical care to be able to work and other activities that are necessary to a person's survival!

Neal

[Burgerman]

there is no reason we should not be able to have mobility equipment that serves you for a full day, especially since part of the provision of this equipment for the disabled such as myself, is to have the necessary medical care to be able to work and other activities that are necessary to a person's survival!

Except for the fact that the best brand new lead based batteries there is - which happen to be Odyssey and cost a fortune - are crap. So the choice with lead is:

Wet - Cheap (er) Difficult to find good ones, most are very cheaply made with many disadvantages like explosion, leak, needs topping up, not great performance.
Gel - Expensive but good cycle life if charged correctly - most are not - and mediocre performance.
AGM - also available in cheap and cheerful with crap life, or decent quality to rival gel - faster charging and good ones last as long as gels because they get charged better.
PURE LEAD - like Odyssey - 400 real cycles, best for power or amps under load, much faster charge rates, but the most expensive.

Or lithium... Most of the rest of the world now use lithium for everything. Becaise its MASSIVELY CHEAPER long term, offeres much longer lifespans, better performance, greater reliability, better rangs, better under load, etc. IF charged, sized, and treated correctly with the correct C rate cells.

Its not for nothing you will find them in my mower, strimmer, wheelchair, several helis, and quadcopters, 2 radio control transmitters, kitchen appliances, drill, grinder, keyb and mouse, and also in my torch, my laptop, my phones, my portable soldering iron, my cameras and flash guns, my gopro, and my multi meter... And theres more. But also in full sized bikes, kids toys, cars, busses, motorcycles. I even have a one handed electric pepper grinder.

They last better. They dont care about being left discharged, or heavy amps. They are simply far superior in every possible way. And while they cost more (about double Ah per Ah, they last much, much, longer so are actually cheaper long term. IF IMPLEMENTED CORRECTLY.

[Neal]

I have been meaning to ask about this for a week or two after some discussion about batteries was going on but I have been a bit busy dealing with some other things. Now this seems like a good place to bring it up.

I saw that MK makes group 24 AGM batteries and wondered if they might perform better than the gel ones. I did some digging to find battery specs and think they might do somewhat better than gels but would still not be anywhere near the quality of the Odyssey PC 1500s. They cannot supply the same high current that the PC 1500 can but do somewhat better than the MK gels. I thought this might be helpful to some people as they will, at least until recently, pay for things like MK group 24 batteries so you could make the request and get the AGM variety fitted instead. I do not think you could get a provider to take the loss they would see providing Odyssey batteries.

In my digging I came across some other info that I thought would be relevant to bring up. MK batteries are made by the East Penn company out of Pennsylvania. This company also manufactures the Deka brand battery. One of their batteries are the Intimidator Marine battery line with wet cell, gel, and AGM batteries. When I looked at the specs for the gel and AGM types they are the same as for the MK batteries. It got me thinking that maybe they are the same battery but just have different labels. When I look for pricing the Deka Intimidator gels and AGM are significantly lower in price then the MK batteries. I am thinking that if I try to keep an old chair going that I would try a set of these and see how they perform. I also was going to check the next time I go to my local auto parts store I prefer to see what price they would give me for these batteries.

Do you think these really could be the same batteries? I also wonder if a produce the same battery for other companies under their labels, e.g. Marathon Oil company here in Michigan have battery lines and seeing some of the theirs they look like they could be East Penn batteries with a different label stuck on them. Anyway, this might be an option for people to meet the same quality need compared to the MK battery line.

Neal

[Burgerman]

I saw that MK makes group 24 AGM batteries and wondered if they might perform better than the gel ones. I did some digging to find battery specs and think they might do somewhat better than gels but would still not be anywhere near the quality of the Odyssey PC 1500s. They cannot supply the same high current that the PC 1500 can but do somewhat better than the MK gels. I thought this might be helpful to some people as they will, at least until recently, pay for things like MK group 24 batteries so you could make the request and get the AGM variety fitted instead. I do not think you could get a provider to take the loss they would see providing Odyssey batteries.

MK AGMs perform much like most AGMs that use calcium and low strength acid. They have high resistance. They perform about the same as the gel battery. And they have a much shoirter service life. In average use most users wouldnt know the difference but the service life is reflected in the cost. But this just means more battery swaps, more batteries to buy. Net result is that the gel probably works out cheaper long term, exp if you are a heavy user.

One reason the gels "last" longer - if charged correctly - is that the active plate materieal doesent get used up so fast, and the plates are not so fully covered in Lead Sulphate at the end of discharge. This is a plus in one way and a minus in another. The "technology" to do this, and for the chemistry, was invented by Sonenschien, and licenced for MK. Basicall as you discharge a Lead battery the ACID is used up and coats the plates (in Lead Sulphate). But the acid is part of the circuit through the battery. If its ALL used up, then the battery goes VERY high resistance. Meaning that before the battery is technically dead, it no longer has the power to drive a chair. So it feels flat long before it is. This means the user does not fully deplete the battery so it lives longer. But it means that the already high resistance battery gets a lot worse during the day...

In my digging I came across some other info that I thought would be relevant to bring up. MK batteries are made by the East Penn company out of Pennsylvania. This company also manufactures the Deka brand battery. One of their batteries are the Intimidator Marine battery line with wet cell, gel, and AGM batteries. When I looked at the specs for the gel and AGM types they are the same as for the MK batteries. It got me thinking that maybe they are the same battery but just have different labels. When I look for pricing the Deka Intimidator gels and AGM are significantly lower in price then the MK batteries. I am thinking that if I try to keep an old chair going that I would try a set of these and see how they perform. I also was going to check the next time I go to my local auto parts store I prefer to see what price they would give me for these batteries.

Its possible. Link?

Do you think these really could be the same batteries? I also wonder if a produce the same battery for other companies under their labels, e.g. Marathon Oil company here in Michigan have battery lines and seeing some of the theirs they look like they could be East Penn batteries with a different label stuck on them. Anyway, this might be an option for people to meet the same quality need compared to the MK battery line.

Neal

Its quite likely. EG the DieHard, and a few others are the same battery as the Odyssey. At least as far as can be determined...

But take a tiny lead battery - any type/make - that is 1/2 inch thich, 1.5 inch wide and 5 inches long, and try and take hundreds of amps out of it!

Lithium is the way. Watch this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKRqaNPIBE

This is just a 45C cont 90C intermittent 3Ah battery. Exactly the same as the one in my quadcopter.

It replaced a 12v 75Ah battery in this vid!

[Sully]

As I said I use a pair of Wally World marine deep cell trolling batteries. When I bought them 2.5/3 years ago they were way cheaper than any other batteries in the 24/70 amp hr. $125@ I only use them for one purpose off road, and they have served me well.

I do not disagree that lithiums should be in every new chair, but until the charging issues are resolved that is plug and play. Granny or grandpa in most instances is not going to learn how to do this properly, when they go to bed most nights that is all they want to do (me too). And lithiums will be in the future.

Depending on your house layout having several places you can plug in is best, and one should be beside your bed. But most humans watch too much TV but that is also a place to put a charging sta.

Another consideration is say a guy like me, you tell me it will take 2000 charges. At 73 years old now why should I worry, about that's 5.5 years IF I run it every day until I have pretty much depleted the battery each day. Which isn't very likely.

[Burgerman]

Another consideration is say a guy like me, you tell me it will take 2000 charges. At 73 years old now why should I worry, about that's 5.5 years IF I run it every day until I have pretty much depleted the battery each day. Which isn't very likely.

Since a typical lithium will allow you to do around 3x the range if properly implemented, and they dont need to be topped up or fully charged. So if you charged once a week then that might be enough. Thats 52 charges a year. Or 36.4 years to be exact!

Or if you do charge daily, and so only use about 20 percent of the power, then you get one hell of a lot of charges. If you kept it between say 75 percent full and 75 percent discharged you would have 1.5x the range you have today every day. But maybe 10x the FULL/80% rate of 2000 cycles.

As for the charge "problem" it needent exist. You would as a manufacturer design a system/chair specific lithium system. It would be as simple as using your existing charger.

Like Lithium tools/bikes etc.

[Burgerman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGuHuSuHKc4

The above, when the cameraman catches up, is what a lithium and brushless motor combination can do. And contrary to the claim theres plenty that are faster.

This is normal at our club field. Try this with lead. It wouldnt take off. It certainly couldnt do that! Lithium battery powered planes have been faster than nitro burning stuff for 10 years.

Its barely even worth discussing lead any longer. Never mind retrograde wet lead bricks... The rest of the world has moved on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGuHuSuHKc4

[Burgerman]

Just think. If you dump the lead bricks, load up with LiPo batteries and use brushless motors your chair could climb from parked to 1000 feet in 4 seconds. Or go 200 mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub9EpgzN6XY

Tiny battery, Tiny motor, almost 200mph, 135 amps, 3.6kw and its a tiny foam toy.

Makes you look at lead bricks and huge heavy brushed motors we use in a different light.

[Neal]

In my digging I came across some other info that I thought would be relevant to bring up. MK batteries are made by the East Penn company out of Pennsylvania. This company also manufactures the Deka brand battery. One of their batteries are the Intimidator Marine battery line with wet cell, gel, and AGM batteries. When I looked at the specs for the gel and AGM types they are the same as for the MK batteries. It got me thinking that maybe they are the same battery but just have different labels. When I look for pricing the Deka Intimidator gels and AGM are significantly lower in price then the MK batteries. I am thinking that if I try to keep an old chair going that I would try a set of these and see how they perform. I also was going to check the next time I go to my local auto parts store I prefer to see what price they would give me for these batteries.

Its possible. Link?

Sorry about not having the link, it's been a packed day for me so didn't have that ready....

Here's the link to Deka Marine Battery specs...

http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0194.pdf


Here's the link for Deka/ East Penn...

http://www.dekabatteries.com/default.aspx?pageid=4

Its quite likely. EG the DieHard, and a few others are the same battery as the Odyssey. At least as far as can be determined...

But take a tiny lead battery - any type/make - that is 1/2 inch thich, 1.5 inch wide and 5 inches long, and try and take hundreds of amps out of it!

Lithium is the way. Watch this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKRqaNPIBE

This is just a 45C cont 90C intermittent 3Ah battery. Exactly the same as the one in my quadcopter.

It replaced a 12v 75Ah battery in this vid!

I've seen that before and it's amazing the power they have.
I agree that lithium is better/cheaper in the long run than lead but still problematic for most on the maintaining them properly. I am making the switch to lithium for my primary chairs, but the upfront cost is challenging and many will struggle with this unless the industry would wise up. And that not goig to happen soon with some of the "wise" people makingf policy decisions here.

Neal