Permobil C300 will not move

[bitstream]

Hi guys having a bit of a issue diagnosing the problem with a chair not moving. Chair is a Permobil C300 with the Pilot+ control system.

The chair batteries are good and charged, disengage bar is in to engage motors, disengage switch has been checked with continuity to open and close, power button comes on on joystick control, no errors are present, unit is not locked, mode button works and can select mode, all power seat functions work, but the chair will not move in any direction.

I know that the seat has lockouts which can cause this but have not been able to pinpoint a particular switch that is bad.

Seat works as follows:
The tilt backwards will not operate unless the seat elevator is in the full Down position.
Seat Elevator will not raise up if the seat is tilted backwards.
once seat is tilted full forward, seat elevator will go full up and full down.
Back recline and leg extension will work at any point full in and out.

My thoughts are that the problem resides in either the Controller (80 Amp) or the Joystick control. All buttons work on joystick and if mode is selected, moving the stick left, right, up, or down will select a mode or confirm the mode set.

Is there any method to test the joystick or controller ?
Is there a way to bypass all lockout switches to test the joystick and controller ?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Richie

[rustyjames]

Did you try unplugging/reconnecting the Redel cable? Pilot Plus systems are pretty much trouble free from my experience. Spare parts are usually easily obtained on ebay, at very reasonable prices.

[Burgerman]

Very unlikely to be a power module or joystick fault. There's a mountain of self checking and error light etc. Same with wiring.

So most likely a seating switch, charge inhibit, or programming issue.

[bitstream]

Thanks guys for taking a minute to respond.

rustyjames, yes tried unpluging the cable and reconnecting on both ends. Same results.

Burgerman, yea I am not getting any error lights on the joystick console. Is there a seat switch on each stage of motion? I know there is one on elevator, tilt, and motor disable. If jump across terminals on the switches will this bypass switch control assuming they are normally open.
Could you explain what you mean by Charge Inhibit?

As far as I know the chair has never been reprogrammed other than when new. Is it common for program perameters to change?

Thanks again,

[rustyjames]

I'm pretty green at wheelchair repair and just throwing this out there, but if you were to unplug the ALM from the controller, wouldn't that essentially bypass all the limit switches and allow the chair to move? That is assuming the pod/cable/controller/motors are good.

[bitstream]

There is a tilt degree switch mounted on the seat back. What should this read in the seat back forward state? Open, closed, a resistance ?

Also does anyone have a wiring diagram for this unit?

Thanks,

[rustyjames]

Check out this thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4701&p=63237&hilit=ALM#p63237

[bitstream]

rustyjames, thanks for that link. That may help.

I appreciate it.

[rustyjames]

No problem, enjoy, hope it helps.

[LROBBINS]

Here's a manual for the current C3G seat - with R-NET controller. I haven't found one for the Pilot+, but haven't hit the web to look. With the R-Net Permobil uses its own ICS module for actuator control, and my recollection is that they did with earlier controllers as well. There are cabling layouts on pp. 44 and 45.
http://www.permobilus.com/manuals/75.pdf
The C300 base is covered in another service manual: http://www.permobilus.com/manuals/30.pdf and the ICS is covered in there.
I also notice that it's possible to "lock" the chair so it can't be driven and that locking and unlocking instructions are in the owner's manual (again, this manual has VR2 and R-net, not Pilot+): http://www.permobilus.com/manuals/29.pdf
Ciao,
Lenny

[bitstream]

LRobbins Thanks for the reply.

The manual states "the maximum speed indicator will ripple up and down when the wheelchair is locked."

Since I do not notice any rippling effect on the speed indicator of the joystick control, I do not believe the unit is locked. Has anyone experienced a locked chair with no visual effect of the controller ? I do not have the security key for the chair or I would try the unlock sequence just in case.

Thanks for the links as well.

[LROBBINS]

The manual states "the maximum speed indicator will ripple up and down when the wheelchair is locked."

Remember that the manuals I linked are NOT for the Pilot+. What does your owner's manual say? In any case, if the unlocking procedure is the same it's simple enough that you might give it a try anyway.
Ciao,
Lenny

[woodygb]

http://countries.permobil.com/Documenta ... K_C300.pdf


page 37 ....

[LROBBINS]

Thanks Woody, that not only includes the Pilot+ troubleshooting guide, but pretty complete pictorial and schematic wiring diagrams. Ciao, Lenny

[Burgerman]

>>.Has anyone experienced a locked chair with no visual effect of the controller ?

No. Somewhere there is an inhibit switch error/fault or programming error 99% certain.

[bitstream]

Lenny, that reference regarding the chair lock was taken from the C300 Pilot+ owners manual. Thanks for all the references and links.

Woody, I appreciate that link. Much appreciated.

Burgerman, thanks for all the info and pointers. I believe you are probably correct.

Thanks guys for all the help, references, and links. I greatly appreciate it.

Richie

[bitstream]

Woody,

Looking through the post on the DIY programming cable there are references to a few different cables to use as a basis to build the programming cable. The Kenwood cable and the FT232RL USB to Serial cable. Which do you recommend as the best option?

Thanks,
Richie

[rlnguy]

P+ C300 has been out of production for several years so I'm going from memory a bit.
Speed and and drive inhibits are handled by a circuit board called SLS. There are speed limits based on seat position but nothing on the seat position should prevent driving entirely.
I don't hate access to all my resources so I can't tell you much more, but if you're in the US, I'd suggest just calling Permobil tech support.
They're pretty easy going and willing to talk to users anytime.
Good luck

[woodygb]

Woody,

Looking through the post on the DIY programming cable there are references to a few different cables to use as a basis to build the programming cable. The Kenwood cable and the FT232RL USB to Serial cable. Which do you recommend as the best option?

Thanks,
Richie

There are so many Radio programming cable variants about ..A Kenwood cable is just one of many that often work.

I now use this Chinese version of a FTDI lead .....

FT232RL USB to Serial cable

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6pin-FTDI-FT2 ... 485c154461

[ex-Gooserider]

If your Pilot+ is like the ones I've seen, you should have TWO modules under the seat, or wherever they are on that chair. One is the main control module that has the heavy wires from the batteries and to the drive motors.

Then there is a second "ALM" module for all the actuators, lights, and other such stuff. This second module is connected to the main module by a Redel cable to one of the two jacks on the main module (which are interchangeable, it doesn't matter which cable goes to which jack) with the Joystick module going to the other.

On my Redman chair, unplugging the ALM module cable gets rid of ALL the extra wiring for everything but the batteries and the drive motors and joystick - if the chair moves after unplugging the ALM module, then that will at least have helped locate the problem.

ex-Gooserider

[bitstream]

ex-Gooserider,
Thanks for the information. Just to clarify, your chair has the Pilot + system on it as well and unplugging the redel cable from the power controller to the ALM seat controller will still allow the chair to move as normal?

Does your chair have a Brake disengage switch connected to the ALM ?

I did try unplugging the redel that connects the power module to the ALM or SLS (as is noted in the Permobil schematics) and the chair will still not move. Get same results with the redel plugged in or unplugged. On my chair the Brake release switch is connected to the SLS module. Not sure if the power module would need a signal from this switch to operate correctly or not.

Thanks.

[bitstream]

Wanted to post a followup on the trouble that was found with the C300 chair.

First I want to thank all of you that posted suggestions, comments, schematics, links, software, etc. I greatly appreciate your help and efforts.

The problem found was the Extra Low Speed Inhibit. I did not find any issue with the actual switch located on the seat elevator. Looking at the inhibits in the program I noticed the Extra Low Speed Inhibit was set to 100. I changed this to 0, uploaded the new parameters and the chair was working as expected. I also changed the steering parameters turn acceleration / deceleration / etc as suggested by Burgerman on the site. The changes made a noticable difference in the steering for the better. Also played with some of the other parameters to get a feel of the options available.

One of the problems I ran into was with the programming cable. I ordered a Arduino FT232 USB to TTL cable off of ebay. Link here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/161181323524?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
I would not suggest ordering from this supplier.

Once I received the cable and connected it to my pc, tried Windows XP and Windows 7, I could not get the machine to recognize the adapter, install drivers, or setup the virtual com port. I contacted FTDI and asked for suggestions on setting up the drivers for the device. FTDI suggested that I use USBView, a program that be downloaded from there site, to pull the output of the FT232 chip on the adapter cable and send a copy to them. There main concern was the Venderid (VID) and Productid (PID) assigned to the chip. FTDI responded that the chip on the cable/adapter was a non-Genuine, fake, or custom configured chip that would not work with the certified default drivers found on there site. Also note that the supplier did not provide any drivers nor have any knowledge of drivers needed. The problem with the FT232 chip that I had was the PID was set to 0x0000. FTDI commented the current PID setting of the FT232 chip was not a valid PID for chips they release to work with default drivers.

Through further digging I found that FTDI does have a program that will allow you to alter there drivers or create your own custom driver to work with custom PIDs assigned to FT232 chip. Below is the process used to create two custom driver inf files that would communicate with the FT232 chip with a PID set to 0x0000.
FTDI provides a program ( FT_INF ) which is able to config their driver to work with custom PIDs ,
The program can be downloaded from this link http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Utilities/FT_INF_v2.0.61.242_Installer.exe
Then you will need an old FTDI driver like this: (NOTE: I was told that the newer drivers can detect a non-genuine (fake) chip and may not work. )
32bit: http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/CDM/CDM%202.08.30%20WHQL%20Certified.zip
64bit: http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/CDM/CDM%202.08.30%20WHQL%20Certified.zip

Next run the FT_INF, set chip type to FT232/245R and PID to 0000 (or whatever PID value USBView output from your chip / cable), then extract above zip,
in Time Stamp/Filename, select ftdibus and ftdiport, then using this >> to add your prefer config to right menu.
Next click Generate files.
2 new inf files will be generated. Copy the 2 files to the folder where you extracted the ziped files, and overwrite them.
Then manually point windows to your new driver.

I used this procedure with Windows XP and was able to get the OS to recognize the adapter, install drivers, and setup the virtual com port. The cable was then completed using XLR / Neutrix plug, 1N4148 diode, and 47K ohm resistor as described in Woody schematic here: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2111&start=640
Once the cable was completed and connected to the chair, the correct com port was selected in Mobility Programming software and the program stated Active Comm. At this point the program could be retrieved / read from the controller and new parameters written to the controller.

I thought the above might help other that may experience the same problems.

Thanks again to everyone,

Richie

[woodygb]

Interesting...
I've just had a look at one of my ebay cables using FT_PROG ...

This shows a FT232R Chip and the vid is 0403 & pid 6001.


I'd be interested in you using this program to write the correct vid and pid back to your lead.

[woodygb]

More info on the problem.

https://tomblanch.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/ftdi-woes/

The reprogramming by FT_PROG to the default VID & PID seems to be the simple solution.

[bitstream]

Woody,

Yes, looks like using FT_PROG is another solution that would work fine. FTDI stated that the PID should be 6001 for there default drivers to work correctly. I will try to write the PID 6001 back to my device and see how that works out.

I had not seen the article you posted but if I had found it before hand, I prob would have gone that direction. Looks simple and pretty straightforward.

I am sure I will use one of these type cables for future projects. It is good to know what to look for in means of connectivity problem.