Why the Frontier X5 is more powerful than Pride's Q6000

[Burgerman]

This is basically for Pete, since he posed this question in another thread.

We discussed control systems on here a while ago (Myself, JoeC etc) and JoeC said he had tested the Dynamic and an older P and G and the dynamic was better in high current situations. After talking to Penny and Giles, and Dynamic tech guys and having tested with clamp meters (for amps) after discussing this I can tell you he is right...

An 80 amp P and G can only do 80 amp to each motor, NOT at the same time. It does 80 total too!
An 80 amp Dynamic controller can also do 80 to each motor but can do so simultaniously.

The 100 amp pilot plus can do 100 max.
The 120 amp Rnet can also do 100 max with a 10 second "boost" at 120 total.
The DX2 is 90 so 180 POSSIBLE! And it can do a 2 second boost at 120 amps per channel so 240 total.

So if the batteries are capable it can give you more power.
The problem is that group 24 gel batteries CANT provide this amount of amps. Or at least they cant without the voltage sagging. At which point the controllers safety circutry reduces the power... Even 80 amps is a struggle with less than brand new MK Gel batteries.

So in an average chair/user theres not "much" difference between one system and another because they are programming and battery limited.

Thats why both JoeC and myself use dual purpose Deep Cycle & Starter batteries... He uses Optimas, I use Hawker Odyssey. These can just about cope when new and fully charged! But even they struggle in giving hundreds of amps when older or less than fully charged. Thats one other reason I love Lithium Polymer batteries as they can be 40c Which means that we can take HUGE currents from them without issue.

Of course with stock programming you very seldom ever "call" for this amount of power as the delays and "accelerations" at the engineering level dont let you. So its irrelivant for the average type user.

Even with everything set linear (all delay and damping removed IN PROGRAMMING) the P and G stil takes 1 sec to ramp up to full power. The dynamic is much faster and therefore better (or can be) According to JoeC who measured both.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/penny-g ... s-best.htm An article on my site explaining this here.
You wont find this stuff on WCJ (Contact your provider!)






Burgerman

[JoeC]

Thanks, Burgerman- a few extra points if I may chime in,

-The X5 uses an inline gear reduction, which I suggest is more efficient than a right angle like most chairs use. Matters little for peak torque, but matters more for battery life.

-The DX2 module is rated at 35 amps for 15 minutes, where the DX module is rated for 27 amps. This is a running thermal average, so although it doesn't sound like a lot, your batteries are sapped quickly when you put that to the test. I didn't do the voltage drop measurements yet, but I think this specification alone is enough to say that the DX2 is more efficient than DX, since it has no major change to the size or external cooling abilities. I'm building new battery cable assemblies soon, so I'll get on top of this

-In addition to battery trouble, many motors will be demagnetized or otherwise damaged by such large currents. Neodymium motors should be near immune to demagnetizing currents, but would be more sensitive to thermal damage.

-When I tested the P&G Pilot+ module, I only had basic programming available. It may be possible that somebody with access to full factory programming (deeper than the PP1B) could change it to ramp up faster.

Hope that's some help! I do still owe those voltage drop measurements...

[Burgerman]

On Pilot Plus PP1A end user controller hardly anything is possible.
On PP1B everything OTHER than that 1 sec to full power is accessible.
On OEM (PP1C?) that I use here (PC based) allows that setting and a few other deadband and bits to be adjusted.

But the one second is about right to get to full power and no delays or lag for most people. So with all accelerations at 100 (off) on the PP1B its great for the average angry user or people that keep hitting door frames!

R-Net has just 2 levels. Useless end user and tech guys, and OEM... That I know of. OEM level is the only one that allows you to configure it properly.

Mines about 0.5 sec ramp up (guesswork) at the moment. Faster is too instant around the centrepoint.

Again what we really need is instant everything with adjustable true deadband and exponential curves. But while thats easily possible with even cheap radio control equipment they dont offer us that option, just delays in response which is unnerving and innaccurate!


I know you mention it because of efficiency improvements but... The continuous or 15 min rating of course also depends on the weather! (Temp). And where the controller is mounted and on what. Mines on a big alloy plate under the seat to lose heat at the front where it sees good airflow if moving and cools well. If the opposite was true (stock chair) it folds back on hot days when worked hard.

Incidentally as you already know but others reading this may not, all systems allow through programming a change in foldback amounts and the temperature that it happens at.

I increase mine to 65 / 70 (from 50) as thats not really very hot anyway. Ten years ago. Not had a failure yet! And no foldbacks either... Full power off road even in summer. 50 is only 10 degrees above a warm day! Safety nazis...

So turn it up accept it may" not like it. But dont worry unduly. Most of those components are happy way hotter than 70 degrees or so.

[JoeC]

Mines about 0.5 sec ramp up (guesswork) at the moment. Faster is too instant around the centrepoint.

Is that your Pilot+,or did your R-net finally come in?

[Burgerman]

Pilot Plus. Its adjustable. With OEM rather than the PP1b. Its about the only advantage. At least I think thats what im adjusting!Indirectly. Certainly feels that way. It can be made to move hard and very very suddenly! But theres more than 1 option here as follows.

Bunch of additional settings over the engineering programmer PP1b in "FACTORY" and "ADVANCED" called:

(THESE ARE IN ADDITION TO THE USUAL ACC SETTINGS ON THE ENGINEERING MENU) They set up another load of "walls".
ABS ACC
ABS DECEL
ABS TURN ACC
ABS TURN DECELERATION
ABS FORWARD SPEED
ABS TURN SPEED
ABS REVERSE SPEED


These speed things up... Make it "feel" totally different around neutral, and can make it horrible and very touchy or the opposite!

ADVANCED
low forward 40
soft forward 20
low backlash 30
soft backlash 41
low spin 10
soft spin 41

Brushless controller should you be interested...
scroll http://www.pgdt.com/pdf/pilotadds.pdf

[JoeC]

I actually have one of those brushless controllers, but the PP1b told us it was labeled as "65 amp", so I never spent a lot of effort bringing that chair back to life. Some kind of intermittent error in the controller (not the joystick or cables, changed those out) would cause the chair to stop dead and need a restart at completely random times. No idea what was causing it- it would even happen at low speed on a perfectly flat surface.

[Burgerman]

Low Forwards.
Go fast and let go of stick, and with it set to 2 (lowest allowed) deceleration is normal until you get to almost stopped and then it just stops! Suddenly. So slow moving about has instant braking. Very jerky and unnatural. Hardly needs the brakes...
Set to 100 and you decelerate and it decelerates normally, and then when really slow just rolls on! You run into things slowly!!! Very odd.
30 seems smooth and natural.

Soft forward.
set to 100 and it Seems to remove dead band and ramp up very fast. Wheelies before you can get the stick to halfway...
But too jerky around neutral back and forwards. So I use 30 to 35 - makes it wheelspin instantly (almost) when reversing. Or wheelies within 1/4 sec from stationary If you want to... Makes reversing or going up ramps very positive. Probably breaks motors...

[Burgerman]

What motors did you use? And were they just three wires and no sensor?


65 brushles is as good as 80 brushed?

Will add what the other settings do when time allows!

[JoeC]

The motors are made by Electrocraft, and I would guess that they are a solid 4.0 inches in diameter. They have more than 3 wires entering the case, not counting the park brake, so it is possible that there is a sensor. The chair is behind some boxes right now so it's inconvenient for me to pull off a connector to see what's what. I can clearly see a two conductor wire entering the parking brake area, separate from the bundle of 4 wires entering the motor. One of the four feels a little like it could be a two conductor bundle- maybe a sensor- can't quite tell without a better look.

Are the 65 amp brushless motors on par with the 80 amp brushed? They might be. The chair was a big step up from the Invacare Ranger X, and it was nimble on the court. It never overheated, and it was valued while it was reliable. The S646 may have been a step up, but I never had a good side-by-side comparison between them, and this happened before I had many of the measurement tools that I now have access to.

I still have the motor base, motor controller, and a compatible joystick. We took various seat components for other things, so it would take some creativity to bring this one back. It would be a massive step backward from either chair she uses now, but if I can solve the reliability problem and put a seat on it, then it would be a big improvement for someone with nothing at all.

[Pete]

That's rather interesting information regarding the difference between the Dynamic and P&G controllers Burgerman, and, as you say, go's some of the way in explaining why the Frontier X5 seems to have far more power than the Q6000.

I had a bit of a ferret around and found a few JPEG's of Frontier X5 bits. There is one of the Frontier X5 motor and one of a Frontier X5 base without the seat attached. See below.

[Burgerman]

Will reply tomorrow. I am a bit "after pub" and drinking vodka...

But looking at that picture I would move the seat forwards a touch, (or the wheels back) and cut the rear casters off...

It was JoeC that brought the controller info to my attention. I am now in the process of ordering a DX2 system. And 8mph Groove motors. Lack of range doesent worry me any more as I have 4 different ways of fast charging on the move and while out!

Later!

Burgerman.

Good informative pictures.

[Burgerman]

I got it backwards. Those wheels I would cut off are at the other end! So that wont work. Tomorrow!

[Burgerman]

The biggest difference between the X5 and the Q6000 will be programming differences. Because while your X5s Dynamix 80+80 controller CAN do more total amps when say stalled or trying to climb a curb, your MK Gel batteries cannot. Or rather they could, but at a lower (sagged!) voltage. When it "sags" under load the controller drops back to lower power automatically. It does the same with the P an G controllers too. (I think MK Gels are stock battery in an X5)

So unless you swap the group 24 73Ah MK for a Deep Cycle and Starter type set of batteries (odyessey or optima etc) then there will be little if any difference in real world conditions.

So you really need to:
a) get a programmer for the Q6000
B) get some smaller group 34 Odyssey 68ah batteries for both! Dont worry they will give BETTER range! Theres more to batteries than Ah ratings.

The reason is that we discharge them in short heavy bursts. And batteries are rated at 20 hour rate. At a 5 hour or less 3 hour rate (the time we ACTUALLY take to discharge them in wheelchair power on run time rather than eating, driving, sat typing this stuff ) then they are actually better than the Gel batteries in capacity. And you get better high current "amp" performance too especially when well discharged.

But typically you will get 10 percent or so less "life" (cycles) before they die. Other advantages? They charge faster and can be charged at very high rates. And they are the same footprint size, but 1 inch shorter. Alowing lower seats. But you dont go far enough to care about range?

The quality issues I was refering to are seating issues. I couldnt even drive my chair with these wobbly arms below, its too "sensitive" and it would be impossible to be accurate. And I weight transfer and pressure lift on the arms. Technicalities but still not good. I would make my own anyway! here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2dxmhcWWEs&NR=1

And as you say the base looks well made so they screwed up at the committee designed seating stage!

[Pete]

Because while your X5s Dynamix 80+80 controller CAN do more total amps when say stalled or trying to climb a curb, your MK Gel batteries cannot. Or rather they could, but at a lower (sagged!) voltage. When it "sags" under load the controller drops back to lower power automatically. It does the same with the P an G controllers too. (I think MK Gels are stock battery in an X5)

While I'm not certain, I think they used AGM batteries in the X5 down here. I think the distributor for the X5 is responsible for supplying the batteries, so the X5 ends up with different batteries in different countries.

While you can get MK Gel down here, you really have to hunt around to find someone that deals in them, so they're not as popular here as they are in other countries. As far as I know Odyssey and Optima batteries are available down here, so when I'm due for a new set I'll check them out.

get some smaller group 34 Odyssey 68ah batteries for both!

The Q6000 already has group 34 batteries, as it has a recessed top cover on the battery box, to allow the seating system to sit lower, unfortunately they're Gel and not AGM.

The seating system is a big let down. You really get the impression that the design guys went home after they finished the base and left the work experience kid to design the seat.

That video sums things up well, I have the same footplate's and thought exactly the same thing as the guy in the video, hell, they didn't even grab a file to round off the edges and remove the plastic burs from cutting. Though I have to say, although my armrests look the same as the ones in the video, they don't seem to be as loose as those ones, you get the impression that something underneath the seat hasn't been tightened up.