PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

[Glen59]

Hi Mr Burgerman, I have a couple questions about a battery charger I've been reading about for a while now, it's made by CETEK and it's a model MUS 4.3 8 step charger. http://smartercharger.com/battery-chargers/#CTEK Multi US 4.3 This model as well as others they make purport to have a reconditioning function that can restore deeply stratified and discharged batteries. Do you have any experience with these chargers or similar type of chargers and if so have you had any luck bringing back previously thought to be worn out batteries to a usable state of charge? They also make a Battery Analyzer Model 56-925 http://smartercharger.com/?s=56-925+analyzer&x=0&y=0 that I was thinking about buying that does a conductive test and tells if the battery is good or bad and if good how many CCA's are still available. The problem with using it is to do an accurate test your suppose to enter the CCA rating listed on the battery, my MK M24 SLDG 73.6AH batteries aren't rated as far as CCA's and nowhere online can I find that information. Doing my research I seem to have found that starting batteries and deep cycle batteries are rated differently so unless you know a formula to convert ampere hours to CCA's I won't be able to use that analyzer to test my 12yr old plus batteries. I realize they need replacing and I plan to in the spring but I thought it would be interesting to see if the CETEK charger would bring back some life to my old worn out batteries. Do you have an opinion on which kind of tester is best, carbon pile load test or conductive test? Thanks in advance for your input and words of wisdom:) Glen

[Burgerman]

Where to start...

Stages... Theres only 3 stages that matter. Almost every battery charger made in europe at least has been a 3 stage charger at least during this century. Its almost impossible to find prehistoroc old taper chargers, or so called float charger (that just sit at 13.6 to 13.8V indefinitely) today.

In an attempt to sell more we then add a bunch of bulshit stages... Cetaek, that I used to sell, are pretty good chargers as long as you get one with the correct CV stage voltage for your battery. Reconditioning and stratification only applies to huge wet batteries and is a throwback to the days when they just sat on a float charger indefinitely or were left to go completely flat at which point many modern chargers refuse to recognise that a battery exists... It consists of an overvoltage 16V charge for a limited periodc that will damage modern recombinant sealed batteries.

So you only need:

CC stage (bulk is how the ignorant describe this, Constant Current is the chargers max power in amps, so isnt really a stage, more a description of what happens next)

CV stage. Once the previous weedy charger has pulled thebattery voltage at full power up to this point (A choosen voltage) then it doesent allow it to go any higher. So at this point the charger throttle back to make sure that the voltage never exceeds the choosen one. What is correct? Gel 14.10V, AGM 14.3 to 14.7 depending on actual specs, see manufacturers tech data. Pure lead like odyssey, Optima, 14.70V. This stage ENDS when current fally very low. This on many chargers happens way too soon. But should be around 100thC to 200thC for best cycle life followed by:

FLOAT stage. This is a fixed 13.5 to 13.6V indefinitely. Initially some current (up to 1 amp on big batteries) will flow, and eventually this will fall to an almost zero level after 4 to 10 hours or so. At which point its actually 100% charged. If you fail to do this the battery will sulfate over time and reduce cycle life.

Thge tester can only measur battery resistance and guess all the rest. Its to determine the cranking amp capability. You wont find that on a gel battery, or most deep cycle batteries because they cannot produce large currents. So are crap for engine starting and it can damage the gel to try and create voids. You need to be measuring Capacity, and voltage drom at a 25A load initially and over time to test deep cycle batteries. Odyssey and Optima purte lead though have BETTER cranking amps than starter only batteries and can do 450 deep cycles too. Which is why I use them.

[dhardin]

I have a opportunity to purchase 2 like new (Never put in service) MK - M24 SLD G FT GEL Mobility Scooter Battery.
The seller/scooter dealer tells me they were in wheelchairs that was new chairs but old inventory. They estimated age of the battery is 18 month old. They are now all charged and available at a big reduced price.

Is this worth looking into?

Pros and cons.

[Burgerman]

Probably not. Unless they were removed 18 months ago, and kept topped up.

[dhardin]

Thanks Burgerman. You know your stuff. Love reading you posts. Very informative.

I feel the same as you about these old unused batteries.

Knowing and understanding my application is somewhat different to a regular daily chair user. My planes are to use a battery of this size and type in a DIY segway.

2 standard 2 brush Incocare motor/gearbox.
Adrenio controlled
Sabertooth dual 60A motor driver with a peak 120 amp for a short time load.

one notable issue is i hope to use a larger and wider wheel (for speed) and some outdoor use. (no mud or sand) sidewalks and some grass.
Plus this is a project i am building with my grandson, (13, little guy) but I am on the larger side pushing 250 lbs.

Knowing this I don't think short cutting here to save $150 on a set of batteries is worth it.
Sorry to go on so but my application is different, but still looking for a workable usable "ST' (Senior Transport). My poor health keeps from prolonged walks and keeping up with Grandkids.

Thanks again Dan H

[Burgerman]

Well a brand new best possible quality lead brick is a massive lead weight brick. That actually stores very little power and worse performs worse the faster you take the power than last under a year for heavy use applications. So the idea of lead at all isnt great, but a suspect one isnt worth looking at.

[dhardin]

I really have not looked to see what I could get in the line of Lithum to meet my objective for around $350?

[Burgerman]

Read the lithium thread.

Lithium is when done correctly very practical and safe. But you need to learn some stuff, and build a suitable pack. There' no over the counter solution that works. Or should I say gives the benefits lithium CAN offer.

[Mark]

I have a opportunity to purchase 2 like new (Never put in service) MK - M24 SLD G FT GEL Mobility Scooter Battery.
The seller/scooter dealer tells me they were in wheelchairs that was new chairs but old inventory. They estimated age of the battery is 18 month old. They are now all charged and available at a big reduced price.

Is this worth looking into?

Pros and cons.

If they sat in an unsold wheelchair for 18 months without being charged (highly likely) then I wouldn't touch them.

Unless they disconnected / removed the batteries they would be flat after a few months from the small drain the w/c demands even when switched off. Unless they were regularly charged (unlikely) or kept on the correct float voltage (even less likely) they will have been seriously compromised even if they appear to take a charge.

Stay well clear unless you can really trust any guarantee they give you to refund your money if they don't last at least 12 months. Having a guarantee is one thing. Getting it honoured is something else!

[dhardin]

I will be passing on the new old stock batteries. I am still looking for something to come close to these 24v 70Amp batteries.

Only thing I have found close in dollars is this.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-New-24V-10 ... 2a2b7bf6a5

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LiFePO4-Battery ... 1118170789

I allready have a 8 amp Invocare charger.

[Burgerman]

You wont find any ready to go lithium worth fitting. And those certainly are not!

[woodygb]

To get close to 70 Amp hr's you need something that is ....Ummm ....close to 70 Amp hours.

Any LifePo batteries that you purchase that are built into a standard battery case with a BMS will probably be a waste of money.... I know it's an EASY option ...but you'll be disappointed and out of pocket.

[Burgerman]

To get close to 70 Amp hr's you need something that is ....Ummm ....close to 70 Amp hours.

If you dont want short service life you really need MORE Ah. Its why my new chair has 120Ah to replace 68Ah of lead.

[Chairbornetraveler]

Evening.
A newbie. But a hugely enjoyable site.

Currently pulling my Otto bock A200 out of storage. I'm sure the batteries are scrubbed, if so what do I use for a replacement.
Something airline friendly would be a good and the charger, are all these created equal?
Much thanks.

[Burgerman]

No.

[Burgerman]

I suggest reading this thread from the start. Then maybe the lithium thread from the start? All your questions are answered.

[Chairbornetraveler]

Jesus, I've signed up to a cult.
Lithium eh.
Back later.
Ta.

[Burgerman]

If you dont want to learn, then heres the answer you need. Buy MK Gel batteries, only. As big as you can fit into the space you have.

Charge fully as often as possible overnight everynight if used. And every 2 weeks if unused.

No cults here. Unless you count all religous groups, and I certainly do.

[Chairbornetraveler]

Tore through the thread. I'm better informed about batteries, the need for proper charging. I too grew up on run right down and power back up theory. (and that was with uhers and marantz audio recorders) in the end I had battery boxes fitted and carried a pouch of spare batteries. Not an option on this

Having read the initial few posts on batteries. I figured (mistakenly) that modern technology had moved on. It would seem not.

I'll haul the dud batteries over to my usual source and see what he says (it'll probably involve bad language for not charging his batteries properly. But it's difficult when you're rarely home)
I'll let you know.
Any advice on battery chargers which don't weigh a ton in the hand luggage would be greatly appreciated. Also those largely impervious to foreign electricity would be brilliant.
I don't understand electricity, I don't like it. I've had too many near misses with idiots attempting to rig stuff up on the cheap
Thanks again.

[Burgerman]

http://www.ringautomotive.co.uk/uk/prod ... o/RSCPR824

Charging MK gel correctly isnt easy as most chargers dont. This can.

http://www.ringautomotive.co.uk/files/m ... ctions.pdf

[LROBBINS]

Why, in this day and age, does Ring make otherwise very nice looking chargers that operate only on 220V? Some people do travel to places where the mains supply is not 220. Ciao, Lenny

[Burgerman]

Do they only work on 220? I didnt see that.

Quick read shows it doesent actually say 110/120 but most switch mode stuff doesent care. It just "chops" the 24v out of the 110/220/240 or whatever? I used to run a 240v PC on a 120v generator in my dyno trailer. Monitor, PC power supply, and printer never complained. Some stuff might.

Maybe a phone call will help.

[Irving]

Do they only work on 220? I didnt see that.

Quick read shows it doesent actually say 110/120 but most switch mode stuff doesent care. It just "chops" the 24v out of the 110/220/240 or whatever? I used to run a 240v PC on a 120v generator in my dyno trailer. Monitor, PC power supply, and printer never complained. Some stuff might.

Maybe a phone call will help.

That's ok for a low wattage device, but remember if you halve the voltage you're going to double the current and that might be problematic for inline fuses, power cords, etc. on higher powered devices and/or those with low Power Factors (PF) at say 1000W+.

The user manual for the Ring charger specifically says 230v/50Hz 480w input (i.e. 2A if PF =1 , but could be 3A+) for the 24v version (24 x 8 = 192W out; surprisingly inefficient) so on 110 its going to draw 4 - 6A+ so probably OK, if it works.

[Burgerman]

Ring exports its products all around the world, to 70 countries or more and employs 70-100 people and the warehouse in Leeds holds 20,000 product lines.

Seriously, it must do 110?

[saker98]

Just an update:

Tanya Batteries no longer refund V.A.T. Unless they "supply and fit" them as deemed by the HMRC.

Paragraph from their website:

"However, as much as we’d like to, this isn’t something that we are able to offer as HMRC advice states that companies are only able to supply batteries zero rated for VAT if that company both supplies and fits the batteries in that single transaction."

saker98.

[Burgerman]

"However, as much as we’d like to, this isn’t something that we are able to offer as HMRC advice states that companies are only able to supply batteries zero rated for VAT if that company both supplies and fits the batteries in that single transaction."

Its what they say. Its also incorrect.

[saker98]

It's what they say. Its also incorrect

If that is what they say and act upon it, it just stops them gaining our custom?

I have just purchased my two Odyssey PC1500 AGM from eurobatt.co.uk for £206.07 each with free next day delivery. This can be done over the phone or online.

saker98

[Burgerman]

Yes its their loss.

But I decided a few years back that I cant afford lead batteries any longer!

[saker98]

Yes its their loss.

But I decided a few years back that I cant afford lead batteries any longer!

I will be hoping to leave them behind next year! All being well.

[Glyphi]

Just taken the two old and dead batteries out of my F55S. They were very tall (Lucas 211mm tall jobbies) so the front battery was laid on it's side. The battery box is the standard sunrise part with a groove descending down middle to only give about 178mm maximum height at the front.

So I'm looking at your recommended batteries and the M34 would fit in both vertical, the M24 and Odyssey would fit with the front on it's side (I assume AGM are OK on their side?) It looks like the Sonnenschein might be to tight a squeeze. Can anyone confirm all/any of this? I'm badly in need of sleep, not sure I'm seeing straight, and fancy some reassurance before parting with the dosh.

I assume the lower internal resistance of the Odyssey means I'll get longer range that the M24, as well as the other mentioned differences.

Fascinating reading in this thread - will have to read it all again when decided on the battery to pick a suitable charger.

Thanks all,
Glyn