New Permobil M3 mid wheel drive!

[Rollin Positive]

Permobil’s ActiveReach™ technology enables you with up to 20º of forward tilt. This can be used for reaching beyond obstructions, into high cabinets, or even assist in transfers. Truly putting your world within reach.

I really like mine because you can lower the seat back if you need to balance and its great option when you just need to reach an inch or two to grab something!

It also really helps when your transferring out similar to a lift recliner.

The seat lift is 12" vs Prides only 10" lift and the lift now has been increased by 50% so should be able to reach full seat height at 10 -11 seconds!

A big plus is you have full suspension vs lock out stiff suspension that Pride gives its users.

The big brother m5 should be out around summer with a faster 7.5 mph!

[Burgerman]

Or...
Latest TT Brushless, so silent more efficient motors!
8mph,
38 miles/59km Ansi/Resna range as it comes! With lead and 23 stone user.
13/14secs lift.
Rear drive
4 wheel independent suspension
Only 5 degrees forward tilt... But I don't like it!
User programmable so you can change all its speeds/positions/inhibits etc (and we have a OEM/factory programmer!)
7k approx delivered to your door!

[Burgerman]

Out of interest, how much is a fully specked one of these? Is there a prescription form for UK? How can I decide if I want one if theres no online uk prices?

[steves1977uk]

Is this any help BM?... https://permobilus.com/support/order-forms/

Steve

[Burgerman]

Sort of but not in pounds! This girl ordered a full spec F5 and says £22k! Eeek...
http://www.lucy-watts.co.uk/p/wheelchai ... ising.html

Base price is 11k+ Euros! http://www.mobilitec.pt/mobility-power- ... t-permobil

Well I wont be buying. Most of the extras are essential. And some extras cost more than my complete chair delivered and set up!!!


Batteries: 980 dollars!!! EXTRA!
The base price is just for the wheels by the look of it...
A seat option alone (a seat isnt included), with nothing but recline costs more than my complete chair!!!

EXAMPLE: CHOOSE POSTERIOR TILT/RECLINE PACKAGE:
In Dollars:
 I11096 Corpus Seat w/ No Tilt 7,580.00 K0108
Backrest angle can be manually adjusted up to 120°

 I11099 Corpus Seat w/ 50° Tilt & 175° Power Recline 13,995.00 E1007

Mouse module for R-net 938 dollars? Really?

[steves1977uk]

Couldn't find any order forms on the Permobil UK website, but for nearly £23k I would expect a Lithium battery pack and proper charger (no BMS!), brushless motors, tubeless tyres etc as standard!

Steve

[Burgerman]

For 23K I could buy THREE of my new brushless chairs.
Or two, with full lithium setup and a lot of change!!!

[rover220]

Permobil’s ActiveReach™ technology enables you with up to 20º of forward tilt. This can be used for reaching beyond obstructions, into high cabinets, or even assist in transfers. Truly putting your world within reach.

I really like mine because you can lower the seat back if you need to balance and its great option when you just need to reach an inch or two to grab something!

It also really helps when your transferring out similar to a lift recliner.

The seat lift is 12" vs Prides only 10" lift and the lift now has been increased by 50% so should be able to reach full seat height at 10 -11 seconds!

A big plus is you have full suspension vs lock out stiff suspension that Pride gives its users.

The big brother m5 should be out around summer with a faster 7.5 mph!

do you work for permobil?

[Burgerman]

I don't think so. Just a fan since he got one! But in many ways they are good. If you are not paying!

[steves1977uk]

More Pride pushing by Mark... http://www.wheelchairjunkie.com/forums/ ... #Post73608

Steve

[Burgerman]

He's talking about driving about while raised again.

And 4 things...
Thing one.
It hasn't even got any "suspension" in the sense people normally use it. The two main wheels where you sit and which take all the heavy loads as you roll, have non. The motors are mounted to the arm, right under the pivot point. It just has some on the arms. So that they can follow the ground and stop you tipping forwards or back on terrain or if moving downhill or slowing down fast. The arms have springs that appear like suspension, but their true job is pushing the arms into the ground and to stop you falling forwards as you slow or go down a ramp. They do not help with every bump your backside feels because that comes from the drive wheels that you and the batteries are sat on, which can rotate a few degrees, to "lift" the front arms under motor torque to aid on curbs etc. But the drive wheel has no real vertical movement at all on most mid drive chairs.

Thing two. The two big black springs he talks about come down when needed to stop the chair overpowering its normal sprung arms, which prevents you from tipping forwards due to your added leverage from height. So they do lock up (or severely stiffen) the front arms, (which isn't suspension but pitch control) if required. Without those you would fall forwards when deceleration with the seat raised.

Thing three. Riding around when raised IS more dangerous. The chair/occupants C of G is much higher. So you will tip sooner on a transverse (lateral) slope like a road edge. And fall from high up! And you can still fall forwards much more easily if your small caster hits a pot hole or something and stops... I have bent bigger meaner casters that way.

Thing four. Its also more uncomfortable. Any undulations or unevenness is exaggerated as you are swinging around in bigger arcs around the sky, so why would you ever want to do it? My new chair has a seat elevator. Its trivial to set it for 3.5mph while up. Mines going to be set so all speeds are possible in any position. I will use my brain to tell me how fast is too fast. it depends on a bunch of stuff. But I get to decide.

[Rollin Positive]

It's kind of funny you have the only promoter of the Edge 2.0 is a 90 year old lady who lies and misleads people about the quality of the chair.

She is a very light use maybe goes outside once a week and lives in a very small apartment.

One time she insisted she got great mileage with her NF 22 batteries and they lasted "all day shopping" Only to find out that I mapped out her trip with Google and as most she had gone 3 miles!

She got the chair not even needing it as she has 2 Pride chairs with low low miles. She is a Mark Smith Fan girl which is cool but others read her post and believe she is telling the truth?

Funny how she forgets how pissed off she got with the new chair batteries died because she didnt charge it right but got new batteries from Mark so again money or free products dictates behavior!

I am all for user giving there feedback and not the manufacture employee as he is paid to speak about his products in the best light and not let flaws or concerns be the focus. The money Pride pays him dictates his behavior.

Just be honest...

I ridden the Edge and just to refresh anyone that didnt know I took it on a roll to the mall 5 miles from my house and it died on me in a monsoon rain storm a mile or 2 away from my house with no charge left and Mark Smith blamed it on me???

My guess is "express" is Mark too trying to drum up conversation on Pride vs Permobil.

[steves1977uk]

I noticed that Mark's fan base always praises his free stuff he sends out to them. Bet it'd be a whole different story if they had to pay out of their own pockets. It's kind of sad Mark has to do this to get positive feedback on Pride products.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Well Pride v Permobil is like this...

Pride are great at marketing, fancy names, rebirthing the "same old" stuff as new with the dry ice and fancy vids etc.
Permobil actually have some great chairs. And interesting seating etc.

But are 3 times as expensive as say invacare/sunrise(quickie) at least in the UK and bespoke electrics/programming that I can't get hold of the tools for. So even if they had a rear drive chair, I wouldn't buy one.

[Rollin Positive]

Burgerman you keep mentioning price here in the US most rehab chairs are funded and those that pay for chairs usually buy used for penny's on the dollar (ebay, craigslist etc)

I agree the do cost more but so far the build quality is more stable and less cheap plastic parts and no cheap motors!

But Mark has a way of spinning the true to match his needs or the situation. But agree with Steve in the when you look at big picture Mark gives a massive amount of free product and those small and loyal few stick with him but do nothing to really promote the brand!

That is why WCJ has all but died because its a small few that stay and dont really post much and cant really get value out of the site.

I know people that wont leave a Pride chair in fear they wont get there free parts and batteries.

My last four Pride chairs all broke in a major ways in the time I owned them.

I think on the Pride Edge 2.0 I think the springs stiffen when the seat gets to a certain elevation and "stiffens" the ride.

I am sure we will hear the MS "spin" on it...

Pride 6000 broke with software issues the 1st day and got me stuck in a full recline at my office!
Pride 6000z broke so much Pride replaced it with a new chair and it broke!
Pride Edge inhibit issues, motors burned out, lights broke and bent,

[Burgerman]

Well even if price wasn't an issue. How would I get my hands on an oem programmer that allows me to make all the seating/speeds/inhibits work my way?

I also couldn't comprehend buying a chair with antique brushed motors in 2017. Those things do not belong in this century. Ask them why no silent, double range, brushless gearless motors? No self respecting EV manufacturer should be using those today, and in the non mobility world you will not find any unless in children's toys. This isn't a Permobil issue, its industry wide with one single exception.

Or rear drive options?

That said, I do like permobils newer chairs. Just wish they and the other manufacturers would get with this century.

Heres the exception!
1/3rd the cost or less than a Permobil, DOUBLE the range of the Permobil on the same grp24 batteries, totally silent and brushless gearless direct drive motors with nothing to wear out, 125Amp controller, and 8mph, LED lights (rubber and flexible), 4 wheel independent suspension, each adjustable for preload, damping etc. For under 7k delivered. With tilt, recline, centre power footplate, 13 second lift.

[Burgerman]

http://www.wheelchairjunkie.com/forums/ ... #Post73599

You mean exactly like this...

But Mark has a way of spinning the true to match his needs or the situation. But agree with Steve in the when you look at big picture Mark gives a massive amount of free product and those small and loyal few stick with him but do nothing to really promote the brand!

That is why WCJ has all but died because its a small few that stay and dont really post much and cant really get value out of the site.

I know people that wont leave a Pride chair in fear they wont get there free parts and batteries.

Well if they fitted lithium power, brushless gearless motors, as all manufacturers should be doing today, they wouldn't NEED motors and batteries every 2 minutes!!! Seems to me that pride see this a cheap marketing.

[ex-Gooserider]

Uhhm, take a look at my username - relates to what I rode, all year long.... (Ever try buzzing a snowplow gang on a motorcycle? How about waving at the 4WD guys that have gotten stuck......)

Note that the bike you showed had a VISIBLE motor - not a plastic wrapper...

I also remember a test article I read once where the author called as many test riders from different magazines as he could and asked what street bikes over 750cc's they PERSONALLY owned and rode regularly on their own time... Argument being that he kept getting asked this by regular riders that made the point that a test rider got to try more bikes in a year than most folks did in a lifetime, so when they lay out their own cash for something it must mean more, as they are the ultimate 'informed consumers'....

While we were talking US magazines, not the ones you worked for, they were the 'performance' bike magazines, not ones like (sl)Easy Rider... So the test riders questioned were getting to play with all the latest gee-whiz super speeders... But what they put in their OWN garages were overwhelmingly, by about 30-1 singles and twins - Hardly's were #1, with BMW and Guzzi tied for 2nd, and a mix of British iron and Japanese thumpers for the rest....

Agreed they aren't the fastest / latest tech, but seems to me like they had more 'personality' - the few times I tried a 'super-bike' it was like riding an electric motor, fast but boring....

ex-Gooserider

I don't like the looks of the Permobile just because they cover up all the mechanical bits, same reason I don't like the newer 'super-bikes' - performance is nice but if it's a motorcycle, I want to see the MOTOR....

Do you mean that chromed ditch pump that makes more noise than power?

1st time I rode one, 1340, I pulled away at what I thought a steady rate, to a low speed and then let go of the clutch. Thought I would accelerate. Nope, I already had. That was it, out of revs/power. I had set off at max rpm, and there wasn't anything left to go! I was at what felt like walking pace. I was genuinely shocked at how hopeless it was. I thought there was something badly wrong with it. Torque was great I was told. Is it really?

Stuck it on the dyno for fun since I had one. Max torque 76ft-lb. Max HP = 52 rear wheel all at about 4 rpms... And its double the weight of a big Japanese bike with 3x the power so 6x slower.
A 1200 suzuki bandit from 96, parked on my drive, unfaired sit up and beg de-tuned as a naked town bike is smaller capacity makes more torque than the hardly does, and has exactly double the horsepower - rear wheel because it makes that torque at higher RPMs.
A gsxr 1100 WT makes 140 hp rear wheel. In 1996... Both have half the weight.

Torque is no use without RPM, because to go the same road speed you must use higher gearing, which reduces torque at the wheel where it causes motion... Which is why torque x rpm = horsepower. And it doesn't have a lot of torque. It feels like it does only because theres no rpm range to speak of.

Stock bandit below. Caused my paralysis etc! Hooligans bought these because they wheelie, stop, turn, rapid revving motor, loud, good brakes, wide tyres, and go 145mph and run 10.4 on a quarter mile. And because its a GSXR engine easily tops 180BHP or 350HP with a turbo...
And you can see the engine...

[Burgerman]

Well we will have to differ. To me a hardly is just a massive heavy lawnmower that shakes and doesn't go, stop, or turn. And that thing on the bars is mostly a volume knob.

[Smark67]

After having a Permobil M400 (mid-wheel drive) for the past 4 years I wouldn't have one again. The overbalancing at the front is scary if you stop fairly sharply going downhill, and you have to have the front suspension fairly light (the only suspension on the chair really, although they make it look like there is more) otherwise if you try and go up a ramp your drive wheels will be lifted off the ground. Also the front castors pick up every bump, pavement crack etc, making it a not very smooth ride whatsoever.

I looked at the F5 but apparently it weighs a ton. Considering the Evo Electus now (front wheel drive) if anybody has any experience of this? What is the M5 going to be, mid-wheel or front wheel drive?

Cheers.

[Burgerman]

M5 going to be, mid-wheel or front wheel drive?

M=MID
F=FRONT
Presumably...