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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Burgerman » 18 Jun 2015, 17:12

The chain? NOT RELEVANT.
It doesent change anything but gear ratio.

The only affect it has is added losses. And a change in gear ratio depending on the number of teeth. Lower gearing, slower, more torque. Taller gearing, faster, less torque.

It has EXACTLY the same affect as a wheelchair motors gearbox. You are not gaining anything by adding chains and sprockets.

you have used other motors except wheelchair?


A DC motor is exactly the same - it doesent care if its in a wheelchair, car, airoplane...
They all obey the exact same laws of physics. And power/torque is limited only by the battery, and controller once stall current exceeds that of the controller.

http://www.robotshop.com/blog/en/how-do ... tions-3657
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Vitolds » 18 Jun 2015, 17:41

This is our old dispute.
I invite you to to visit, so you could see it all yourself
in Russia in the summer well. in Moscow, a lot of beautiful of places
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Vitolds » 18 Jun 2015, 17:45

let's get back to the controller
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Williamclark77 » 18 Jun 2015, 17:47

I believe what he is trying to say is that he is using a chain and sprocket (star) instead of a gearbox to get the same shaft rpm (momentum after chain) as a standard wheelchair motor. Same as I did.

Vitolds, those motors should be more powerful than wheelchair motors AT MAX. However, without knowing the "line to line resistance" or "impedance" it is impossible to determine whether they will be usable.

A motor with 100x more max power than a wheelchair motor will feel weaker and perform worse if it has too high impedance. It will stall and then take off uncontrollably.
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Burgerman » 18 Jun 2015, 17:55

I am sure Russia in very nice! But you just don't understand the physics :(
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Vitolds » 18 Jun 2015, 17:59

is now I will give you a photo
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Burgerman » 18 Jun 2015, 18:04

No Load RPM:

This is how fast (angular velocity) the final output shaft will rotate assuming nothing is connected to it. If the motor has a gear down and the motor’s speed is not indicated separately, the no load rpm value is the shaft speed after the gear down. The motor’s RPM is proportional to the voltage input. “No Load” means the motor encounters no resistance whatsoever (no hub or wheel mounted to the end). Usually the No Load RPM provided is associated with the nominal voltage.

Power rating:

If a motor’s power is not listed, it can be approximated. Power is related to current (I) and voltage (V) by the equation P = I*V. Use the no load current and nominal voltage to approximate the motor’s power output. The motor’s maximum power (which should only be used for a short time) can be approximated using the stall current and nominal voltage (rather than maximum voltage).

Stall Torque:

This is the maximum torque* a motor can provide with the shaft no longer rotating. It is important to note that most motors will sustain irreparable damage if subjected to stall conditions for more than a few seconds. When choosing a motor, you should consider subjecting it to no more than ~1/4 to 1/3 the stall torque.

EDIT: In this case the limit on a powerchair is the maximum amps the controller will give you.

Stall Current:

This is the current the motor will draw under maximum torque* conditions. This value can be very high and should you not have a motor controller capable of providing this current, there is a good chance your electronics will fry as well. If neither the stall nor the nominal current are provided, try to use the motor’s power rating (in Watts) and the nominal voltage to estimate the current: Power [Watts] = Voltage [Volts] x Current [Amps]
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Vitolds » 18 Jun 2015, 18:06

it is 12 km / h - on the tracks!
1 star - 12
2 star - 34
for a person up to 70 kg

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Burgerman » 18 Jun 2015, 18:08

it is 12 km / h - on the tracks!
1 star - 12
2 star - 34
for a person up to 70 kg


??? What does it mean?

Half the speed = double the torque.
Max motor torque is max CONTROLLER amps...

It makes no difference what motor, or gearbox ration, or sprockets or chains you use.
Only the max controller Amps div by the km/h determines torque level.
I am not going to argue with you, as before, as you plainly don't understand the physics of what is happening!
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Vitolds » 18 Jun 2015, 18:12

Trask great resistance
Wheel easy and fun run
if to deliver the stars such as 12-12
the chair does not move with the caterpillar.
the stars 12 or 14 - 24-28 without tracks for the wheels to be a rocket!
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Burgerman » 18 Jun 2015, 18:14

Trask great resistance
Wheel easy and fun run
if to deliver the stars such as 12-12
the chair does not move with the caterpillar.
the stars 12 or 14 - 24-28 without tracks for the wheels to be a rocket!


Obviously. You just said that shorter gearing (slower speed) gives greater torque. Which we all know.
So what? (I think?)

The LIMIT of torque is always the feeble motor controller. That is a fixed level. And in your case only 60A max...

This gear ratio thing is not relevant to the roboteq thread. Start a new one...
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Vitolds » 18 Jun 2015, 18:17

I showed you a video as a rotates chair with the controller of the wheelchair. it is weaker than roboteq.
When the people did not believe that the earth is round and that she spins.
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Lord Chatterley » 18 Jun 2015, 18:18

Sorry to hear about your dog.

LC
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby woodygb » 18 Jun 2015, 18:18

Deleted
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Vitolds » 18 Jun 2015, 18:19

Come for a visit! :D
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Burgerman » 18 Jun 2015, 18:19

Thanks LC.
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Burgerman » 18 Jun 2015, 18:45

Come for a visit! :D


I would but too many problems...
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby LROBBINS » 19 Jun 2015, 12:27

Will,

Ouch. Glad nothing caught fire!

How do you have Roboteq stall detection set (page 84 in the user manual)? With your ultra-low impedance motors I think that's a critical bit of protection (and 12ga. wires won't help much). Set it for as low power and short time as you can without getting lots of false triggers -- it can certainly respond faster than you can.

I want to comment about something you mentioned elsewhere - the rocking motion you get that you blame on suspension + soft tires. I think there may be a contributing factor that you can deal with in the script. Please bear with me as this is going to get wordy.

The Apem joystick, at least the one John and I are using, has a rather stiff spring and next to zero frictional damping. For example, if you move the stick to end of travel and then pop your hand off as fast as possible, the stick will actually spring back quite a ways past center and will even oscillate several times back and forth cross center. This, by itself, will not actually affect driving as the motors can't respond that fast, but I noticed it because I had my tilt and lift set to actuate at 20% of throw and sometimes got reverse action.

But this lack of damping can affect driving in a different way. I had thought that this was a peculiarity of our situation - driving with an attendant joystick while walking alongside - but it may be affecting you too. Even with my hand as solidly resting on the pod as possible, there was some relative movement of my hand and the chair. With the soft tires, rubber-suspended walking beam for the rear casters (remember, Rachi's chair is FWD), and play in the seat-lift mechanism the chair, with its attached joystick, would start to rock fore and aft as you described - and walking alongside, this could really get amplified. The cure was to set up my Master program so that joystick readings are running-averaged before being sent to the Roboteq. As long as that averaging doesn't take too much time it is actually faster than the motors can accelerate, so has no effect on control feel, but it has entirely gotten rid of the seasickness. Even just averaging two readings makes a big difference, and I now have it making a running average of 10 readings. If I exaggerate and set it to 20, the chair will continue to move after releasing the stick, so that's too much. (That number is a user setting, not hard coded.) Because it's a running average, the chair starts to accelerate or decelerate as soon as you move the stick (it doesn't cause any delay in the loop), but it does a nice job of dampening unintended movement.

In my case the calculation is done in the Master CAN node before sending the message to the Roboteq. In your case, it would be added directly into the Roboteq script. It's only a few lines of code and easy enough to do, so let me know if you'd like to try it. If it turns out you don't like it, setting Damping to 1 would make it just like it is now. Ibid for you John.

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Burgerman » 19 Jun 2015, 14:31

Cant say I notice this and I am trying to detect it now!

The ACC/DEC set in the script is slower than the stick overshooting. So is doing the same thing? Or not?

I quite like the rock you get on the soft tyres. It sort of damps out even the movements you make sat at a desk! Stops the chairs arms/back feeling "hard" if you know what I mean. But theres less give in the turf tyres than the all terain anyway.
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Burgerman » 19 Jun 2015, 14:39

How do you have Roboteq stall detection set (page 84 in the user manual)?


There is fast, med, slow, and -

I chose - because I presumed it did nothing. I dont want that comming in if I am attempting to climb a curb/ramp and causeing me to fall out/crash! Its rather sudden and slams the brake on. Falling out at speed would be easy. It MAY detect high currents (easy on 45V to see 240A if the motor is stalled, so I rely on the current limiting (set to 135A at the moment for motor protection).
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby LROBBINS » 19 Jun 2015, 17:43

John,

Stall detection only applies to brushless or brushed motors equipped with some kind of rpm feedback. Setting it on your wouldn't do anything anyway because the controller has no way to know when RPM is zero (only when PWM is zero).

No, I don't expect that the strong bobble I get walking alongside the chair is something you'd get, just guessing that with his long throw front suspension and the terrain he travels on it may be more evident on Will's chair. With you sitting in the chair and with your hand solidly on the joystick a running-average of joystick position mightn't make any noticeable difference at all, but if I do add that for Will you might as well try it out (and set damping back to 1 if it doesn't do anything anyway).

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Burgerman » 19 Jun 2015, 18:54

Stall detection only applies to brushless or brushed motors equipped with some kind of rpm feedback. Setting it on your wouldn't do anything anyway because the controller has no way to know when RPM is zero (only when PWM is zero).


I was referring to short circuit (sudden overcurrent) protection. It kicks in if you have a very low impedance motor and rapid acceleration where current exceeds 150A suddenly. Thinks its a short... Maybe not what you were referring to.

Damping yes, I can try it!
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby LROBBINS » 19 Jun 2015, 19:40

No, stall detection is separate from short detection and applies only to brushless. If output is XXX but RPM stays 0 for YYY milliseconds (there are several choices of XXX and YYY) it shuts that motor until joystick is centered. Ciao, Lenny
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Williamclark77 » 19 Jun 2015, 19:45

I have the short circuit protection on slow. Even on medium I can trip it by applying hard back stick at speed or a very sharp turn at speed. Going into a coast when you need to dodge something or quickly stop could get ugly. I don't think I've ever tripped it on slow. I will double check it when I get a chance.

I believe I have the stall detection off or on the slowest setting for the same reason. I will check it also when I get a chance. The 8 gauge Roboteq motor wires were barely warm. Barely. They would've gotten hotter laying in the sun. The motors were too hot to hold your hand on long, but not as hot as I've gotten them many times before. I work this thing hard.

Lenny, I believe the averaging input figures would help. I am quite good with the joystick to have crap quad hands, but no, I'm not steady by any means. I can tell a big difference on flat hard ground with my hand braced vs in a position to be more reactive. I can't operate the stick like BM with my thumb tip. My joystick is also very stiff, which I prefer.

The chair is parked in a corner until my motors get done. They said it would be early to mid July. I'm stuck in my C350 for now and it's killing me. This keeping it turned off and having to limit my moving around or get stranded with dead batteries doesn't cut it. I took a new job in February (after 8 painful years dispatching and being over ambulances) programming cnc plasma cutters and waterjets (among other things) where I have to go check on materials and machines a lot. I can't do it like I need to. Not enough battery life.
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby LROBBINS » 19 Jun 2015, 21:31

Will,

Roboteq is quite adamant about not turning off stall protection - on page 84 the following is in bold:
Do not disable the stall protection
.

I'll take a look at the script within the next day or two to see what it will take to put the averaging code in. I may want to ask you to send me a copy of your current script to put it directly in there and not get any of the user settings confused by using mine (for one thing, I am using different pins in the DB25).

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Burgerman » 19 Jun 2015, 21:42

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... Script.txt

Heres mine (with dumbed down acc/dec) that is current if it helps.
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby LROBBINS » 20 Jun 2015, 19:35

Will,

Could you send me a copy of your current script (post, e-mail, PM or html as John just did)? The additions needed for doing a running average of the joystick position are indeed very simple, but my version of the non-CAN script has been re-worded (mostly just variables renamed and some sub-routines re-arranged) to be more readable and more like the CAN version (for example, instead of C1 and C2, mine now uses Throttle and Steering). What I'd do in that version might not match how thing should be written in yours or John's and I'd like to get all of ours re-aligned as it will make maintenance easier later on.

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Williamclark77 » 20 Jun 2015, 20:12

Sorry, I had no internet service at home last night. The perks of living in the country.

I checked. My stall detection was 1s at 50% power. They were probably turning, albeit slowly. The factory motor wiring was simply too inadequate, even shortened to flush with the case. I'm going to implement temperature sensors at some point.

Remove the .zip. This is the last version I've been using with my accel pot addition.

At the time I was doing this, but in it instead of remote.

http://www.willsjunk.com/Other/WillChai ... -R6SC5gW/A
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Will Script 4-11-15.mbs.zip
(34.41 KiB) Downloaded 230 times
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jun 2015, 20:29

Whilst thats extremely impressive, and shows the power and advantages of both your chair and RC use, its still going to need a bit of work before its ready for cricket...

http://www.stedwardsoxford.org/wp-conte ... ricket.jpg
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Re: Some thinking and questions about Roboteq

Postby rollingcowboy » 21 Jun 2015, 06:20

Will, those mowing videos you have done make me laugh.
I imagine the current suppliers exec's getting angry that you are so far ahead of them in performance - it is silly - and disgusting.
Especially with the current 'news' of the cheap batteries they have decided to supply in their chairs.
You must give them bad dreams - :lol:
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