LiFe(Y)Po4 system: type, charger, balancer

[Burgerman]

What Ah total? 60?
What voltage? (4s?) So 12v (14.400v charge)

One question: I got the Coolice 575W @ 12V PSU; it has TWO inputs for the grid – which one do I use?

Its 24v so both.

[Burgerman]

This zip contains 2 presets.

One for charging or discharging single cells. No balance connections.
One for a 4S 12V 60Ah LiFePO4 pack with balance connections.

[HotColors]

I have been flying electric RC helicopters for more than 10 years. And nitro 10 years before that. Ive used a lot of different chargers with many different battery chemistries. You cannot go wrong with the charger that was recommended. I have 2 DPL8 chargers which is just two PL8 chargers in one case. I have been using the FMA chargers since 2012. They are top of the line. I hope to use my chargers to charge my BM3 battery. It will work if I make a 6s pack on one channel and a 7s pack on the other, im just not sure if it will balance as a 13s pack. Just have not gotten that far yet, my batteries are caught in the typhoons.

Mike

[Burgerman]

Thats exactly what I do.
Although not sure you can do that with both chargers in one case. Unless you disconnect the packs physically. Both my power supplies are floating.

[HotColors]

The DPL8 or Dual PL8 is just two chargers in the same case. Like the Hyperion Duo line was. With the Hyperion I could connect a 6S pack to each of the 2 channels of the charger and tell the charger to balance the pack as a single 12s pack. I use two packs in series each helicopter and i wanted to make sure the were both balanced together. I just don't know if the DPL8 can balance as one pack even though you have 2 packs on the charger.

Mike

[HotColors]

Here is a picture of my Hyperion Box. It has a 60A 24v power supply mounted to the underside of the plate. I have two more of these boxes each with one DPL8 and the same 60A power supply. I don't really use the Hyperions anymore. I use it in my hobby room for flight packs and transmitters.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxR78V8__DZPallObTlyaGhVZDg/view?usp=drivesdk

[Burgerman]

Very organised!
I fly helis badly for 15 years... They got easier and heavier in that time and better built. And control line/free flight in the 60s as a kid, and RC everything since then. And also pulsejet powered deltas, turbines etc but nothing scale, just pure performance. Also nitro and now electric pylon racers and hot gliders.

I use two packs in series each helicopter and i wanted to make sure the were both balanced together. I just don't know if the DPL8 can balance as one pack even though you have 2 packs on the charger.

I feel sure they have a common ground. So will make smoke! Its why I use 2x PL8 as both are floating. To find out is easy. Test resistance between the two negative output terminals. Should be all but non existent.

[HotColors]

It appears by looking at the manual, that the DPL8 is two completely seperate chargers in one case. There is no resistance between the output terminals either. Makes a little sense because it has two seperate inputs for power too. But I still do not think it will do what I want. Although it has a feature that allows you to charge 2 of the same chemistry batteries using only one of its screens. You use a cable from one pc port to the other pc port and define a master and slave. From there you can charge batteries with different cell counts but the same chemistry from one screen. You only have to start one side instead of both. I am just not sure if it will balance both packs respective to each other.

Mike

[HotColors]

Very organised!
I fly helis badly for 15 years... They got easier and heavier in that time and better built. And control line/free flight in the 60s as a kid, and RC everything since then. And also pulsejet powered deltas, turbines etc but nothing scale, just pure performance. Also nitro and now electric pylon racers and hot gliders.

I Started flying Robbe as a fellow by the name Gary Wright taught me set-up and some basic flying skills.and he was a Robbe guy. After 3-4 years with the Robbe stuff I went to Miniature Aircraft because they offered me a field Rep position and I wanted to pay it forward, that's what the hobby is really all about. I flew the MA stuff for 2 years then Align came along and offers a field Rep position and free equipment, I have been flying Align ever since. I do a lot of beta testing for them and even some design work on the Dominator series of Helis. But I do not and will not use the Align flybarless units. All radio equipment and flybarless stuff is Mikado, they have the best system going right now, its amazing.

Mike

[Astgabel]

Hello again,

first I wanted to say thank you to everybody on this board who helped me so far, and of course, espacially Burgermann making all of this possible at all. This evening I finally found time to set everything up properly to charge the very first cell.

I connected the coolice PSU to my PL8, and the PL8 to my PC via USB. After installing the USB drivers, the software recognized the charger. I read through the manual PDF and loaded the Preset for ONE SINGLE CELL which Burgerman gave me before.

I connected one of my cells (the one I manually numbered "01") via the Banana plug and the charger recognized it correctly as LiFe.

The following screenshot shows what's going on right now.

What can I read of the graph so far? Should I see a different curve? How much time does the very first loading of one cell normally take?

[Burgerman]

That shows just voltage. If you are charging it (loading?) at say 6A and its a 12Ah cell, then it could take 2 hours, or if its almost full, could take 5 mins...

You just need to watch the Amps fall. When the voltage reaches 3.600V and the amps have dropped to a very low level its done! How long? Depends on how close to full it is now.

[Astgabel]

6A and its a 12Ah cell, then it could take 2 hours

I see. Thanks for clarification.

I was just a bit concerned cause it was the first time. Noiw, the graph looks very good, see the attachements.

I'll wait for the beeping to plug it off? What option does configure when the charger "finishes"?

[Burgerman]

What option does configure when the charger "finishes"?

???

[Astgabel]

I'm sorry for the bad English; I meant: Where can I set the termination point? But then I saw that it is already set in the Preset you gave me

I'll have all 16 cells singlely loaded by Saturday. I'll wait untill January the 17th. Then, what did you mean by

Top each one up, make note of mAh returned

What means top each one up?

Where do I messure mAh returned?

[Burgerman]

Recharge after a month.
See how many mAh is replaced.

See:
Capacity IN = 0.0mAh

This tells you how many mAh each cell LOST over a month. So you can make groups of cells in parallel that add up to the same amount. It will be very little. Just a few mAh lost.

Then each parallel group will have the same total mAh loss over time. And when stored, the cells will remain in balance much better.

[Astgabel]

So now after I loaded all 16 cells in mid of december, I toped each one up 1 week ago.

Those are the results I noted, mAh returned:

Code: Select all

01:    96,2 mAh
02:   105,0 mAh
03:   102,0 mAh
04:    99,6 mAh
05:   256,0 mAh
06:   105,0 mAh
07:   111,0 mAh
08:   105,0 mAh
09:    96,6 mAh
10:    99,3 mAh
11:    94,2 mAh
12:   101,0 mAh
13:    87,3 mAh
14:   115,0 mAh
15:   105,0 mAh
16:    97,1 mAh

ordered and grouped:

Code: Select all

13:    87,3 mAh
11:    94,2 mAh
01:    96,2 mAh
09:    96,6 mAh

16:    97,1 mAh
10:    99,3 mAh
04:    99,6 mAh
12:   101,0 mAh

03:   102,0 mAh
02:   105,0 mAh
06:   105,0 mAh
08:   105,0 mAh

15:   105,0 mAh
07:   111,0 mAh
14:   115,0 mAh
05:   256,0 mAh


Do I have to worry about cell No. 05? Are the other cells all right?


Question 2: I still need a crimping tool for my Anderson SB50 plugs. I read your (Burgerman) tutorial and bought a hydraulic crimping tool – but it was awefull, the brakets weren't parallel to each other, and there was constantly flowing oil out of the hydraulic chamber, really poor quality, I sent it back. I'm now having my eyes on a high quality, mechanical pliers, with this modul: http://www.svh24.de/gedore-modul-einsat ... 2/71-49233

Will this be sufficient? Or should I spare the soldering and go for that one: http://www.svh24.de/gedore-modul-einsat ... 6/10-49223

Thanks in advance and regards

[Burgerman]

I would either retest cell 5 or buy another and keep as a spare.

Cables should be crimped to hold in place and soldered. Crimping alone will end badly.

[Astgabel]

How do I retest cell #05? Before I buy a replacement ...

Question regarding storage: As I read in the other thread, for storage 60% capacity is recommended.

So, if I used the pack down to 2,8V , I just charge the pack up to 60% if I know I'll store it for a month or so? Or do I fully charge it and then discharge to 60% again?

[Burgerman]

aNYWHERE From 30 to 70 percent is fine. Count Ah not volts.

[ex-Gooserider]

<snip>

Question 2: I still need a crimping tool for my Anderson SB50 plugs. I read your (Burgerman) tutorial and bought a hydraulic crimping tool – but it was awefull, the brakets weren't parallel to each other, and there was constantly flowing oil out of the hydraulic chamber, really poor quality, I sent it back. I'm now having my eyes on a high quality, mechanical pliers, with this modul: http://www.svh24.de/gedore-modul-einsat ... 2/71-49233

Will this be sufficient? Or should I spare the soldering and go for that one: http://www.svh24.de/gedore-modul-einsat ... 6/10-49223

Thanks in advance and regards

Hard to tell for sure as I don't read German, and the pictures don't zoom in clearly enough to read the markings on the dies, but the first link appears to be for coax type cables which are a lot easier to crimp than the wire we use in Andersons. Coax cables actually don't want a lot of pressure, as that would change the spacing on the dielectric, while on an Anderson we really want to put the pressure on and essentially mash the metal of the crimp into the wire of the cable... I doubt that you'd get enough pressure with a coax cable die set.

The second unit is more ambiguous as whether it is for insulated or non-insulated terminals, but if it is for non-insulated, it will probably be OK, at least if using metric size wires. In the US we use AWG which only comes in even numbered sizes (low number is bigger wire...) and 10mm^2 is about equal to AWG 7, so one has to choose between AWG 6 & 8... My reading of the description says the second module only goes to AWG 8.

I would probably solder no matter what module I used. Anderson says it isn't required if using the factory crimper, but it is worth noting that the factory crimper makes four dents at 90* spacing, while the one you point at only makes a single big dent...

I have played with a ratchet crimper that says it does Andersons, but my usual method has been to use one of the hydraulic crimpers, and soldering.

ex-Gooserider

[Astgabel]

@ Burgerman: For one cell, do I use your "One 10/12/15 Ah Cell" Setup also for discharging? Or do I have to use another discharging Preset? Where is determined how much Ah is discharged, when does it stop? I want only to take 6 Ah away, so the cell has ~9Ah left for storage ...

@ ex-Gooserider: Thank you for the input. No matter HOW I crimp, I'll of course solder too, as Burgerman describes in his tutorial "how to properly solder and crimp". I now went for the follwing unit: https://www.voelkner.de/products/10896/Crimpeinsatz-fuer-Stossverbinder-1-5-10.html It's for non insulated cable shoes and has the hexagonal shape, like recommended from one of the industry leaders : http://www.klauke.com/en/electrical/technical-reports/crimp-types-at-a-glance/

(the hydraulic tool I had was poor quality and was full of oil, I sent it back and went for a "dry" mechanical tool...)

[Burgerman]

It stops either when you stop it, or when its fully discharged. You need to watch the Ah discharged, and stop it at the correct point.

[Astgabel]

OK, I see. Thank you very much for the ultra fast reply - discharging right now!

[ex-Gooserider]

Thanks for that link to the report - interesting info comparing the different crimp types...

ex-Gooserider

@ ex-Gooserider: Thank you for the input. No matter HOW I crimp, I'll of course solder too, as Burgerman describes in his tutorial "how to properly solder and crimp". I now went for the follwing unit: https://www.voelkner.de/products/10896/Crimpeinsatz-fuer-Stossverbinder-1-5-10.html It's for non insulated cable shoes and has the hexagonal shape, like recommended from one of the industry leaders : http://www.klauke.com/en/electrical/technical-reports/crimp-types-at-a-glance/

(the hydraulic tool I had was poor quality and was full of oil, I sent it back and went for a "dry" mechanical tool...)

[Astgabel]

I bought 8 cells (+1 substitute cell for No. 5) additionally, so my pack will be 90 Ah (4P6S) @ 12V.

@Burgerman, could you provide me a PL8 profile for a 90 Ah (4P6S) pack? Or tell me what I have to change on the 60Ah profile you provided me?


By the way, I discharged the other 16 cells a month ago, each about ~ -6400 mAh; as I topped them up now, each cell had a loss about ~ -250mAh. So storing them discharged about 40% makes them lose ~250mAh in one month, is that normal?

[Burgerman]

Yes.

Just change the 60Ah profile. Set a proportionally higher termination mA and increase charge amps by 50%.

[Astgabel]

Thanks for the response.

termination mA was at 200, I set it to 300 (*1,5)
charge amps were at 15A, I set them to 22,5A (*1,5)

What confuses me is that the file you gave me is called "LiFe ICE 60Ah 24V", but I'm building a 12V pack - any differences I have to take into account?

[Burgerman]

Dunno, is it set for 4S or 8s? Thats the only difference between the 12 or 24v.

In "detection" tab...

[Astgabel]

Parallel packs: None
Cells: Auto detect

I guess I change that to 6P and 4S (4 Cells)?

Other question: Is there any other way than using a saw and hammer for removing the orange holders once they are installed? I made a mistake in alighnment (made it 4P6S instead of 6P4S) and those holders (after both sides are applied) seem to be bombproof

[Burgerman]

Always just tapped and took a full side off.

Yes set to 4S or 8S. Auto detect would work for any number but has more stringent cell voltage starting limits.
Leave parallel alone! Thats something different.

For ONE charge, to try to fix your problem, set termination to 1000thC which is 84000mAh div by 1000 = 84 (80 or 85 is fine).