Battery ADD on pack - First Attempt -

[expresso]

Keep in mind - the Mileage will vary - sometimes alot - those miles i get - are when i ride its mostly flat - not many curbs up and down etc, - around the other edges of the city - - i run into a few big hills - both ways - which kills them

but for most part i know my limit now - but when i ride in the city blocks - sidewalks - up an down curbs - etc, - stop and go alot - etc, - my mileage is not the same - its much lower when i use it that way - as oppose to mostly flat straight -

when i say 15 to 17 at times - thats how i get it - or else its more about 12 for sure -

now my friend has the invacare with the GB motors - she does ALOT better than i do with battery life in between charging - i am dead and her chair is still fine - so depends on Chair - MK Gel 24 New batteries - etc,

on a new pair of PC1500 - i did a good run close to 15 and felt good - i notice its not the same now - but still good considering

[Burgerman]

i am dead and her chair is still fine - so depends on Chair

It depends on a few things, but not often the chair.

Her chair is brushless. Motors are therefore a lot more efficient. You go further per Ah.

Also depends on:
-all up weight.
-tyre pressures and type (flat free are worse)
-temp (colder days are worse)
-chairs c of g (technically centre of mass) position as it affects how much power gets wasted steering quite severely.
-the chairs top speed. Faster chairs use proportionally more battery power at EVERY speed, especially at low speeds.

[expresso]

yes all of it is true - and i fall into the worse group -

Tires are flat free - Not Air - my motors are both 8.5 - i am not a heavy person - 160 lbs - my chair p222se has lilt only - its fairly light compared to others - its nimble - COG is nice - wheelies easy up front -

the other chair is 646se - but much heavier i feel - seat elevator - tilt - a little bigger chair overall and heavier - still feels great and the ride is very welcoming - the shocks etc, - feels great over the bumps - compared to the p222se - thats a rock and i feel everything - on flat smooth ground - its very nice also of course

i feel i can get a bit more out of the p222se - if done right and smooth riding etc, - but because it wheelies easier - i waste more battery that way - as compared to other chair which doesnt wheelie - i can up curbs - but not from a stand still unless i program it for that - then its just too sensitive -

its just as fast 8.5 - and smoother - softer ride - its a much needed chair - p222se is more of a hot rod quarter mile chair - fast strong - hard as a rock - - i love them both - and the ADD on will go on the P222se chair first -

i may try it on the 646se also - back and forth - depends how i feel - and how far i plan to ride that day - but i plan on the P222se with the ADD on - will use my phone with GPS to tell me the distance in miles when i do it -

the 646se tells me on the joystick which i like - and each and everytime i use that chair - its 99% about 8 to 9 miles before i loose all greens - and i notice that all the time - same ball park figure - i am still good and i have hit 16 miles with that chair - 12 for sure easy - again depends where you ride -

[terry2]

Thanks guys
I will be keeping an eye on this thread. @expresso can you take pictures when it's finished please.

[expresso]

Thanks guys
I will be keeping an eye on this thread. @expresso can you take pictures when it's finished please.

Yes i will - i want to take pictures all along the way - i know how important pictures are - for some of us who need a little extra help in understanding - Pictures work wonders - i am one who likes to see pictures along with explaining etc, - i dont know this stuff off the top of my head - that would be BM - and a few others i am sure on here -

i think alot of users can do very well and may only need or want a ADD ON Pack - rather than the whole chair - many reasons - thats up to each users - what there needs are - etc, -

i keep you posted here soon as i get the rest of my order - parts - in - hopefully in a few weeks i should have - but never know - everything i am waiting for is still in HK -

[Burgerman]

I ordered 4 of 10Ah cells from evassemble.com in china about a day or two before xmas for another non wheelchair project. They are now sat on my bench. I have no idea why yours should take so long. They ship really fast and are normally here in about 7 days or so. Even over xmas! It may take longer to the US? But I am also a long way from china.

I now have one 12V battery completed, with 40 cells. Started the other one about 1 hour ago. That's all data-logged and measured so I can build groups of 10 with the same combined self discharge rates as all the other groups of 10...

They vary quite a lot. From a -5 mAh to 122 mAh... (the minus 5 is because they were re-charged to a lower termination point the 2nd time. That's a spread overall of 127mAh between cells. Which is why its important to measure them all and build a carefully selected pack.

[expresso]

I dont know what the issue is - they told me its new rules in 2016 - for some reason which i cant seem to find out excatly - the first 8 arrived ok - then i ordered another 8 - wasnt thinking - and i am waiting on those 8 - DHL - the shipper -

either it wasnt packed correctly for shipping - what ever the case - it was returned to the shipper - - so now they have to fix what ever it was the issue and reship -

hopefully this week - which means i wont get them till Mid. Jan. if they ship this week -

then i wait for the BMS to arrive also -

[Burgerman]

You don't need that. Doesn't do anything useful anyway. Just a lot of things you don't want or need.

Just plug into a hobby charger, charge, and test it out! Test the 8 you have. That will give another 12Ah as it is.

[expresso]

i want to try it - the BMS is on the way to me - i dont have a hobby charger etc, - that was the whole reason i went with BMS at first to try - i wasnt looking to get into it too much -

just a test to see how i like it - more or less - since then i understand more about BMS -

the only way i get a hobby charger etc, all the other stuff is - if the BMS dosnt work out for some reason down the line - and if i decide to do the whole chair -
that will depend how good the ADD on is to begin with -

i may be happy enough with it as is - or i may want a larger pack -

as of now - i am moving forward as i planned with the BMS that shirley sent me - i give it a shot - worse case - i get the hobby charger and start that way -

i want to be positive about this - and will be back to ask for help once i start Support me BM even if it proves me wrong -

[Burgerman]

Remember that.

When you assemble these cells and bus bars, they are live. You cant turn off a cell. Each one can produce hundreds or thousands of amps if shorted out. So you need to do the following to be safe.

1. Work carefully, because a dropped tool or bus bar (connector part with 2 holes in it) can short out cells. Much heat and sparks will be produced.
2. Wear eye glasses and rubber gloves, and be careful! You cant get a shock, volts too low. But you can be burned.
3. Be aware! Don't try and join the wrong terminals!!!

[expresso]

I will do just that - getting me worried now

i will follow this setup - the top first and then connect the bottom as in this picture - just to be sure - on the bottom part - i will do as in this picture - i would only have to do one side on the bottom like in the picture - Not both rolls of cells

if i am correct ?

[Burgerman]

i will follow this setup - the top first and then connect the bottom as in this picture - just to be sure - on the bottom part - i will do as in this picture - i would only have to do one side on the bottom like in the picture - Not both rolls of cells

if i am correct ?

This was my point a lot of posts back. You NEED to be correct, and know you ARE correct and know why you are correct rather than trying to follow someone else's photos... And making an expensive mistake.

i would only have to do one side on the bottom like in the picture - Not both rolls of cells

Of course you must do both rows, top and bottom! A cell cannot do ANYTHING with one end only connected!

This is exactly why I asked you to study those simple hobby battery interactive pages designed to teach amateur hobby guys the same thing. http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/lipo.html Seriously start with ONE cell and study it. Then 2 in series. Then 2 in parallel. Till it CLICKS!!!

[expresso]

Yes i understand that - this is why i posted the picture - to be 100% safe - even if dont get it fully - i rather do it safely as i learn more and understand - i am not looking to do trail and error now -

So if the picture is correct just as it is ? then thats how i will do it - i know i need to know why its correct that way - i have an idea but i am not sure 100% - and i have no one here that knows it either - so its me and your help

From What i can see - and tell - the first Two pos. flows to the next set of cells Neg. and over again the next cells Pos. etc, till the end which is Neg. - if this Pic is Correct just as it is - i will do it that way - but again i am not an expert -

i get confused when i see many cells etc, - and like you said - i dont want to connect the wrong way -

at first i visioned - two rolls of cells - one roll of Pos. and another roll of Neg side by side - each roll connected in Parall - thats simple to do right - ok - now - once thats done - to make it 24volt in series is where i am not sure how

i understand - the neg. of one roll and pos of the other roll - would do that and make it 24 volts - i get it - but dont see how i use the bus bars to achieve that - -

So instead of guessing how to do it - if this picture is Correct - i can just follow it for now and know thats its going to be Safe and correct -

[expresso]

i will follow this setup - the top first and then connect the bottom as in this picture - just to be sure - on the bottom part - i will do as in this picture - i would only have to do one side on the bottom like in the picture - Not both rolls of cells

if i am correct ?

This was my point a lot of posts back. You NEED to be correct, and know you ARE correct and know why you are correct rather than trying to follow someone else's photos... And making an expensive mistake.

i would only have to do one side on the bottom like in the picture - Not both rolls of cells

Of course you must do both rows, top and bottom! A cell cannot do ANYTHING with one end only connected!

This is exactly why I asked you to study those simple hobby battery interactive pages designed to teach amateur hobby guys the same thing.

I did look at them - i didnt mean both rolls - Top and bottom - in that sentence - what i meant was - the top as in the picture - then flip it over the bottom - just where the red marks are ? one roll of cells on the bottom only or both rolls on the bottom ? that was what i wanted to know

[Burgerman]

So if the picture is correct just as it is ? then thats how i will do it - i know i need to know why its correct that way - i have an idea but i am not sure 100% - and i have no one here that knows it either - so its me and your help

Spend an hour here http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/lipo.html It says EXACTLY what you need to know and keep asking over and over.

Then DRAW it out on your desk with a pen, for say 2 in series. Then 2 in parallel. Keep it simple. Then 3... Once it clicks you will never need as a question or guess, copy photos, etc.

This really is super simple and you are making it way more complicated than it is. You must just understand this bit because otherwise I see problems ahead. This cell thing, is taught to every 12 year old kid in school. You can grasp it if you try!

http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/lipo.html tells ALL! The 2nd diagram is easier and closer to what you are doing. But understand the first one too!

[Burgerman]

I did look at them - i didnt mean both rolls - Top and bottom - in that sentence - what i meant was - the top as in the picture - then flip it over the bottom - just where the red marks are ? one roll of cells on the bottom only or both rolls on the bottom ? that was what i wanted to know

Read this 4 times. Absolute confusion! You must take lessons in confusion! Don't take a job in air traffic control!

Try and word that in clear simple logic. What are you asking?

[expresso]

Before that Picture -

my vision was this - lets say i have 8 Cells only - i line it up in a Roll - Pos up - first cell - Neg down - Pos up Neg down etc, all 8 - in a roll -

i connect the first Cell Pos to next Cell Neg. - the Pos again to neg. again going down the line - at the end of the line - one side is Neg. - opposite side is Pos lead wire - that would be 24 V 12ah - pack

thats correct ?

[expresso]

Ok - let me try this again - it is confusing - i need to work at making it clearer

JUST looking at the picture i posted - the pack shows the top - all connected correctly for a 24V 24ah pack - thats correct ?

the bottom part which the picture dosnt show - but Shirley put the RED marks to show where the bottom connectors should be connected - when i asked about the bottom part -

now the RED MARKS showing how to connect the bottom roll - thats just one roll on the bottom that gets connected where the RED MARKS are - or both rolls on the bottom get connected the same way ?

when i start this - i will post pictures with cardboard connectors to make sure first - do you get what i mean now ?

[Burgerman]

http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/lipo.html

This really is as clear and simple as this is ever going to get. In dumbed down simplicated graphics.

[expresso]

I am wondering now if i have enough of those bus connectors ? i think i ordered just two extra - but i am under the impression the one free they send is all you would need

for a while i though i had this and now i feel like this might have been a bad decision for me to do -

[expresso]

http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/lipo.html

This really is as clear and simple as this is ever going to get. In dumbed down simplicated graphics.

i have that page saved - and have looked at it - and i get it for a short moment - then gets confusing - but i think i may start to play with the 8 Cells i have already looking at that page and taking pictures to show you -


this is why i didnt want to get started - but i did and i do want to learn and make it work - would be a real waste if i didnt try it -

[shirley_hkg]

You should start playing with the cells you've got.

Post pictures and ask opinions to help you getting them connected to produce a 26V output .

[flagman1776]

Your picture is fine. You are over thinking this & confusing yourself. What is in the photo is a battery pack. A 2P (parrallel), 8S (series) battery pack, to be technical. If the cells were charged, you could run on it... Until the pack is dead. Then you need to charge it.

However, to charge it, with a smart charger OR BMS needs balance wires... they connect to the Smart Charger balance port or the BMS balance port.
Think of the balance wires, in term of a single cell. Each cell needs 2 balance wires (one to the cell plus, one to the cell minus) to know what THAT cell's condition is. When you have a series, the minus wire from the previous cell is also the plus wire of the next cell... and so on. So a 8 series requires just 9 thin balance wires. They balance wires plug into the Smart Charger or BMS IN ORDER & the circuits do the work of sorting the cells & charging each correctly.

[expresso]

Your picture is fine. You are over thinking this & confusing yourself. What is in the photo is a battery pack. A 2P (parrallel), 8S (series) battery pack, to be technical. If the cells were charged, you could run on it... Until the pack is dead. Then you need to charge it.

However, to charge it, with a smart charger OR BMS needs balance wires... they connect to the Smart Charger balance port or the BMS balance port.
Think of the balance wires, in term of a single cell. Each cell needs 2 balance wires (one to the cell plus, one to the cell minus) to know what THAT cell's condition is. When you have a series, the minus wire from the previous cell is also the plus wire of the next cell... and so on. So a 8 series requires just 9 thin balance wires. They balance wires plug into the Smart Charger or BMS IN ORDER & the circuits do the work of sorting the cells & charging each correctly.

thanks for the reassurance - i check the 8 cells i have - they all show 3.3V each - all of them -

here are a few pictures - if i had to do just 8 Cells - i am a little upset with EV with the shipping and not knowing what is going on with the other 8 Cells i am waiting for - i am about to just cancel it if i dont hear back from them in a day or two -

one pic is top view and other is bottom view -

[expresso]

another way - - top and bottom view

[ex-Gooserider]

IMHO it is also probably a good idea to cover any parts of metal tools with shrink tube or electrical tape except for the parts that need to be exposed to work... Minimize the risks of dropping things or other accidental contacts with live parts.

ex-Gooserider

Remember that.

When you assemble these cells and bus bars, they are live. You cant turn off a cell. Each one can produce hundreds or thousands of amps if shorted out. So you need to do the following to be safe.

1. Work carefully, because a dropped tool or bus bar (connector part with 2 holes in it) can short out cells. Much heat and sparks will be produced.
2. Wear eye glasses and rubber gloves, and be careful! You cant get a shock, volts too low. But you can be burned.
3. Be aware! Don't try and join the wrong terminals!!!

[Burgerman]

All photos are wrong. And will short out the cells.

[shirley_hkg]

another way - - top and bottom view

WHAT ARE YOU DOING ? ? ?

[Burgerman]

Its why I keep telling him to learn why so HE knows its wrong, and not try and copy things.

[shirley_hkg]

Its why I keep telling him to learn why so HE knows its wrong, and not try and copy things.

He plays audio stuffs . I thought he is playing Dynaco tube amp like I do.

The picture on the top of this page is damm right . Enlarge the photo and you can see the +/- . Follow it.