Guns

[Burgerman]

I think average IQ for men/women is pretty much the same.

The average IQ scores between men and women have little variation. However, the variability of male scores is greater than that of females, resulting in more males than females in the top and bottom of the IQ distribution.

Wikipedia.

[Burgerman]

Here is a typical IQ test question.

The idea is that anyone CAN answer correctly. With even rudimentary numerical or language skills, ANYONE can answer every question correctly given the time to figure it out. The real question is how long it takes! Because there are far more multiple choice questions on an IQ test than there is time to answer them. The one with the highest IQ will answer the most correctly, in the 2 hours allowed.

4. Mary, who is sixteen years old, is four times as old as her brother. How old will Mary be when she is twice as old as her brother?
A 20
B 24
C 25
D 26
E 28

[Burgerman]

And in case you don't understand numbers, and don't have a language, there are what's called culture free tests:

[Burgerman]

In every case the answer is easily attainable by anyone, in time. But the faster your brain problem solves, the quicker you are at answering these and so complete more questions correctly.

In other words a true IQ test should test reasoning, not knowledge. So you cant pass a IQ test by learning a load of "stuff" as it wont help.

Test a few thousand people, and you get a bell curve. 100 is always the centre. And all test results are related to the bell distribution curve. The actual test score doesent matter. You really want the percentile score.

[ryanphinney]

Yes, we have lots of people incarcerated. But, we don't keep them incarcerated. We have a Catch and Release Program. About 80% of our crimes are committed by Convicted Felons. Oh, and it's illegal for them to own or possess firearms...

That is contradictory. At any given time, you have more people in prisons per 1000 population that any of the other country anywhere on the planet. Doesn't matter how many times you let them go and recapture.

No, it isn't contradictory, it is the problem with using statistics. You point at the number of people incarcerated, but do not mention the reasons they are incarcerated. We have far more people incarcerated for non-violent crimes than violent ones, and a great many for drug offenses. But, to incarcerate a new prisoner convicted of a non-violent drug offense, we are releasing persons convicted of violent felonies. And since they have just attended "Criminal College" on a Taxpayer-funded scholarship, when they re-offend they will take longer to get convicted again, and some other violent offender will be released to put them back in prison. Further, they will most likely not be using a "stolen" gun, but a smuggled one, or one obtained from a family member, but that family member will never be charged for that illegal action, because we don't enforce gun control laws currently in place. Or, we don't enforce them against criminals, only citizens with no other charges pending.

For instance, in the UK, if you commit and armed robbery with a gun, it's an additional sentence. We have that law, also, but we never enforce it. Our political system is hopelessly corrupted...

That's a specious and wholly delusional claim. There are others ways to murder someone, and when a person doesn't have a firearm, they tend to use those other means.

That's not true. Its EASY and happens fast, most people killed or injured are because someone shoots while in a hot headed temper. Or because they can. If they had to do it another way, or plan something, they cool off, or fail... Or the opportunity vanishes. That's why you have such a massive murder rate that is 5x higher than here however you wish to fiddle with the stats. Even if your opinion that we count murders differently is correct, it would make a small difference. But you are 5x more likely to end up dead (or your family are) however you look at it, than here in the overcrowded but almost gun free UK.

No, that is not true. I worked for Homicide, and personally reviewed over 3500 cases, while compiling a Database to track Gang Activity and Serial Offenders. Killing someone in a moment of passion is defined as Manslaughter. Murder requires Malice Aforethought, or the commission of a predicate Felony.. Most people shot in the US are shot during the commission of another crime, by an already illegal firearm. Law-abiding Citizens are required to apply for a Concealed Carry permit to carry a concealed firearm, and even then are limited to where they can carry them. Purchasing a firearm requires a Background check through a national database. The Myth that someone can walk into a store and buy a gun on a whim is specious and obviously false. Yet, if a law-abiding citizen with a permit and a legal firearm defends himself or a third party against a criminal, the "murder rate" ticks up one more number. It is called "Justifiable Homicide." As for relative risk, I don't feel safer with a gun, I am safer with a gun. Because I am trained and practiced in its use, and most criminals are not. I was a Combat Infantryman in my time in the US Army, and after that spent several years as a police officer, running toward danger, not away from it. I ended up in a wheelchair because of a bad driver. So, if you want to lower the death rate, control bad drivers and bad doctors and violent criminals, not guns. If you want to review statistics, below is a link to an article from the Washington Post. More officers are killed in traffic accidents than by gunshot. More citizens are killed in traffic accidents than by firearms also. Yet, no one seems outraged about those statistics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fac ... incidents/

Criminals kill on a whim, and they do so because they have no access to law enforcement, BECAUSE they are criminals. They do not care if guns are illegal, because they are already engaged in illegal activity, and there is no greater penalty for using a gun than any other means of carrying out the crime, so it stands to reason they will choose a gun. As a police officer, I regularly encountered fully automatic firearms, and those are illegal to all but military or law enforcement or those with a Federal Permit. But, offenders who have other charges are never charged for those violations. If I am committing an armed robbery with a fully automatic machine gun, I will be charged with armed robbery, but no gun offense at all. Gun control laws only work if they are enforced, and ours are only enforced against citizens not committing other crimes, and never against criminals committing other offenses.

You cannot just look at numbers and understand the true nature of a situation, or the true cause of a problem, because sometimes the numbers do not correlate or are coincidental.

So, gun control is a fiction used by Politicians who want to convince the electorate they want to fix a problem, without actually fixing the problem, so the electorate will continue to need them to fix the problem. Banning guns won't stop criminals, only citizens who obey the law. And you might want to study history a little concerning gun control, because the first measure any totalitarian government enacts is to disarm its populace. Switzerland is more armed than the US, per capita, as is Israel, yet they do not have the same problems with gun violence, because they control the misuse of firearms, rather than access to them. Switzerland also managed to not be attacked by the Nazi's, when every disarmed nation around them was targeted, wonder why?

By the way, Mexico has some very stringent gun control laws in existence, but their murder rate outpaces the US by a significant margin. Do you think their population feels safer not having guns?

[Burgerman]

If there were no guns in the US at all, its hard to see how that would not reduce gun deaths, and deaths!
US gun enthusiasts argument to massive problems with deaths is "more guns".

Yes better policing and control of guns helps. But if they are about and easy to find, you will always get for eg your US style school shootings. Which I noticed just happened again. Guns give wimpy losers a power trip. Guns give anyone that's non too bright, an easy way to act first and think it out later. No matter what spin you put on it.

If there were no cars, there would be less road deaths in the same way. Since you mentioned it. I see arguments and fights in bars or outside clubs, etc all the time. Sometimes riots. But here nobody gets killed. Yet every time I turn on the TV there's some more dead people - usually full of lead - in the US. That stuff doesn't happen in other civilised countries. Or if it does its maybe once every 10 years in Europe. Instead of seemingly weekly.

But banning guns in the US is a waste of time because that just leaves them in the hands of the retarded idiots, criminals etc and the country is already awash with them. Its now too late to do that.

Switzerland? They were expecting a problem, and were well prepared militarily, in many ways and made concessions to the Nazis to be useful to them. And so it was more trouble than it was worth to do so. Even so, they were on the list. Had little to nothing to do with the old fashioned rifle locked in the cupboard. Have a read. https://schwingeninswitzerland.wordpres ... itzerland/

[Sully]

You both have good points, However, Ben Franklin had his answer for this diccussion as foolws; " "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin

Safety is fleeting in any situation. I have no fear of either dying or my loss of liberty. I would not feel any more safe in GB that I do here in NC -- USA. "I" believe "I" would feel more suppressed. I live here in SE North Carolina an open carry state, that is every person who can "Legally" purchace a fire arm needs no further permit to carry their hand gun on their side openly (NOT CONCEILED) While there are often local misuses of guns of all types nearby 99.9% of them are shooting into a building or some other inanimate object. We do need to understand these idiots do get "punished" we rarely find out exactly what those people are actually charged with.

It is not simply the USA that is inundated with firearms, the whole planet is. You have had prohibitive gun laws in GB, yet there is still some gun crime. Laws do little or nothing to "PREVENT" crime. If they did there would be zero crimes committed. As a matter of fact crime "PREVENTION" would violate every private privacy and personal security "right" if it were exercized to the extent necessary to be absolutely 100% successful.

I would suggest that the folks who think this nation is full of killers, stop watching the TV Police drama programs. You are misinterpolating what you watch for entertainment for real life. IT IS NOT, it's make believe!

Old Benny Franklin was right, if all you Brits want to be weak sheeples and follow the Judas sheep go ahead; I'll stay right here where it is still legal to use what ever means necessary to protect myself and my family as well as my possessions. Police in both of our countries, have NO obligation to protect you! Do not fall into that abyss! They do have the obligation to arrest people who violate those law's the Police are sworn to protect. So it is the LAW the Police are sworn to protect not people! Most people do not understand that very simple principal.

[ryanphinney]

The operative phrase is "every time I turn on the TV."

You don't see what is happening, in it's entirety, you only see what someone wants you to see, and that tends to influence actions. If something happens all the time, everywhere, then it isn't really "news," is it? If you can't achieve fame, you can achieve infamy. We have failed to address the real threat that Islamic nations pose, we have failed to address crime, we have failed to find a reasonable response to "the War on Drugs," which started as a euphemism and has become a very real war. We ignore social programs that are destroying generations of people, and we have allowed our political system to become removed from the control of the people it governs.

I see the government as a much greater threat than any deranged lone gunman, and I would never trust it to solve any problem within society, since in its history, it has never solved a problem without creating a worse problem in its place. The one place in the US where there are no guns is in prison, but I don't think the residents feel safer there than outside with the plethora of guns.

If more than 10% of the population is intent on disobeying a law, that law is effectively unenforceable. That is reality, but our society seems intent on acting as though the world is what we want it to be, not what it really is, and ignore actual human nature as if a collective belief can reshape reality. Reality is that more kids are killed by reactions to vaccines than by gunshots, but the sacrifice is deemed necessary because lack of vaccines will create an even higher death toll. But THAT story will never be a feature on the news, because while it may be tragic, it cannot be changed. There are millions of people dying every year from diseases spread by mosquitoes, yet DDT is still banned when there is no evidence of any medical problem, OR environmental problem ever arising from its use. That story didn't make the news either...

When you watch the news, don't just accept what they are saying, ask yourself WHY they are saying it, because objective journalism died in the 1940's, and every media outlet has an agenda.

[Burgerman]

It is not simply the USA that is inundated with firearms, the whole planet is. You have had prohibitive gun laws in GB, yet there is still some gun crime.

There is so little, that even an air gun accident makes the news for days here! They really are rare. With a few exceptions below:

What there is mainly comes from blacks. And the same for knife crime. You have many more black people in your population than we do. So that problem will definitely be worse. 2.7% of the UK are black. 14% of the prison population is black. Same pattern as the US, and everywhere else. Same pattern of ghettos, poverty, drugs and violence too. Contrary to popular leftist/media/government bias, this is not racism. Its reality. However they mostly sweep it under the carpet, just like the muslim problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ ... ed_Kingdom info in UK.

Reality is that more kids are killed by reactions to vaccines than by gunshots, but the sacrifice is deemed necessary because lack of vaccines will create an even higher death toll. But THAT story will never be a feature on the news, because while it may be tragic, it cannot be changed. There are millions of people dying every year from diseases spread by mosquitoes, yet DDT is still banned when there is no evidence of any medical problem, OR environmental problem ever arising from its use. That story didn't make the news either...

Thats because ON AVERAGE less suffer or die WITH the vaccines... Thats not true of guns no matter how many ways you try and make a case for them. You may FEEL safer, but the stats on deaths from murders of any means, or guns directly, are absolutely clear by many hundreds of percent. But its still too late to fix now regardless. Again a red herring. This has nothing to do with having a gun in every draw meaning its too easy to get hot heads full of lead!

[Burgerman]

The problem with DDT isnt that it poisons people, although its thought it may be harmful, but on the wildlife and food-chain. Should it be banned? Its a considered balance and do whats best decision. It may be better to use it in moderation? Thats a government, science issue to decide. And again this has nothing to do with having thousands of guns loose all over the place. Forget TV, look at ANY stats, from any organisation, other than the pro gun lobby, and they all show the same thing.

__________ wiki viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4279&p=90118#p90118

DDT is a persistent organic pollutant that is readily adsorbed to soils and sediments, which can act both as sinks and as long-term sources of exposure affecting organisms.[7] Depending on conditions, its soil half life can range from 22 days to 30 years. Routes of loss and degradation include runoff, volatilization, photolysis and aerobic and anaerobic biodegradation. Due to hydrophobic properties, in aquatic ecosystems DDT and its metabolites are absorbed by aquatic organisms and adsorbed on suspended particles, leaving little DDT dissolved in the water. Its breakdown products and metabolites, DDE and DDD, are also persistent and have similar chemical and physical properties.[1] DDT and its breakdown products are transported from warmer areas to the Arctic by the phenomenon of global distillation, where they then accumulate in the region's food web.[52]

Because of its lipophilic properties, DDT can bioaccumulate, especially in predatory birds.[53] DDT, DDE and DDD magnify through the food chain, with apex predators such as raptor birds concentrating more chemicals than other animals in the same environment. They are stored mainly in body fat. DDT and DDE are resistant to metabolism; in humans, their half-lives are 6 and up to 10 years, respectively. In the United States, these chemicals were detected in almost all human blood samples tested by the Centers for Disease Control in 2005, though their levels have sharply declined since most uses were banned.[54] Estimated dietary intake has declined,[54] although FDA food tests commonly detect it.[55]

Marine macroalgae (seaweed) help reduce soil toxicity by up to 80% within six weeks.[56]
Effects on wildlife and eggshell thinning

DDT is toxic to a wide range of living organisms, including marine animals such as crayfish, daphnids, sea shrimp and many species of fish. DDE caused eggshell thinning and population declines in multiple North American and European bird of prey species.[57] Eggshell thinning lowers the reproductive success rate of certain bird species by causing egg breakage and embryo deaths. DDE-related eggshell thinning is considered a major reason for the decline of the bald eagle,[14] brown pelican,[58] peregrine falcon and osprey.[1] However, birds vary in their sensitivity to these chemicals.[7] Birds of prey, waterfowl and song birds are more susceptible than chickens and related species. DDE appears to be more potent than DDT.[1] Even in 2010, California condors that feed on sea lions at Big Sur that in turn feed in the Palos Verdes Shelf area of the Montrose Chemical Superfund site exhibited continued thin-shell problems. Scientists with the Ventana Wildlife Society and others study and remediate the condors' problems.[59][60]

The biological thinning mechanism is not entirely understood, but strong evidence indictates that p,p'-DDE inhibits calcium ATPase in the membrane of the shell gland and reduces the transport of calcium carbonate from blood into the eggshell gland. This results in a dose-dependent thickness reduction.[1][61][62][63] Other evidence indicates that o,p'-DDT disrupts female reproductive tract development, later impairing eggshell quality.[64] Multiple mechanisms may be at work, or different mechanisms may operate in different species.[1] Some studies show that although DDE levels have fallen dramatically, eggshell thickness remains 10–12 percent thinner than before DDT was first used.[65]

[Burgerman]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... rs-10-days

10 days, no murder in one city is a record?

It AVERAGES 52 in London.

Theres 8 million people in london, and 8 million in new york.
Here is a list of all the people murdered in london 2014:

1 Dean MAYLEY 24 Feb 7, 2014 Ealing, London 2,014
2 Babafemi JUNAID 22 Feb 7, 2014 Lambeth, London 2,014
3 Basel AGHABRA 19 Feb 3, 2014 Westminster, London Detection 2,014
4 Maria DUQUE-TUNJANO 48 Jan 31, 2014 Kensington and Chelsea, London 2,014
5 Milena Khan KHAN 27 Jan 28, 2014 Newham, London Detection 2,014
6 Anopan VAGESWARAN 5 Jan 9, 2014 Harrow, London Detection 2,014
7 Nathaban VAGESWARAN Jan 9, 2014 Harrow, London Detection 2,014

And only 1 name is a white English name. And even if we include ALL deaths, inc Homicide rates include murder, manslaughter, corporate manslaughter and infanticide offences etc, it still totals under 100.

Heres the list for new york... A RECORD LOW year there.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-c ... UI20150101

True the data may be collected differently yada yada but its not exactly a small difference we are talking about here! You can tap dance around the figures all you like, but you wont get close to closing that gap! You are saying this is all lies? I can get similar stats from dozens of organizations. You really think its safer in new York with your guns?

Not saying getting rid of guns if it was now even possible, would cure it, but it would certainly go some way. And yes the black culture/iq/whatever doesn't help.

[ryanphinney]

The problem with DDT isnt that it poisons people, although its thought it may be harmful, but on the wildlife and food-chain. Should it be banned? Its a considered balance and do whats best decision.

The science against DDT was bad science, even back during the hearings, and it hasn't gotten better with age. Want another look, watch this movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1337435/

If we still had malaria in the US, we'd be using DDT. And we may bring it back due to the Zika Virus. That is the danger with allowing the government to decide what is best for everyone - the government makes decisions based on politics, the best interests of themselves, not the interests of everyone.

[Burgerman]

Well that may be true.Its banned here too. But we have no mosquito's to speak of. I don't see what its got to do with guns? Maybe your gun lobby could propose that guns save lives by shooting mosquito's!

[popschief]

Bug-A-Salt http://bugasalt.com/collections/shop

bp

[ryanphinney]

DDT has nothing to do with guns, directly. In my opinion, neither does crime...

It is an example of the government not being trustworthy with the entirety of the public good, and the necessity of being able to resist its oppression.

In fact, in the UK the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 makes some speech illegal. In this very thread, your statements regarding IQ and criminal trends among minorities would be sufficient to get you arrested and held for trial, subject to a penalty of 3 years imprisonment and/or a fine. By the way, that the statements may be true is NOT an affirmative defense against such a charge. Even if you can prove such statements true, you can still be convicted, because the burden of proof lies in the mind of the offended, not in the intent of the accused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_spee ... ed_Kingdom

In the US, Hillary Clinton, as Secretary of State for the US, approved a UN Resolution which requires criminal penalties for "Hate Speech" very similar to this. Ironically, any such law passed in the US would be immediately declared invalid, because it violates the 1st amendment to the US Constitution. So, we have a US government official approving a UN Resolution with which the US cannot possibly be in compliance.

And she may well be our next President.

The people of the UK can peacefully resist government oppression. But, there are guns in the UK, a significant number of them. They are just completely under the control of the government. That concept, to me, is far more frightening than my fellow citizens being armed.

[Burgerman]

In fact, in the UK the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 makes some speech illegal. In this very thread, your statements regarding IQ and criminal trends among minorities would be sufficient to get you arrested and held for trial, subject to a penalty of 3 years imprisonment and/or a fine. By the way, that the statements may be true is NOT an affirmative defense against such a charge. Even if you can prove such statements true, you can still be convicted, because the burden of proof lies in the mind of the offended, not in the intent of the accused.

Not the IQ question or statement. That is well known by the establishment. The are universities that have papers sying the same thing the world over. The leftist may not LIKE it but they cant change the facts. Or lock up researchers or publishers. Thats not hate speech. If someone wishes to take me to court for that good luck to them. And likewise this latest anti muslim word, Islamophobia is just another leftist attempt to shut down all reasoned discussion that goes against their agenda. Its not a "phobia" if they really do want you dead. And they tell us this themselves! Its the result of logical reasoning.

Now the very idea that you can legally discriminate against someone for sexuality/race is wrong. That should be illegal. Even so you can control what people say or do, but not how they think.

As for beliefs/religious "rights" being protected then that's plain crazy (literally). Why should someones imaginary friend/religion get any respect. A straight jacket? Probably. It certainly should not be part of any law. And as long as they keep it to themselves and it has no affect on society or me I dont care. But it always does. For eg its rather trivial to show that muslims are highly dangerous, more problems at work, and that they demand many extra special allowances beyond the rest of the wests normal standard and laws. Islam is incompatible with the western world. And even incompatible with 3/4 of the muslim world. Look at them right now in the middle east. The US and others are fighting to take back LAND taken by Isis. But they dont care. Isis and islam is not about "land" but an ideology that wants you dead or muslim worldwide. So sorry but they deserve no respect. No protection.

burden of proof lies in the mind of the offended, not in the intent of the accused.

Muslims are offended by everything. Political correctness means we go out of our way to modify our language, customs, laws, even cartoons and news reporting, to not offend them. So at what point does your claim cease to be true? I am offended by muslims! However being gay, athiest, christian, jewish especially, ALL offends them. So everything about you offends them already. Thats why the stab, kill, rape, explode, shoot, drive trucks over you, crash planes, blow up trains/cars/etc all over the world daily.

This is why we need to get all these leftist/progressives out of media and power asap. And why there's a rise in the far right, in every country across the EU.

[Burgerman]

Bug-A-Salt http://bugasalt.com/collections/shop

bp

Guns I agree with.
The gun lobby would want to lobby for a .50 cal for that job. Claiming it increases accuracy on small bugs.

[Lord Chatterley]

Hate speech laws are illegal in themselves.

LC

[Burgerman]

How, and how can we stop them?
Did you see this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7882953.stm

Even though he eventually proved it was all true, in court, so the leftists can no longer call him racist. And he is now allowed into the UK. Its still disgusting that they even tried. They have an agenda.

The establishment will need to ban all the right wing political parties and anyone that's honest about Muslims including many Muslims THEMSELVES! And all the anti immigration parties currently on the rise against the Muslim problem, across most of the EU. All to appease the easily offended Muslims and politically idealist multiculturalism/progressives/leftists currently in power. They don't like the truth... And calling people like Geert racist to shut him down doesn't work.

[Burgerman]

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2016/10/ ... t=slh&or=2

Perhaps all 4 to 6 year olds should have hand guns issued in year 1 for' self defense' to make every play group safer... Maybe younger? Some of the teens in the ghettos are about the same mental age.

List of many hundreds of school shootings in the US:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... ted_States

List of all school shootings in the UK:
Theres just 1. (In Dunblane Scotland) 20 years ago by a 46 year old.

The US list also EXCLUDES all of these: Incidents that occurred during wars or police actions, as well as murder-suicides by rejected suitors or estranged spouses, and suicides or suicide attempts involving only one person. Mass shootings by staff of schools that involve only other employees are covered at workplace killings.




Guns safer? I am sure there's some convoluted way the facts can be twisted out of any recognition by the pro gun lobby. But seriously its just not! Don't tell me they used knives or cars instead, because that's also easy to prove wrong! Guns make it so easy. So they do it.

[Sully]

Let this liberal discuss this first me and my thoughts;"Quote" Islam is incompatible with the western world. And even incompatible with 3/4 of the muslim world.
Yes but no Nation makes it incompatible, but but it is incompatible due to the Quaran itself, by its own verbage, not any detractor of the muslim folks. So how can any National law consider distain for that verbage when it is distainful in itself.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Without a governing document to follow there is no universal protection in GB that can be held up as a directional guide in law making. Any group of individuals or in fact one strong man type such as a "Putin, Mao, or a Hitler can legally direct your rights as a Nation to admit or not any segment of a particular tribal belief system. Islam is Tribalism in its worst form.

Laws that try to do this in the USA can be passed, but if the legality is questioned the probem is brought to the Supreme Court and that document called our Constitution becomes the guilde to what is Legal to write into common criminal law or not. You do not have such a guide just a jumble of ancient documents never formally voted into by the citizen's or even your Chamber of Minister's as the guiding law of your land.

Since we have a questionable Candidate running for our Nation's Presidency, I predict if he should win, he may well challenge our Constitution in many, many ways. However, I cannot predict the outcome of this currently imaginary Political Constitutional challenge but I do guarantee that my single meager vote will not be in his favor.

The gun issue is simply a moot point, aside from reducing the size of legal magazines for semi automatic rifles which I do heartedly agree with all the current laws are adequate in this US of A. However, these laws as currently written and legally passed must be enforced, and charged as indictment in every instance when, and where the criminal laws are violated.

To change one of the Amendments it takes a unanimous vote of both houses of Congress signed by the President, then sent to every State to be placed on their adgenda and must be passed passsed by a 2/3 majority of the- 50 States. There is NO time line required by these States to pass any such Law. Since the "Right to carry and bear arms comes from The US founding document our Constitution this procedure is of necessity a difficult one to pass, not something to be done lightly.

The restiction of speech in such as you describe in GB has no such guarantee as the First Amendment to the U S Constitution, and unless a person has directed hateful speech towards an individual, that results in bodily harm to that specific individual he cannot be charged with a crime. A physically harrmful result must occur, and directly shown to be the cause of an individual's bodily harm. Such charge as a a hate crime is an additional charge to the physical harm causedby that speech. (assault or murder) Simply stating statistics or reiterating an opinion of another from an accepted document, or publishing such a document cannot bring an independent charge by itself. Speaking your opinion is also immune, if it was Not, the Quaran could be charged and banned as hateful.

[Burgerman]

As could the many bibles...

A physically harrmful result must occur, and directly shown to be the cause of an individual's bodily harm.

Heres a question. IF the above is true, why is it OK, and not against your constitution, for cult members to saw bits off babies genitals with a sharp rock/ knife?

Or damaging their brains as they grow up, in a way that leaves them with a lifetime of bewilderment and a confused/distorted view of reality, arguably even worse because that makes them do the same to their future children's genitals. And rinse and repeat... Where is the child's freedom protection, as they are especially vulnerable to this type of abuse?

IF your document was worth anything it should be trivial to stop this. An have about 100 million physical damage, 270 million mental abuse cases with actual brain structure changes resulting from the early brainwashing of plastic young brains to try... That should slow the courts down for a week or so.

[ryanphinney]

Perhaps all 4 to 6 year olds should have hand guns issued in year 1 for' self defense' to make every play group safer... Maybe younger? Some of the teens in the ghettos are about the same mental age.

Actually, no one is ever "issued" a gun, we have the right to bear arms, not the requirement. It's called "freedom," and was a very popular idea at one time. You know, where you get to decide for yourself what you will do, and what you won't do? Maybe your idea of safety makes it perfectly acceptable to live enslaved and at the mercy of your government, but there are people who feel that a life of slavery is worse than the chance of being killed. In fact, I'm one of them.

And in case you didn't know, the 14 year old suspect was not legally entitled to own or carry a firearm. He violated the law in doing so. And yes, I know, if there were no guns, it wouldn't be a problem. So, you just have to get rid of every gun ON EARTH! Because the reason we have guns in the US, is because there are guns everywhere else. We didn't invent guns, we just improved them. But so long as there are guns anyplace on this planet, they can and will be smuggled into the US, and get into the hands of criminals or tyrants, and we will be in danger from them.

If the existence of privately-owned firearms caused unlawful shootings, well, there are over 300 million privately owned firearms in the US, so there shouldn't be any people left alive. The shootings that do occur are tragic, but they hardly represent the worst threat to the health and safety of people in the US. In fact, they don't come close to it. All the deaths from unlawful shootings in the entire history of the US don't even come close to the deaths caused by governments against their own people. They don't equal the deaths caused by the US government against US citizens. But YOU decide this is a massive threat because that is what you see on TV, and you never question WHY that is the only thing you see. You are more scared of guns, apparently, than I am, and I've been shot at on numerous occasions.

When I hear someone propose gun prohibition, I hear someone saying they want the people to be unable to resist tyranny. Because THAT is all gun prohibition accomplishes. Tyranny is far more dangerous than an armed insane person, because tyranny is organized, and if someone tells you "it can't happen here," then they are deluded. That was the exact thing they thought in every place it happened, right up until it happened.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

Hell, the ban on DDT has managed to kill over 1 million people every year from malaria alone, and has caused permanent brain damage in 1/3 of the children in Africa and Asia from fever. And THAT was an intentional act by a government that KNEW the effect it would have, and still maintains the ban to this day. But you think I should trust my safety to the same government that did this?

Heres a question. IF the above is true, why is it OK, and not against your constitution, for cult members to saw bits off babies genitals with a sharp rock/ knife?

What cult members? Hebrews? Doctors? I assume you are referring to male circumcision, a practice widely accepted in the US and UK and many other developed nations. Or did you mean some other body mutilation?

You need to seriously question exactly how much control you think should be imposed on every living human being, and exactly who should impose it, and what specific controls should be imposed. Or, how about we let people decide for themselves how they will live, so long as they don't interfere with you doing the same, and punish the few people that cross the line so they don't cross it again. Because if you start counting up philosophical belief systems, Atheism will be way down there toward the bottom of the list. The US Constitution protects any individual from having a religion forced on them, and that is a step up from most countries in the world, so I'd say it's doing an admirable job, all things considered.

[Burgerman]

Long post full of red herrings, and non related stuff, excuses and then:

What cult members? Hebrews? Doctors? I assume you are referring to male circumcision, a practice widely accepted in the US and UK and many other developed nations. Or did you mean some other body mutilation?

Yes Cults. Thats what religions are. Cults all based on imaginary sky gods. Or sun gods, or whatever. Its child abuse. What happened to the childs rights? Yes that was the MUTILATION. His right not to have his genitals or brain permanently damaged? Its only "accepted" BECAUSE of the systematic brainwashing each generation gives its offspring.

Or, how about we let people decide for themselves how they will live, so long as they don't interfere with you doing the same,

Full agreement. That includes kids having bits sawn off, where were their rights? Were they given the choice? And getting shot at while in school... Hence controls. And no, it doesn't make any difference how many other dangers there are (red herrings).

and punish the few people that cross the line so they don't cross it again.

All for it.

Because if you start counting up philosophical belief systems, Atheism will be way down there toward the bottom of the list.

Atheists don't cut up or brain damage kids, force garbage to be taught in science lessons, send nutters worldwide to "spread the word" causing more misery to previously sane people. You cant stop atheists for not doing anything! They are not on a list. They may well do the opposite however, to try and STOP such damage. If I banged on your door and as a sane person I wouldn't, and left you a leaflet it would be blank! Thats what atheists believe. And I wouldn't want tax exempt status either.

The US Constitution protects any individual from having a religion forced on them

Absolutely not!!! Ask all those that ended up brain damaged with a crazy distorted view of the world, and who were taught creation "science" in schools, with a bit of anatomy missing if it has affected them. And if they had a choice.

[Burgerman]

You need to seriously question exactly how much control you think should be imposed on every living human being, and exactly who should impose it, and what specific controls should be imposed.

OK. If someone or a group, came up to you, and held you down and cut off a bit of your penis with a knife.

Would you:
a. EXPECT the law to go after the attacker?
b. SIT THERE and decide that we shouldn't impose that much control on him/them?

And now comes some convoluted excuse for the delusional cult members actions!
Theres NO difference.

Actually a small one in that the delusional parent does it to a defenseless trusting child. No different to cutting a finger or ear lobe or something off. Its simple child abuse. If you DO see a difference, then you also went through the brain damaging process as a child. Hence you see the world with god stained glasses. A distorted view of reality and you too cannot help it. THAT is why religion is dangerous.

These delusional people also want to cut bits off people. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ Especially anyone that's not them. Or the correct type of them... THIS is the result of allowing religious "freedoms".

[ryanphinney]

OK. If someone or a group, came up to you, and held you down and cut off a bit of your penis with a knife.

Someone did. It was a Physician, so I guess the Medical Profession is now a cult...

I was born in 1965, and at that time in the US, it was common practice to circumcise male infants. No religious belief involved, as my parents were Christian, and that is not a religious practice among Christians, that I am aware of anyway. They said it was medically preferable, though that was probably bullshit. Maybe they just wanted to make more money. As for "brain damage," perhaps you should investigate how many people communist governments have murdered, and then try and explain how that counts as a religion. "Cult," maybe, I always thought socialists and communists believed people were different than they really are, which is why socialism constantly fails.

If a group tried to do it now, well, I think we have already established that I am armed.

Religion doesn't create evil, humans have never needed an outside influence to do that, and we have excelled at doing evil throughout our history. Do you really think these extremists actually believe the religious dogma they espouse? Now who is being delusional?

THIS is the result of allowing religious "freedoms".

AH, so you advocate censorship and slavery, you just want it directed the way you think is proper? I am not religious, I do not attend any church, and have no intention of doing so in the future. But, I do not have the hubris to assume that I am always right, everyone else MUST be wrong, and that such makes it acceptable to use violence to exercise control over them. Because, make no mistake, when you make anything illegal, you are advocating the use of force, deadly if necessary, to prevent that activity. I don't think it is remotely possible to stop someone from thinking something short of stopping them from thinking. And religious beliefs are thoughts. I am also not willing to raise all the children of these "cult members" you plan to deal with in legal manner. So you should practice your child-rearing skills, because I think you're going to be a busy fellow...

Someone can believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy if they choose, and so long as they leave me alone, I couldn't care less.If you can prove child abuse, then file charges and do so. I was circumcised, but I have no memory of it, since I was still an infant. There was no permanent mental scarring, since I couldn't retain memories at that time, and my equipment worked perfectly normally until paralysis. Before you say some religions forbid medical treatment, remember that forcing medical treatment is a slippery slope indeed.

The same argument you raise regarding religious freedom could be applied to any freedom, because there will always be those who abuse the freedom they have. Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom to labor, freedom to own property, etc. When one person believes he knows what's best for all other people, and is willing to use force to impose those beliefs, well, that's tyranny.

I can say I am not a fan of it, and you should probably avoid my door when selling it.

[Burgerman]

Religion doesn't create evil, humans have never needed an outside influence to do that, and we have excelled at doing evil throughout our history. Do you really think these extremists actually believe the religious dogma they espouse? Now who is being delusional?

You fell for the leftist/media political correctness. Of COURSE they believe it. There are moderate Muslims, but sadly there's no moderate version of Islam. And no moderate koran. Thats why they endlessly blow themselves up. And you with them. They are, like xstians, brainwashed from birth. Yes an sane person/athiest can do evil things but generally dont. The least violent countries are the least religious ones. Again easy to demonstrate. But to make a good person do evil things takes religion.

As for cutting up kids, your parents were christian, and that's a cult just like all the rest. You probably consider Scientologists, moonies, mormons are cults. A cult is any religion smaller than yours. And there's hundreds of current ones to choose from.

And no, you cant tell people what to think. Where you draw the line is where these cults affect the sane non cultist people. And that's exactly what all religion does. Just because a lot of people have some religion or other in your country, doesn't make it right. It just means more people are wrong. At least you had the choice to be a non believer. In Muslim countries the penalty for that is death. Before you say its just a few extremists consider this:

Some facts about muslims/islam http://nfse.co.uk/?m=ShowNews&group=1&show=4795#4795

Worldwide the UN estimates there are:

1.6 billion Christians.
15 million Jews.
1.4 billion Muslims (Islam).


Terrorist attacks since 9/11 worldwide are:

Christians=0
Jews=0
Islam=25,544

The ‘religion’ of Love and Peace doesn't seem to live up to it's claim.

Not one single Islamic country, state, government allows a non-Muslim to be a president, premier, king, prince or leader. It is strictly forbidden in all their constitution type government documents whether following Sharia or not. It is specifically addressed.

More Muslims have been killed, raped, tortured, maimed, starved and displaced by other Muslims than any other force or cause.

The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim
The Beltway Snipers were Muslims
The Fort Hood Shooter was a Muslim
The underwear Bomber was a Muslim
The U-S.S. Cole Bombers were Muslims
The Madrid Train Bombers were Muslims
The Bafi Nightclub Bombers were Muslims
The London Subway Bombers were Muslims
The Moscow Theatre Attackers were Muslims
The Boston Marathon Bombers were Muslims
The Pan-Am flight #93 Bombers were Muslims
The Air France Entebbe Hijackers were Muslims
The Iranian Embassy Takeover, was by Muslims
The Beirut U.S. Embassy bombers were Muslims
The Libyan U.S. Embassy Attack was by Musiims
The Buenos Aires Suicide Bombers were Muslims
The Israeli Olympic Team Attackers were Muslims
The Kenyan U.S, Embassy Bombers were Muslims
The Saudi, Khobar Towers Bombers were Muslims
The Beirut Marine Barracks bombers were Muslims
The Besian Russian School Attackers were Muslims
The first World Trade Center Bombers were Muslims
The Bombay & Mumbai India Attackers were Muslims
The Achille Lauro Cruise Ship Hijackers were Muslims
The September 11th 2001 Airline Hijackers were Muslims'



Think of this:

Buddhists living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Christians = No Problem
Hindus living with Jews = No Problem
Christians living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Confucians = No Problem
Confusians living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Sikhs = No Problem
Sikhs living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Christians = No Problem
Christians living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Confucians = No Problem
Confusians living with Hindus = No Problem

However:

Muslims living with Hindus = Problem
Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem
Muslims living with Christians = Problem
Muslims living with Jews = Problem
Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem
Muslims living with Baha'is = Problem
Muslims living with Shintos = Problem
Muslims living with Atheists = Problem
MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS = BIG PROBLEM


Which leads to:

They’re not happy in Gaza
They're not happy in Egypt
They're not happy in Libya
They're not happy in Morocco
They're not happy in Iran
They're not happy in Iraq
They're not happy in Yemen
They're not happy in Afghanistan
They're not happy in Pakistan
They're not happy in Syria
They're not happy in Lebanon
They're not happy in Nigeria
They're not happy in Kenya
They're not happy in Sudan



So, where are they happy?

They're happy in Australia
They're happy in England
They're happy in Belgium
They're happy in France
They're happy in Italy
They're happy in Germany
They're happy in Sweden
They're happy in the USA & Canada
They're happy in Norway & India
They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic!

Who do they blame? Not Islam... Not their leadership... Not themselves... THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!! And they want to change the countries they're happy in, to be like the countries they came from where they were unhappy.

Islamic Jihad: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
ISIS: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Qaeda: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Taliban: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hamas: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hezbollah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Boko Haram: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Nusra: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abu Sayyaf: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Badr: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Muslim Brotherhood: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Lashkar-e-Taiba: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Palestine Liberation Front: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Ansaru: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Jemaah Islamiyah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abdullah Azzam Brigades: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

AND A LOT MORE!!!!!!!

What muslims are told to do by their koran:

Kill any one who insults Islam or Moham-mad. (Koran.33;57-61).
Kill all Muslims who leave Islam. (Koran.2;217/4;89/Bukhari.9;84-57).
Koran can not be doubted. (Koran.2;1).
Islam is the only acceptable religion. (Koran.3;85).
Muslims must fight (jihad) to non-Muslims, even if they don't want to. (Koran.2;216).
We the non-Muslims are pigs and apes. (Koran. 2;62-65/Koran.5;59-60/Koran.7;166).
We the non-Muslims cannot be friends with Muslims. (Koran.5;51).
We the non-Muslims sworn enemies of Muslims and Islam. (Koran.4;101).
We the non-Muslims can be raped as sex slave. (Koran.4;3 & 24/5;89/23;5/33;50/58;3/70;30).
We the non-Muslims the vilest of creatures deserving no mercy. (Koran.98;6).
Muslim must terrorized us (non-Muslims). (Koran.8;12 &59-60/ Bukhari.4;52;220).
Muslims must strike terror into non-Muslims hearts. (Koran.8;60).
Muslims must lie to us (non-Muslims) to strengthen and spread Islam. (Koran.3;28?16;106).
Muslims are allowed to behead us (non_Muslims) (Koran.47;4).
Muslims are guaranteed to go to heaven if they kill us (non-Muslims). (Koran.9;111).
Marrying and divorcing pre-pubescent children is OK. (Koran.65;4).
Wife beating is OK. (Koran.4;34).
Raping wives is OK. (Koran.2;223).
Proving rape requires 4 (four) male Muslim witnesses. (Koran.24;13).
Muslims are allowed to crucify and amputate us (non-Muslims). Koran.8;12/47;4).


What does that tell you about islam?

[Burgerman]

As for your doctor, if he did that he isn't a cultist, he is a child abuser and whatever the cops in the US call someone that cuts parts off someone without permission from them. He has an excuse though, his "permission" came from your parents. They allowed and instructed this. Although he may well be a cultist too to consider it. And did so with the full permission of your parents with no medical reason, just like millions of others in your country.

Where do you suppose the idea of doing this to healthy kids came from? (is the fog clearing yet?) And why wasn't it seen as the obvious abuse, that any non afflicted rational thinking sane person sees it as? Remember everyone is born an atheist. It takes a parent or another believer to indoctrinate a child's trusting plastic & suggestible mind. And its then screwed forever. It takes a screwed up mind to take a knife to a healthy innocent trusting child and cut a bit off! Hence rinse and repeat. Generation after generation.

What can I say. Wake up! Muslims are not like your tame religions that now tap dance around, and ignore the nasty bits in the bible. Muslims will still kill you given a chance. Take a good look at the way they behave in their own countries.

[ryanphinney]

I will not try to dispute the behavior of religious zealots. The medical profession believed circumcision to be "healthy" at that time. Some still recommend it. I won't try to defend that, doctors are often wrong, and many are more businessman than concerned medical professional. But it was not a religious practice, in my case.

I won't try to defend all the pain, violence, and misery caused by religious zealots, either.

But even you should recognize exactly why many people would choose to be armed, to have the option of protecting themselves and their families, because trusting a government to protect you from dangerous people is not a wise proposition. My government is actually increasing the threat to me and mine every day.

So is yours, they just don't give you the option of protecting yourself.

[Burgerman]

Then you need some serious gun control organising. My dad has a shotgun. 2 in fact. He has to have medical records, 2 forms sponsoring him for good character by doctors/teachers etc. And a zero criminal record. And has it inspected regularly at home in a steel locked gun box, that by law must be bolted to the wall with non removable fixings. It is not allowed to be transported to or from private land, and he must have written permission to be on that land with the land owners permission. In a case. In the boot. (trunk?). Random checks, regularly, and he had his gun licence removed by the police when he failed a drink drive test.

Its so involved that only people bothering to shoot for sport, or competition ever go through it. That's why we only ever had one school shooting ever. And why the cops in the main do not ever feel the need to be armed. There are almost no guns around. Its a massive fight to get hold of one. And as you say, culture too. Here, almost every shooting when they do happen makes the news. And although they never report it as such (back to political correct bull again) is black on black/white. And they keep that info quiet because it would cause more real racism...

Over here, I don't know anyone that is circumcised. Its only ever done if you are Jewish, or have a medical need. And that's not exactly common. So doing so as a matter of course for "imagined" health reasons is still a left over from religious woo woo. Religion cannot help but interfere with your sex life. It seems fixated on it... Or in fact your life. If you allow it to do so. It tries, and fails dismally in the UK. Its lost its power. There are less than 5 percent of regular churchgoers here,. and those are mostly old. That figure is about 90% in the US!

https://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpr ... =592&h=361 Theres only really 1 xstian church in the UK, and that has almost fell off the world.

https://whyevolutionistrue.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/screen-shot-2016-01-14-at-1-34-54-pm.png?w=592&h=361

Fortunately the sane people are gradually taking over!