Hi everyone,
Having spent the last few days googling various WAVs I have been on the whole very impressed with the inginuity displayed and practicality offered. One thing I did notice was the lack of any small cars and have found a few reports of people parking close to a someone elses WAV blocking entry which is a massive pain especially if the wheelchair user is the driver, is this common complaint? Hence I was wondering if a adaption kit for an existing small car would be desirable? possibly for a Toyota IQ?
I know many of you want the space and comfort of a larger vehicle, but consider this just for short to mid-range drives. Would love to here your thoughts on the matter.
Thanks a lot, jakethestudent
small city car
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small city car
by jakethestudent » 13 Feb 2011, 14:04
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Re: small city car
by Burgerman » 13 Feb 2011, 15:49
You dont make it clear if we are talking about someone that can transfer, or needs to be driving or transported in a wheelchair.
Presumably you are talking about driving from a wheelchair?
That means either a high roof, or lowered floor. There are certainly rear entry drive from vehicles available, and small.
See here on this site http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... -roadshow/ pics...
But the problem is that to get in at all you use up all the space. No rear seat, no room to turn or move about to put shopping down etc. Whats a car for if theres no place to load shopping, or fishing gear, or model planes and helicopters etc. Plus being in a chair dictates that you NEED a few spares, like a spare whheel, tools, charger for in car etc. Without these and in my case a few medical "spares" such as continence stuff, etc then you are too vulnerable to getting stuck/trapped/unable to get home.
As for getting trapped by other cars, then in my own experience rear door entry is worse here. Park at the side of the street and you can gaurantee someone will park behind. Side doors open onto pavement or road. And if you allow for the fact that the small car has to have 8 feet behind it to get in/out then its no longer small... Side door ramps are ok on the street, and in car parks I just use two spaces, or park at the end of a row, or at the side where there are no marked bays.
I am not sure a smaller one is practical if you intend driving from a wheelchair. Since it requires rear seats, shelf and tailgate space to be unused and only for access. But they are cheaper, and use less fuel? You just cant take anything that wont fit on your knee, then move it to the passenger seat with you. And be careful as many of these will not let a normal hi end wheelchair be used either.
Presumably you are talking about driving from a wheelchair?
That means either a high roof, or lowered floor. There are certainly rear entry drive from vehicles available, and small.
See here on this site http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... -roadshow/ pics...
But the problem is that to get in at all you use up all the space. No rear seat, no room to turn or move about to put shopping down etc. Whats a car for if theres no place to load shopping, or fishing gear, or model planes and helicopters etc. Plus being in a chair dictates that you NEED a few spares, like a spare whheel, tools, charger for in car etc. Without these and in my case a few medical "spares" such as continence stuff, etc then you are too vulnerable to getting stuck/trapped/unable to get home.
As for getting trapped by other cars, then in my own experience rear door entry is worse here. Park at the side of the street and you can gaurantee someone will park behind. Side doors open onto pavement or road. And if you allow for the fact that the small car has to have 8 feet behind it to get in/out then its no longer small... Side door ramps are ok on the street, and in car parks I just use two spaces, or park at the end of a row, or at the side where there are no marked bays.
I am not sure a smaller one is practical if you intend driving from a wheelchair. Since it requires rear seats, shelf and tailgate space to be unused and only for access. But they are cheaper, and use less fuel? You just cant take anything that wont fit on your knee, then move it to the passenger seat with you. And be careful as many of these will not let a normal hi end wheelchair be used either.
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Re: small city car
by Burgerman » 13 Feb 2011, 16:10
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... r-1024.jpg
At the pub in town. Myself driving (only 1 pint constable!) and two freinds. In the rear, my helicopter, a suitcase full of medical bits and pieces) and a spare wheel for my powerchair, 2 chargers, and other important stuff. Reqwuired for emergencies, backup, etc.
Your new design needs to allow for this kind of stuff. Well maybe not the helicopter! http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/trex-500.htm
At the pub in town. Myself driving (only 1 pint constable!) and two freinds. In the rear, my helicopter, a suitcase full of medical bits and pieces) and a spare wheel for my powerchair, 2 chargers, and other important stuff. Reqwuired for emergencies, backup, etc.
Your new design needs to allow for this kind of stuff. Well maybe not the helicopter! http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/trex-500.htm
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Re: small city car
by Martin O Refurbisher » 13 Feb 2011, 18:41
Burgerman is referrring to his radio-controlled model helicopter, but the point is the same. We all want to live lives that are as near normal as is possible. Transport is crucial - Burgerman has pretty much nailed down our requirements for the power chair. Much however remains to be done about transport.
For example, I have limited mobility, so drive an adapted Citroen C4 Grand Picasso Automatic (7 seat) with a small electric Bryg-Aid crane in the back, which is barely adequate, and picks the chair up and loads it into the space normally occupied by the 3rd row of seats. With the dog taking up two of the 3 middle row seats, (where I go, she goes), that leaves one seat for tools, shopping etc, and two of us in the front. We normally need 1-2 more seats, so have to pack the tools & shopping around the chair, and move the dog over to just one seat.
Short arm problems are overcome by using fabric pull cords for the tailgate and doors; I have supplementary panoramic mirror, steering wheel ball, full power seats, five point harness etc.
Rear ramps get blocked - side ramps need reasonably level ground/kerbs & clear space. Cranes are no good if you need to stay in the chair / drive from the chair.
It will be very interesting to see your solution concept!
Best,
Martin
For example, I have limited mobility, so drive an adapted Citroen C4 Grand Picasso Automatic (7 seat) with a small electric Bryg-Aid crane in the back, which is barely adequate, and picks the chair up and loads it into the space normally occupied by the 3rd row of seats. With the dog taking up two of the 3 middle row seats, (where I go, she goes), that leaves one seat for tools, shopping etc, and two of us in the front. We normally need 1-2 more seats, so have to pack the tools & shopping around the chair, and move the dog over to just one seat.
Short arm problems are overcome by using fabric pull cords for the tailgate and doors; I have supplementary panoramic mirror, steering wheel ball, full power seats, five point harness etc.
Rear ramps get blocked - side ramps need reasonably level ground/kerbs & clear space. Cranes are no good if you need to stay in the chair / drive from the chair.
It will be very interesting to see your solution concept!
Best,
Martin
- Martin O Refurbisher
Re: small city car
by LorrieT » 12 Jul 2011, 19:58
I think the obvious challenge with small cars is height. I wouldn't say modifying any car is impossible but many would cost lots of money to modify and customize. I live in the states and I hope that someday there will be more choices when it comes to WAVs.
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Re: small city car
by ex-Gooserider » 13 Jul 2011, 02:58
What seems to me the height of stupidity is the current system of converting conventional vehicles. It basically amounts to paying someone to put the car together, then paying someone else to take it back apart, throw out a lot of the parts, and put it back together with new bits... It would be much better IMHO if a few of the car makers could come out with "wheelchair ready" models that have appropriate floor-ceiling heights, window height, and so forth, and possibly with some provisions built in to make it easy to install ramps and the various adaptive driving stuff that folks need... Given the number of conversion companies and their claimed production, it probably would have sales numbers comparable to some of the less popular conventional cars, especially since if the vehicle only needs to be built once, I would expect the "wheelchair ready" model to be priced a lot less than what the current conversion vehicles cost...
The van I'm in the process of getting, is a 2010 used model, and cost us about $20K, the state is picking up the additional $30K that the conversion will cost (Note, I am not using any "high tech" driving gear) Most of that will be going to Braun for the floor drop and ramp, etc. Probably about $5K will be going to Ride-Away for the actual driving controls, lock down for the chair, and so forth...
My understanding is that a new vehicle would have been about $25-27K, and would have had the same costs for conversion... If a major car company was to make a wheelchair ready model and sell it for about $30K, I'd bet that it would be a really good seller because everyone would win on the deal, except maybe the conversion companies like Braun or Rollx - who might need to develop a different niche (like converting "non-standard" vehicles...
ex-Gooserider
The van I'm in the process of getting, is a 2010 used model, and cost us about $20K, the state is picking up the additional $30K that the conversion will cost (Note, I am not using any "high tech" driving gear) Most of that will be going to Braun for the floor drop and ramp, etc. Probably about $5K will be going to Ride-Away for the actual driving controls, lock down for the chair, and so forth...
My understanding is that a new vehicle would have been about $25-27K, and would have had the same costs for conversion... If a major car company was to make a wheelchair ready model and sell it for about $30K, I'd bet that it would be a really good seller because everyone would win on the deal, except maybe the conversion companies like Braun or Rollx - who might need to develop a different niche (like converting "non-standard" vehicles...
ex-Gooserider
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Re: small city car
by Martin O Refurbisher » 17 Jul 2011, 03:48
I believe that conversiosn started as most vehicles had to overcome the old drive trai nwith a rear differential.
Now we can have 4 wheels each powered by electric motors, how about a radical new design?
Best,
Martin
Now we can have 4 wheels each powered by electric motors, how about a radical new design?
Best,
Martin
- Martin O Refurbisher
Re: small city car
by ex-Gooserider » 17 Jul 2011, 07:14
I'd agree the electric motor concept is an interesting one, I've occasionally wondered about the practicality of doing an auto sized variant on the railroad locomotive of using an electric motor on each wheel, and a moderately sized steady speed fuel generator to power them (w/ possibly a smallish battery bank to buffer the load)
Quite aside from the possibilities of adapted design / construction (or not) I've read that most of the engine power in a car is only needed for acceleration, so a constant speed engine might be made a lot smaller. In addition it is supposed to be possible to tune an engine that only runs in a narrow speed range to be extremely efficient - that the compromises in things like intake and exhaust system sizing and such needed to allow a car engine to run well at speeds from idle to full throttle cause current designs to be less efficient....
I haven't done a lot of study on just how much power such a design would need to work, but I look at the emergency generator in our portable garage, 6.5KW output, which will run most of our house, with about an 8hp lawnmower grade engine and go for 5-10 hours on 5 (US) gallons of gas and wonder what would happen if I tried to shoehorn it into a vehicle with a couple hp electric motor on each wheel?
On the conversion question, the old drive train was a factor, but it isn't really relevant for most modern WAV designs... Most of the newer minivans and other WAV conversions are front wheel drive, so they can convert them by lowering the floor. This requires relocating / redesigning the exhaust system, gas tank, and so on that are still under the floor in a non converted vehicle, but there is a good bit of flexibility in where they move stuff...
In the older "Full Size" vans that did have a rear-wheel drive, the conversion was mostly done by raising the roof because you couldn't readily relocate the driveshaft / transmission, etc. However, it seems that other than "commercial" use, there aren't many of the full size vans being converted, both because of the fuel cost issue, and because of the problems (like not being able to get into parking garages) that the raised roof caused.
ex-Gooserider
Quite aside from the possibilities of adapted design / construction (or not) I've read that most of the engine power in a car is only needed for acceleration, so a constant speed engine might be made a lot smaller. In addition it is supposed to be possible to tune an engine that only runs in a narrow speed range to be extremely efficient - that the compromises in things like intake and exhaust system sizing and such needed to allow a car engine to run well at speeds from idle to full throttle cause current designs to be less efficient....
I haven't done a lot of study on just how much power such a design would need to work, but I look at the emergency generator in our portable garage, 6.5KW output, which will run most of our house, with about an 8hp lawnmower grade engine and go for 5-10 hours on 5 (US) gallons of gas and wonder what would happen if I tried to shoehorn it into a vehicle with a couple hp electric motor on each wheel?
On the conversion question, the old drive train was a factor, but it isn't really relevant for most modern WAV designs... Most of the newer minivans and other WAV conversions are front wheel drive, so they can convert them by lowering the floor. This requires relocating / redesigning the exhaust system, gas tank, and so on that are still under the floor in a non converted vehicle, but there is a good bit of flexibility in where they move stuff...
In the older "Full Size" vans that did have a rear-wheel drive, the conversion was mostly done by raising the roof because you couldn't readily relocate the driveshaft / transmission, etc. However, it seems that other than "commercial" use, there aren't many of the full size vans being converted, both because of the fuel cost issue, and because of the problems (like not being able to get into parking garages) that the raised roof caused.
ex-Gooserider
Martin O Refurbisher wrote:I believe that conversiosn started as most vehicles had to overcome the old drive trai nwith a rear differential.
Now we can have 4 wheels each powered by electric motors, how about a radical new design?
Best,
Martin
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Re: small city car
by Martin O Refurbisher » 24 Jul 2011, 09:54
Yes. I see the originator, Jake has gone quiet!
One problem with height in UK is many carparks have a height limitation bar, to prevent commercial vheicls using the car park, variously set at 2.00, 2.07 or 2.27 metres. Originally, these came in to prtect roofs in low height multi-storey car parks, but now they are used as blockers for many open space car parks as well.
I am now expecting to join the BM clan and move from a Citroen C4 Grand Picasso (7 seat people carrier) with crane to pick up my powerchair, to a WAV. I have the assesor coming from Motability on 9th August, to determine which one I go for. I still have not settled on choice of rear or side ramp - thoughts welcomed!
I drive some of the time, and can transfer out of the chair, so do not need to drive from the chair. I carry up to 3 passengers, plus Missy, my 4 yr old staffie, who needs a double seat to lie across, so that is 6 seats including the driver. I would also like to be able to accomodate 2 powerchairs. I was thinking of the new Citroen minibus LWB as used for some taxis, as my starting point (I have built up a good relationship wiht my convenient local Citroen dealer over the last 3+ years of my present car). I am not welded to Citroen if there is something better however. It does need to be automatic, with power adjust front seats, then all adapatations that were fitted by Techmobility for me last time will still apply.
So far as adaptations go, Motability paid for me to have a half-day assessment at the Queen Elizabeth Foundation in Carshalton, before htey provided the Citroen C4GP.
These included the crane, (Brig-Ayd), steering wheel knob, 5 point seatbelt harness, panoramic mirror, door & tailgate pull straps. That, with the auto and power adjust seats, makes it usuable, although with hindsight, I would add a pull handle to the front passenger doorway.
For several reasons, including lack of capital, (what little I created went into the workshop), I will be getting my WAV from Motability rather than buying it myself outright as BM recommends.
Ideas as to another vheicle welcomed - the more compact the better (Ha Ha)
Best,
Martin
One problem with height in UK is many carparks have a height limitation bar, to prevent commercial vheicls using the car park, variously set at 2.00, 2.07 or 2.27 metres. Originally, these came in to prtect roofs in low height multi-storey car parks, but now they are used as blockers for many open space car parks as well.
I am now expecting to join the BM clan and move from a Citroen C4 Grand Picasso (7 seat people carrier) with crane to pick up my powerchair, to a WAV. I have the assesor coming from Motability on 9th August, to determine which one I go for. I still have not settled on choice of rear or side ramp - thoughts welcomed!
I drive some of the time, and can transfer out of the chair, so do not need to drive from the chair. I carry up to 3 passengers, plus Missy, my 4 yr old staffie, who needs a double seat to lie across, so that is 6 seats including the driver. I would also like to be able to accomodate 2 powerchairs. I was thinking of the new Citroen minibus LWB as used for some taxis, as my starting point (I have built up a good relationship wiht my convenient local Citroen dealer over the last 3+ years of my present car). I am not welded to Citroen if there is something better however. It does need to be automatic, with power adjust front seats, then all adapatations that were fitted by Techmobility for me last time will still apply.
So far as adaptations go, Motability paid for me to have a half-day assessment at the Queen Elizabeth Foundation in Carshalton, before htey provided the Citroen C4GP.
These included the crane, (Brig-Ayd), steering wheel knob, 5 point seatbelt harness, panoramic mirror, door & tailgate pull straps. That, with the auto and power adjust seats, makes it usuable, although with hindsight, I would add a pull handle to the front passenger doorway.
For several reasons, including lack of capital, (what little I created went into the workshop), I will be getting my WAV from Motability rather than buying it myself outright as BM recommends.
Ideas as to another vheicle welcomed - the more compact the better (Ha Ha)
Best,
Martin
- Martin O Refurbisher
Re: small city car
by ex-Gooserider » 25 Jul 2011, 07:03
I tend to agree with BM on the side entry being preferable, with a case being made for either side... Seems to me like it would be far easier to protect your ramp space with a side entry. Not familiar enough with the UK options to make a good suggestion, but if you need seating for 6 a typical US minivan like BM's would be a bit short - stock they seat seven, but the conversion takes out the two seat center row, leaving driver, and front seat passenger, plus the three seat rear bench, or 5 seats...
The minivan conversions can be done with a multi-way transfer seat, so you don't have to drive from the chair (but seems to me like transferring is an extra headache, so why not?) but I don't know how easy it would be to get two wheelchairs in if one of them wasn't up front. Since I don't have my van yet, I have to rely on paratransit companies to get me to doctors appointments. One of the companies has a very elderly Braun conversion in their fleet, and I find that it's snug to get just me in my chair into the van and turned to face forwards, not at all sure they could get a second chair in if that was needed. Obviously if you are driving from the chair, then it would be possible to get a second chair in behind you, though you'd need either a BM radio rig setup or to have someone else load the chair after you got in...
ex-Gooserider
The minivan conversions can be done with a multi-way transfer seat, so you don't have to drive from the chair (but seems to me like transferring is an extra headache, so why not?) but I don't know how easy it would be to get two wheelchairs in if one of them wasn't up front. Since I don't have my van yet, I have to rely on paratransit companies to get me to doctors appointments. One of the companies has a very elderly Braun conversion in their fleet, and I find that it's snug to get just me in my chair into the van and turned to face forwards, not at all sure they could get a second chair in if that was needed. Obviously if you are driving from the chair, then it would be possible to get a second chair in behind you, though you'd need either a BM radio rig setup or to have someone else load the chair after you got in...
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Re: small city car
by Burgerman » 25 Jul 2011, 10:11
Getting two, or three in is easy in my van, as I do with RC.
Protecting ramp space isnt the only advantage. More importantly you keep the rear seat/tailgate area for storage of tools, groceries, medical stuff, spare wheels, chargers, and the pile of items to be powder coated in there now! If you have to enter this way its all lost.
Protecting ramp space isnt the only advantage. More importantly you keep the rear seat/tailgate area for storage of tools, groceries, medical stuff, spare wheels, chargers, and the pile of items to be powder coated in there now! If you have to enter this way its all lost.
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Re: small city car
by Millard » 31 Jul 2011, 18:32
For urban driving, this one is hard to beat: http://quovis.com/
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Re: small city car
by Martin O Refurbisher » 31 Jul 2011, 20:10
A great little idea, but US only and I'm currently looking for a WAV which will carry 2 wheelchairs, drive + 3/4 passengers +dog, and the essential rear space BM mentions! Leader so far is the Citroen conversion of their LWB minibus to Taxi / WAV.
Best,
Martin
Best,
Martin
- Martin O Refurbisher
Re: small city car
by ex-Gooserider » 01 Aug 2011, 05:11
Actually Martin, it looks to me like the Quovis is manufactured in Spain, and it appears that the EU traffic regs (don't know if that applies to UK or not) are more accepting than US regs are - there is a recognized vehicle class for them in the EU, while here in the US they are kind of an oddball category that has varying acceptance in different states - plus rules on where you can drive them that would IMHO make them unsuitable for most US drivers, as we get on high speed roads quite regularly, and the Quovis is not legal to use on any road with a posted speed over 35mph...
It's cute, but I wouldn't want one as primary transportation, as I need a vehicle that can deal with highways (prevailing speed up to about 80 mph) safely and reliably.
ex-Gooserider
It's cute, but I wouldn't want one as primary transportation, as I need a vehicle that can deal with highways (prevailing speed up to about 80 mph) safely and reliably.
ex-Gooserider
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Re: small city car
by Martin O Refurbisher » 03 Aug 2011, 03:28
ex-Goose
I do quite a lot of days just travelling around the town, then switch to travelling hundreds of miles in a day.
In either case, I doubt this Quovis would carry me, my powerchair, John T, Missy (my Staffie) and the multiple toolkits, even around the town!
I agree its cute; might suit some.
Best,
Martin
I do quite a lot of days just travelling around the town, then switch to travelling hundreds of miles in a day.
In either case, I doubt this Quovis would carry me, my powerchair, John T, Missy (my Staffie) and the multiple toolkits, even around the town!
I agree its cute; might suit some.
Best,
Martin
- Martin O Refurbisher
Re: small city car
by ex-Gooserider » 03 Aug 2011, 07:19
Well if you want to go for cute, you can stay local, and go for a Nippy Seems like the minimal approach for sure... I'd love to see BM in one, though he probably wouldn't be happy till he hooked it up to a nitrous kit... 
No mention of it being available outside the UK, and not a lot of info on the website about what kind of performance it might have and the like. I know they get surprising speeds out of the 125cc scooters, but I'd expect that you would want a lot bigger engine with such a big frontal area if you wanted to be highway capable...
Basic concept seems pretty good though.
ex-Gooserider
No mention of it being available outside the UK, and not a lot of info on the website about what kind of performance it might have and the like. I know they get surprising speeds out of the 125cc scooters, but I'd expect that you would want a lot bigger engine with such a big frontal area if you wanted to be highway capable...
Basic concept seems pretty good though.
ex-Gooserider
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Re: small city car
by Burgerman » 03 Aug 2011, 07:42
I'd love to see BM in one, though he probably wouldn't be happy till he hooked it up to a nitrous kit...
And painted it black, fitted a 450bhp turbo suzuki bike engine and fat wheels and tyres... And even then I would be embarrassed.
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Re: small city car
by Anderida » 03 Aug 2011, 10:54
The Nippy is like the 'chariot' my Dad's friend built for himself in 1946/47. He used a two-stroke engine and bits he found lying around - I think some bits came from a German plane that had crashed in a field nearby.
He wheeled his chair up into it just like the Nippy. Then he was off to the shops in Pevensey Bay or to school in Eastbourne.
I'm surprised the idea has taken so long to catch on.
My Dad keeps saying this is just what I need - which shows just how completely he has missed the point.
Bless!
He wheeled his chair up into it just like the Nippy. Then he was off to the shops in Pevensey Bay or to school in Eastbourne.
I'm surprised the idea has taken so long to catch on.
My Dad keeps saying this is just what I need - which shows just how completely he has missed the point.
Bless!-
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Re: small city car
by ex-Gooserider » 04 Aug 2011, 07:30
Kidding aside, I think that if you are in a chair, the best solution is a vehicle that can be driven from the chair... Even if you CAN transfer, it seems counterproductive to have to do so...
When I was in rehab, they made a big deal of the idea that I should be able to transfer into a conventional car seat, (after warning me about the potential pressure sore hazards of using normal furniture w/o my cushion) and disassemble my manual chair, putting it on the seat next to me, or behind me, then when I got to my destination reversing the process, and getting back in the chair. (Hopefully without dropping any parts, or having the chair roll away on me...)
They got very defensive when I asked how they expected me to do a typical US style errand trip where I might stop at five or six different places a few miles apart in the course of an hour or two... They didn't like my point that their routine would take an extra 20 minutes or so per stop for two transfers plus playing with the chair... It wouldn't be very hard to have a trip where the getting in and out of the vehicle stuff took longer than the time actually doing the errands... Their response was that I was handicapped, so expect that....
Seems to me that with a drive from the chair vehicle, the time spent getting in and out shouldn't be a lot longer than the time it takes an AB to deal with a normal car. Perhaps a minute or two extra on each end waiting for ramps to deploy and so forth, but nothing like the drill they were trying to talk me into in rehab...
I made really sure when I was getting evaluated for my van that I was using my power chair, and that I emphasized how transfers were a potential problem due to my problematic right shoulder... Definitely I pushed for a drive from chair setup, and really wouldn't want anything else...
Way down the road, once we've dealt with the more pressing issues like getting basic transportation, and making the house fully accessible, I may look into trying to do an accessible bike so that I can start riding again. But if I do it will probably be for something on the order of one of the chariot style sidecar rigs with the controls shifted to the sidecar. I don't really have any desire to have a bike that I have to transfer onto a traditional bike seat to ride.
ex-Gooserider
When I was in rehab, they made a big deal of the idea that I should be able to transfer into a conventional car seat, (after warning me about the potential pressure sore hazards of using normal furniture w/o my cushion) and disassemble my manual chair, putting it on the seat next to me, or behind me, then when I got to my destination reversing the process, and getting back in the chair. (Hopefully without dropping any parts, or having the chair roll away on me...)
They got very defensive when I asked how they expected me to do a typical US style errand trip where I might stop at five or six different places a few miles apart in the course of an hour or two... They didn't like my point that their routine would take an extra 20 minutes or so per stop for two transfers plus playing with the chair... It wouldn't be very hard to have a trip where the getting in and out of the vehicle stuff took longer than the time actually doing the errands... Their response was that I was handicapped, so expect that....
Seems to me that with a drive from the chair vehicle, the time spent getting in and out shouldn't be a lot longer than the time it takes an AB to deal with a normal car. Perhaps a minute or two extra on each end waiting for ramps to deploy and so forth, but nothing like the drill they were trying to talk me into in rehab...
I made really sure when I was getting evaluated for my van that I was using my power chair, and that I emphasized how transfers were a potential problem due to my problematic right shoulder... Definitely I pushed for a drive from chair setup, and really wouldn't want anything else...
Way down the road, once we've dealt with the more pressing issues like getting basic transportation, and making the house fully accessible, I may look into trying to do an accessible bike so that I can start riding again. But if I do it will probably be for something on the order of one of the chariot style sidecar rigs with the controls shifted to the sidecar. I don't really have any desire to have a bike that I have to transfer onto a traditional bike seat to ride.
ex-Gooserider
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- Location: Billerica, MA. USA
Re: small city car
by Anderida » 04 Aug 2011, 09:39
I met a lovely guy who was a full-time wheelchair user following an accident 20 years ago. He had a neat small sporty manual chair which gave him a lot of manouevrability.
But I was amazed that to use his car he had to transfer to the drivers seat, dismantle the chair and lift it across him to the passengers side. WTF?
This great little chair suddenly became an encumberance that was really unnecessary. Short of driving from the chair - I appreciate a low-slung sports chair may be unsuitable for this - there must be a better way of getting a chair in and out of a car without the palaver of a hoist or ramp that requires an assistant to help.
If there is I would love to know because I currently have a wheelchair stuck in my car with a not-fit-for-purpose hoist. Motabilitys solution was to get a bigger car and they'll swap the hoist over. But I have searched their site for a suitable automatic only to find they require an upfront payment (which I do not have) and they are too big for the parking space in front of my house. They use more diesel/petrol and I don't need a 7-seater only to have two seats permanently removed and sitting in my shed. Bigger cars/vans may be fine elsewhere in the UK but here in London they are a problem to park or to get through width restrictions and narrow roads with parked cars both sides.
Motability did suggest a 'disabled-looking' Renault but stocks are not expected until September which means I will not be able to use my chair this summer as I had planned.
My AB friends are amazed that what they consider to be a basic need to take your wheelchair with you in the car has not been adequately addressed. As they pointed out, cars and wheelchairs have been with us for over a 100 years, you think somebody would have sorted this by now.
It seems too many people working in this field have attitudes like XG's rehab people.
But I was amazed that to use his car he had to transfer to the drivers seat, dismantle the chair and lift it across him to the passengers side. WTF?
This great little chair suddenly became an encumberance that was really unnecessary. Short of driving from the chair - I appreciate a low-slung sports chair may be unsuitable for this - there must be a better way of getting a chair in and out of a car without the palaver of a hoist or ramp that requires an assistant to help.
If there is I would love to know because I currently have a wheelchair stuck in my car with a not-fit-for-purpose hoist. Motabilitys solution was to get a bigger car and they'll swap the hoist over. But I have searched their site for a suitable automatic only to find they require an upfront payment (which I do not have) and they are too big for the parking space in front of my house. They use more diesel/petrol and I don't need a 7-seater only to have two seats permanently removed and sitting in my shed. Bigger cars/vans may be fine elsewhere in the UK but here in London they are a problem to park or to get through width restrictions and narrow roads with parked cars both sides.
Motability did suggest a 'disabled-looking' Renault but stocks are not expected until September which means I will not be able to use my chair this summer as I had planned.
My AB friends are amazed that what they consider to be a basic need to take your wheelchair with you in the car has not been adequately addressed. As they pointed out, cars and wheelchairs have been with us for over a 100 years, you think somebody would have sorted this by now.
It seems too many people working in this field have attitudes like XG's rehab people.
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Anderida - Posts: 184
- Joined: 03 Jun 2011, 14:19
- Location: Portsmouth, Hants UK
Re: small city car
by Burgerman » 04 Aug 2011, 10:12
They got very defensive when I asked how they expected me to do a typical US style errand trip where I might stop at five or six different places a few miles apart in the course of an hour or two... They didn't like my point that their routine would take an extra 20 minutes or so per stop for two transfers plus playing with the chair... It wouldn't be very hard to have a trip where the getting in and out of the vehicle stuff took longer than the time actually doing the errands... Their response was that I was handicapped, so expect that....
Exactly the same here. And with manual versus power wheelchairs the same stupid thing. Its because like religion, they are so brainwashed that they "believe" what they were trained to do/say etc. They cant see the wood for the trees.
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Burgerman - Site Admin
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- Location: United Kingdom
Re: small city car
by Ashley G » 04 Aug 2011, 16:55
ex-Gooserider wrote:
They got very defensive when I asked how they expected me to do a typical US style errand trip where I might stop at five or six different places a few miles apart in the course of an hour or two... They didn't like my point that their routine would take an extra 20 minutes or so per stop for two transfers plus playing with the chair... It wouldn't be very hard to have a trip where the getting in and out of the vehicle stuff took longer than the time actually doing the errands... Their response was that I was handicapped, so expect that....
And this, of course, is the root of our problem. Far too many so called "experts" telling us what we can and can't do - even venturing weird and fanciful reasons for why - instead of just doing what they should be doing .... which is helping us do what we want to do !
Regards
Ashley
- Ashley G
- Posts: 211
- Joined: 18 Sep 2010, 00:33
- Location: In a wheeliebin, S Manchester
Re: small city car
by ex-Gooserider » 05 Aug 2011, 03:57
There actually is an outfit in EU that I posted about a while ago - they make a setup to do drive from the chair with a manual sports chair - The setup had a sort of claw that came up from the floor and hooked over the axle tube to hold the chair, and a swiveling gate like gizmo that had what amounted to the back half of a car seat mounted on it. The gate swung in behind you and latched with the result being something that approximated a normal car seat back with headrest. You still needed a mini-van type vehicle to get into in the first place, but it did work...
As far as vehicles go, have you looked at the "Honda Element," Scion XB" or "Nissan Cube" (or their EU equivalents) They are cars that are sort of like small size minivans in concept - a fairly small vehicle on the outside, but with a very boxy body that gives a lot of room on the inside, especially good access into the rear seating / storage area.
ex-Gooserider
As far as vehicles go, have you looked at the "Honda Element," Scion XB" or "Nissan Cube" (or their EU equivalents) They are cars that are sort of like small size minivans in concept - a fairly small vehicle on the outside, but with a very boxy body that gives a lot of room on the inside, especially good access into the rear seating / storage area.
ex-Gooserider
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ex-Gooserider - Posts: 6232
- Joined: 15 Feb 2011, 06:17
- Location: Billerica, MA. USA
Re: small city car
by Martin O Refurbisher » 22 Aug 2011, 03:31
Anderida,
Sorry, somehow I missed this post of yours. Ring Motability at Harlow ( 01279 635999 ) ask for the grants dept.
Explain your problem and ask how they can help - you may be pleasantly suprised - I was!
Best,
Martin
Sorry, somehow I missed this post of yours. Ring Motability at Harlow ( 01279 635999 ) ask for the grants dept.
Explain your problem and ask how they can help - you may be pleasantly suprised - I was!
Best,
Martin
- Martin O Refurbisher
Re: small city car
by Step » 23 Aug 2011, 10:59
ex-Gooserider wrote:Way down the road, once we've dealt with the more pressing issues like getting basic transportation, and making the house fully accessible, I may look into trying to do an accessible bike so that I can start riding again. But if I do it will probably be for something on the order of one of the chariot style sidecar rigs with the controls shifted to the sidecar. I don't really have any desire to have a bike that I have to transfer onto a traditional bike seat to ride.
They exist and if I win the lottery, I'm getting one
http://www.mobilityworks.com/wheelchair-motorcycle.php
http://www.mobilityconquest.com/index.php
http://www.ride-away.com/wheelchair-accessible-motorcycle.php
- Step
- Posts: 619
- Joined: 12 May 2011, 16:24
- Location: Belgium
Re: small city car
by ex-Gooserider » 24 Aug 2011, 04:01
I've seen one of those, and frankly was kind of underwhelmed by it... Essentially it was nice looking, but HUGE - like someone was trying to figure out how to make a motorcycle have the same footprint as a minivan.... At the same time, they didn't make any use of that big bodywork for storage or whatever - if going on a long trip, you'd still need to rig up saddlebags and so forth, and the design wouldn't make that easy... Also the cost is astronomical.
I'm thinking more in terms of a traditional side-car rig, with the hack modified to let you enter from the rear, and with a set of handlebars mounted on the side car but linked to the bike handlebars. There was a company called "Tomco" that I think is now defunct, but that used to do this type of chair, the pictures I've seen of them are pretty impressive looking, and the handling theory actually says a sidecar rig with a driver in the chair is actually the most stable configuration...
I actually have a partially completed rig that would make a decent starting point for doing this sort of setup, but it's a fairly low priority for me, as I've got other things that are more critical to my daily life at this point.
ex-Gooserider
I'm thinking more in terms of a traditional side-car rig, with the hack modified to let you enter from the rear, and with a set of handlebars mounted on the side car but linked to the bike handlebars. There was a company called "Tomco" that I think is now defunct, but that used to do this type of chair, the pictures I've seen of them are pretty impressive looking, and the handling theory actually says a sidecar rig with a driver in the chair is actually the most stable configuration...
I actually have a partially completed rig that would make a decent starting point for doing this sort of setup, but it's a fairly low priority for me, as I've got other things that are more critical to my daily life at this point.
ex-Gooserider
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ex-Gooserider - Posts: 6232
- Joined: 15 Feb 2011, 06:17
- Location: Billerica, MA. USA
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