S646se - Full LITHIUM Pack Project - First Attempt

[Burgerman]

So, how many Ah? 71 used, 75 returned?

[expresso]

its still going - but just about done - i think it will end up at 72 ah returned -

maybe another 10 min or so - i ;post it

[Burgerman]

So used about 68 of your 105.

37 remaining. Or about 16 miles.

[expresso]

close - i should be good for another 15 miles like you said -

[expresso]

means i can safely do 40 miles without worrying about going near or below the 22V cutoff i set on the Rnet - ?

no need for a monitor - i really have to try hard to do this kind of range all the time - its not something i will do - but i may do easy 25 or 30 miles -

but 40 - not sure - i want to try it once just to see for the record -

i can explore around now and not worry how far i am - the park in NJ was very nice - will stay longer to explore next time i go -

and if i ever see i am get close to doing 40 miles on trips - then will add the ADD ON to it - another 36ah -

[Burgerman]

and not worry how far i am - the park in NJ was very nice - will stay longer to explore next time i

I read that as car park was very nice! Baffled as to why you would explore a car park for about 5 mins there!

Remember that the amount you use per mile over the day is variable. Depends on variables like hills, esp on how many people you are driving around when busy. And on temperatjre, tyre pressures or type (flat free = worse) etc. And you can waste 5 miles worth of power shuffling about indoors getting stuff together before you leave the house. Turning, left/right eats power!

As does ramps, shuffling about while talking etc. The most economical is straight lines, on a flat surface at around 2/3rds full speed without dodging pot hols or people or stopping and starting. Shopping, or watching women shop murders batteries!

As does left or right sloped footpaths or road surfaces. They do this to make water drain off. But it easily doubles power used.

[Burgerman]

Also you may notice that your lead bricks were about 74Ah.
Yet they will carry you about 16 to 18 miles before you are in the red?

Yet you covered 31 miles on just 68Ah using lithium ion phosphate. Or 2.19Ah per mile.

That means you are really getting just 38.4Ah maximum from your 74Ah MK gel lead bricks because of peukert and voltage drop/increase in resistance. And they are double the weight. And they last a year... Can you see why lead are crap!

[expresso]

i dont know what kind of Park that was - its right there so i went for a few mins - i didnt ride around much in there - who knows how far it went if i keep going around in there - i wanted to just test my range not explore till i know more about the range - maybe next time -

the roads - are what they are - bumps - hills - sideways - up down cracks - people - if i were able to just go in a line with out nothing in the way - i can get 50 miles easy - or more - i am very happy with the 40 i can do with all the turns etc,

i cant go back to Lead now - theres no way - it was well worth it for me to do this - i feel free to go where i want if i want - nothing special but just feels good to go way past the point where i have to turn back with lead - i dont worry about it now - i know for a fact 30 miles is easy and can be done -

its all ball park - if i use a few hanging out in front before i leave etc, - i have to process the video and post it up there - its Ok - good a few decent shots of the bridge - havnt decided if i will use the ADD ON Chair today or Full pack -

i may want to take it easy today - not breaking records

[expresso]

I am still trying to use it all up - havnt been able to do it in a Days Ride - even trying to use it up - i got 33 miles last time i tried

so i gave up and decided to do it over a few days time - i got up to 38.6 miles - between yesterday - i didnt charge and today -
its charging up now -

Pack Volt was about 25.6V - Cell about 3.2V and Fuel showed 9% - i think its pretty accurate the fuel - not on the nose accurate but close enough i think - i watch it as i charge and when its done it shows 100% -

when i did 33 miles it showed about 20% - now it was 9 % - at 38.6 Miles

so based on this - i think 40 miles is a good safe number to reach and then charge up - in time i may try to get over 40 miles over a few days of using it and not charging just to see how much i can get safely -

i set the Chair cut off at 22V - dosnt seem i will ever reach that low

will post results later -

[Burgerman]

When I told you a 105Ah lithium pack would go about 45 miles according to my calculator you didn't believe me!

You just did 39 with plenty left over.

[expresso]

i believed you - i just have to do it and see for myself to know - still going - well see when its done how much i had left over

i am going to say - 90ah used to 95ah -

[Burgerman]

But remember that you always put more back than you used up due to the fact that its not a 100 percent efficient process some is wasted as heat in cellls and wires etc. Are your charge wires hot? Say 4 to 6 percent is what you saw before? So It will look like you used about 5Ah more than you did.

Almost 40 miles, did you lose any lights?

Last time you did 2.2Ah per mile. So that would have been 39x 2.2 = 85 plus an extra 5 due to charge efficiency. So 90A used. If you use more then you did more shuffling about!!!

[expresso]

the wires are warm enough - at 35A charging at 74ah still going -

fuel showed 20% last time i did 33 miles - - now it showed 9% at 39 miles -

at 33 mile - i put back about 76Ah -

[Burgerman]

Almost 40 miles, did you lose any lights?

Last time you did 2.2Ah per mile. So that would have been 39x 2.2 = 85 plus an extra 5 due to charge efficiency. So 90A returned on the charger. If you use more then you did more shuffling about!!!

[expresso]

ALL lights Green - and mostly same ride - but i do a good half dozen hills -

its still going - i say 90ah to 95ah when done -

84ah so far - still going - -

[Burgerman]

Its also quite amazing that a tiny plastic hobby charger can put 40 miles back in under 3 hours to 100%.

Thats 3x as much energy as you get from a set new of GRP 24 lead batteries that you ran till you stopped!

[expresso]

yes thats great - i love it -

but this may be the about the limit give or take - its still going at 90ah back in - this may hit 95ah

its balancing now -

[Burgerman]

If you return 100, thats about 95 used. That means 40 miles is safe, with 10Ah left over.

4.5 miles to spare or almost half the range of some 22nf lead chairs...

Of course theres that addon. So another 36Ah or 46 altogether. Or another 20 miles... Can you do 60 in a day?

[expresso]

i think it may go over 95ah -

i have a hard time doing 40 - most i did in a day so far 33 miles

this was in two days - i didnt charge yesterday and used it today to try to hit 40 -

i was thinking of that ADD On - have to try it one day - i have a friend over the bridge in queens - hes about 15 miles once i get over the bridge -

i figure 5 miles to get over it - making it 20 miles one way - if i ever did try that - i would have to use the ADD ON

[expresso]

95ah returned -

[Burgerman]

So 90 used approx. About 15 in reserve. So super safe to do 40 miles, with around 5 miles reserve.

60 miles with the addon.

[expresso]

pretty cool to have all this range -

each cell was approx. 3.2V - pack was 25.6V -

2.7V is the most to be safe - seems it would have more to go before getting there ?

i set my Chair to cut off at 22V - thats way off the 25.6V i had today - would i run out of Gas long before i get to 22V

which i believe is safe to keep the cells about 2.7V each ?

[Burgerman]

Its in about 4.5 miles... It will drop lights fast very soon, after another 4 miles. Then you STOP. The last 1 mile will go from full to empty...

The problem with going below about 2.7V is that SOME cell groups may be lower and run out sooner, some higher. And they drop fast at the end. You dont want to ruin your battery...

But 4.5 miles reserve is a long way. More than some people do a day.

At 40 miles you are about 90% discharged. Ideally thats as far as you really should go. Yes theres more but keep it in reserve. If you want to go 55 miles use the addon too.

Thats pretty good, a stock chair cant manage 20 miles, usually 15 to 18, and thats till you stop. And that ruins the lead brick too!

With a slower 6mph chair, and 120Ah lithium battery mine should do a fair bit more if I ever get off this bed. Maybe 55 miles.

[expresso]

Ok - i keep it at or below 40 miles between charges

Cant complain here - i do feel how the taller gearing affects the uphills some - it does take a little hit - but still feels MUCH better than Lead for sure on those hills - - i am about 160 lbs - not too heavy - i wouldnt trade the top speed i have

works for me just fine - but if i did have the 6.5mph motors instead - with the same 105ah - i would get a bit more out of it - about 50 miles instead of 40 ?

i tried going at 7mph - and just dosnt feel good enough to me - this is when i am alone - with others i can keep it at 7mph and feels ok

[Burgerman]

works for me just fine - but if i did have the 6.5mph motors instead - with the same 105ah - i would get a bit more out of it - about 50 miles instead of 40 ?

Hard to say exactly as its not that much different at speed but more is wasted turning and hill climbing or making correctins at slowspeeds with faster motors. But yes about that difference.

Other ways to win...
Lighter! Fancy seating is heavy. Burgers are heavy afterwards...
Pneumatic tyres, less rolling resistance.
Move CG rearwards so less wasted turning or correcting all day long.
Bigger diameter casters, less rolling resistance.
Swapping to radial tubeless tyres, less rolling again.
Warmer weather - batteries work better.
No turning on the spot or indoor slow speed use.
No stopping and starting.

All of this will make a massive difference.

[expresso]

ok - but with all this range and power - not going to be picky with trying to get every last mile in there -

the chair has lift and tilt - works for me - i need them - makes my life easier transfering with the lift - its great - - wheels ok - thats a simple swap - but with this chair - Rnet 646 se - i dont feel the need for any changes to the tires - they feel soft and comfortable - unlike my pilot chair - which is hard as rock -

i can maybe in the future change to Air in the front casters - same size - so i can just swap them out myself - but dont feel the need that much - and i feel safer since i ride far - i can try the larger front casters one day or save that option for the next chair - to compare them after -

i am still waiting to get the pilot chair done - larger front casters with AIR - that i will do if i get the parts - not worry to much about it - thats going to be my back up chair - can still do 25 miles with that ADD On - not bad -

its still great what it does given all the weight and less that perfect setup with tires - etc, - too bad no one i know is going to do it - cant ride with company -

[Burgerman]

Your female freind has an anderson connector. Your addon will make her chair go about 35 miles.

[expresso]

yeah but everytime i offer advice or suggestions - never works out for them - so i have to stop doing it - for what ever reason - if you remember - she developed that Battery issues - where they cant figure out why its draining all the time or not lasting etc, -

around the same time we added that cable - so its been long removed now - and they never figured it out - they say its fine - and just change batteries but same thing happens - she will never touch it again now - - i then suggested she switch and try my vendor which she has and its not working out for her either - not sure what happened just yet -

and its always me in the middle so its best i dont offer advice - i just figured - if your not satisfied with one vendor after so many tries - try another one - and makes sense - but in this case - she may just go back to hers -
i am not sure if its a comb. of things - between stupid techs and vendors and the chair itself - invacare tech is not much help either -

everything is fine as long as your chair works - and if you only need tires and battery changes for the life of the chair - your good - but as soon as a Real issue arises that needs to be troubleshooted and really resolved - then everyone in the chain becomes 12 years old again with a lollipop in there mouth -

i try not to deal with vendors as much as i can - but sooner or later you have to for tires - i hope thats all i have to deal with - Not batteries thats for sure - i will ask for them next year and just use them in my indoor chair or as a spare for emergency lights in the house

every since Sandy - we lost power for a week here in the City - i have 4 batteries now sitting - being keep charged in case - at least i have light - power my bed - my toilet lift - charge cell phones - that wont work anyway - haha -

i have a land line phone in closet - will connect to use as needed - i never use it - i just keep it active for faxing -

i feel its all my fault - the problems with her chair battery issue - then my other friend who i gave advice - for his new chair - using my vendor also - that didnt work out for him - but he didnt listen to me - - not my fault - yes my vendor but he needed to take charge and take my advice not to get the R 4000 - even though long before he started the process - i did say it looks nice - thats before i rode it - used it for a few weeks - after that - which was long before he went for his new chair - i said NO - i dont like it - and best chair i felt was the 636 for him - he could have gotten that with ease - its a group 3 - its covered - its faster than what he has now - but no he stayed with the R 4000 -

got the 6mph motors - he though he was getting the 8 mph - but never confirmed which speed it was - - which i told him to ask to make sure what speed - - he was told - the good motors and he left it at that -

you figure - but i get blamed for it - afterwards - i try to help with solid advice - i can only offer it suggest it - etc, - the person needs to do the work and follow up and make sure it is what he wants etc, -

i may not be very well liked lately

[Burgerman]

Well you cant help most people. And also they wont learn anything. Too much trouble. So they sort of get what they deserve.

[expresso]

everyone does things differently and go about there lives there way - which is fine - we are all this way - Me You everyone --

its the same story over and over - i am not an expert on anything really - but if i do happen to know something - i can share it - if it helps someone else that great -
you though i was bad with learning to do this pack - or working out my computer issues etc, - haha - you have no idea - the same friend - not Quickiee -

always has computer issues - and cant - or dosnt want to learn to solve them himself - even after its shown to him how to do it in person many times over - a simple reboot - and go back to original config. - - there really is nothing to do other than reboot it - hit what ever F key to get the options and thats it - pick one option and wipe it back to the way you got it -

i have showed him over and over - write it down the steps - its 3 steps really - but yet - same story - now i am not any better either when i dont get something - but once i am shown and do it myself - i can redo the same procedure -

like the Pack i build with help - i am not a expert pack builder - i know that - but if i had to make the same pack again - same config. i do it no problem - and better next time also - now if i have to make a 12 volt pack - two of them etc, - i am back to not sure exactly and would ask for help again - but once i do it - i will know for next time -

i know i need to really know the reasons - 4p6s etc, etc, - i dont get it fully by just reading it off here - i need visuals - a physical person would be great but pictures etc, the way Scollard helped me - was Great -

anyway - i am no better than anyone else - but come on - you can do other things when you want to - why not 3 steps - reboot hit a F key - pick one option and enter - thats it - follow the screen -