Choosing a Decent Stock Powerhair

[alexapc]

I've spent hours and hours researching pretty much every wheelchair manufacturer there is and I've filtered it down to three brands. These brands have a good iinternational presence (for fast parts) and also has chairs I could see actually being useful.

They are Handicare, Otto Bock and Permobil.

I'm particularly drawn to Permobil because they only make powerchairs and not commodes, and also I read somewhere on their site that they use 120 Amp controllers although for the life of me I can't find where I read this. If you find it tell me!

Any thoughts on Permobil?

Also have you actually tried the Otto Bock B600?

And how do you find out the Amp controller information? It's like the specification that doesn't exist!

Thanks

[Burgerman]

Handicare I have never had anything to do with or seen any of their chairs other than on the net.
They are, presuming you are talking about the Puma chair, 25 inches wide (6mm wider than my fat tyred one) and 2 inches longer. I am presuming the length measurement includes footplates.

Group 24 batteries (biggest offered) and 6mph are the only sensible options here of the speeds and battery sizes. It also has 250mm (10 inch) casters which are correct for sensible outdoor use in the mess that is the real world. And a fairly low 17 inch seat height. So well worth a look provided that it has 80 amp controller minumum if you are an active 13 year old girl, or 100amps (or more) if you are a heavy busy adult in a hilly area!

And if a proper programmer is available to buy. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/powerch ... amming.htm

The Otto Bock 600 is much the same setup and layout as the above. (no not actually tested but have examined one in real life) And also worth a look.

Permobil I will take a look at properly someday, but they mostly just do front and mid drive or 6 wheelers and seem more concerned with "colour coded" wheel trims and seating that does tricks than outdoor function and capability!

The only indoor / outdoor chair they do that isnt front/mid drive (which both offend my mechanical sensibilities personally) ios the C350 TS Which is narrow (about half inch less than the two above which is good) and the same length at about 42 inches but it uses smaller group 34 batteries (bad news!), and it can do so since its also slower too (also bad news). So already I would have ruled them out.
No idea what controller it uses as they dont want end users knowing about any technical stuff! Hence I ignore permobil mostly!

Maybe someone that owns one or knows more about them can comment? (Chris Parks, are you reading!?)

There are 130 amp controllers available now from Penny And Giles such as the R-Net ones. Never saw a manufacturer other than the "Tank Chair" use one yet . And it needs much more.

Can only suggest you ask them all lots of questions about motors, speeds, power controllers and programmers, test, try and have a good look and report back here!

Diid you look at the pride quantum r4000 or r4400 chairs?
Burgerman.

[Burgerman]

Handicare Puma Powerchair uses an 80 amp DX Shark controller (I just looked it up) so its probably ok as long as you are reasonable weight at 6mph provided it uses decent 4 pole 6mph motors. 100 would have been better especially if you are heavy.

[alexapc]

Getting put off Handicare they seem to specialize more in making bathrooms accessible rather than wheelchairs.

Otto Bock's website is annoying me I keep getting German manuals thrown at me and it all seems very secretive much like my current Meyra chair. Do they use PG controllers?

The Permobil C350 PS, C350 Corpus (difference other than size?) and the Corpus Street all use the PG R-Net which give it a big plus. I swear I saw 120 Amps somewhere, I'll call to confirm.

The huge international presence of both Permobil and PG would make my life a lot easier.

The Street has group 24 whereas the rest have 34.

My Odyssey PC1500's are group 34's and they're really not bad. What would I be able to fit with a group 24 box?

The Pride R4400 is okay what puts me off is the thin casters that will get caught in everything and bang around. I have the same issue with the Sunrise Quickie Xplore.

My casters now are 3x4. Very thick and effective in getting over stuff.

[Burgerman]

a) R-Net is available in different output levels. http://www.pgdt.com so dont think that because it says R-Net it is going to be the bigger output one! Unless it says so. Check decent programmer capability too? Not end user rubbish...

b) http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/quantum ... -r4400.htm I mention the small caster issue in that review. But I suspect its easy to swap to the same fatter tyres that I use on my chairs. Not sure. It should be if the caster fork and wheel is wide enough and wheel is the right size for the 3.00 x 4 tyres... Its rear drive. It only has 2 casters to worry about so no problem indoors. So why fit small ones that get trapped, sink in sand/soft stuff and dont ride over the outside world as well? Do they actually use these things?

c) otto bock controllers? Dont remember but I think so! If they gad decent sized images you could see! Or some real specs...

d) Oddysey 1500DT batteries AGM batteries (which are 68 Ah) will fit anywhere that group 24 ones will. They are "honoury" group 24s! They work better than say the Group 24 73ah industry standard gel battery. I treat them the same. They are just lower in height. And with a fast 100 amp powerchair they will perform as well as far as range is concerned (due to less voltage drop under load) and better as far as ramp climbing / wheelies and high current capabilities etc as they have a lower resistance than typical group 24 Gel batteries. I use them in place of group 24 batteries everywhere now. Same length and width but less height and better performance.

And yes it so pisses me off when all the data you need isnt easily on the websites and easy to find! Things like exact wheel sizes (so you know what other tyres will fit) detailed control systems and motors data, battery area dimesions, and control system AND PROGRAMMER info is always sadly lacking.

We Must all be too stupid to understand all the "technical" stuff! Its a joke. They are all more interested in colours... And trick seating modes. And attaching your iPod or whatever. They dont get it! So you have to resort to making calls and guesswork or driving miles to see for yourself.

[Burgerman]

Can you see why I built my own fat tyred rear drive COMPACT powerchair using the batteries and motors and control system that I wanted?

There really isnt any choice out there. I had no option! There simply is no powerful true indoor/outdoor capable well finished and well thought out powerchair out there. They use skinny tyres have awful ride outdoors or are too big. Or use small control systems etc. No one chair has it all.

Other than this one... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/ultimat ... rchair.htm

Trust me I would rather buy one than have to make one but you simply cant...

So you have to choose from:
Skinny "hard" small sidewall tyres with no real outdoor capability (3.00 x 8 with 14inch total diameter drive wheels) with smaller casters and a harsh ride? Quantum r4000 r4400 etc and about 30 simolar layout chairs by lesser manufacturers. All too often too wide, long and nose heavy.

Or too big and useless indoors "off road" style chairs?
The best of which is probably the Frontier X5. But its too wide and high.
And it feels like a tank indoors and has weak arms etc, and an extra set of casters hanging out behind you to hit everything/everyone (toes usually) indoors.

Or the otto bocks? (And similar with 50 to 80 amp control systems) and the usual nose heavy power wasting and difficult to manoever setups...

Or a mid wheel or 6 wheel setup that I personally hate and they have too many wheels and they are small so not good outdoors or in snow etc.


I would hate to have to choose. Thats why I built 3 of my own as I COULDNT choose one...
All I can say is test and try all that look even remotely OK.

And read Why ALL chairs should be off road capable. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/why-all ... apable.htm


I think the best way is to find out all the important info about all the chairs that really interest you and make a sort of list of pros and cons. For each. And add up the points! Get the one that has the least things "wrong" according to your priorities.

[alexapc]

Yeah I know the industry sucks and I hate how they insist on treating you like a moron.

Have you ever considered commercially producing your chairs by hiring cheap labour?

If I must resort to buying a chair, I'm gearing towards the Permobil C350 PS. Huge worldwide support, fits my Odysseys, big tires and no forks so I can fit what I want, 6.5mph, Penny and Giles R-Net controller, the guy thinks it's 100 Amps, I'll confirm.

The Corpus Street is 120 Amps, the chair itself is huge though.

[Burgerman]

100 Amps? You must have been speaking to an "industry expert" again!

R-Net modules are 120 amps, or 80 amps.
Or an "EL" one is 90 amps.

see http://www.pgdt.com/products/r-net/index.html

They dont actually do a 100 - thats the Pilot Plus. 50, 80, or 100. Just as good frankly. But no fancy screens etc. Unfortunately they are now more expensive... I am swapping all my 100 amp pilot plus systems to R-Net 120 amp systems in about a month. Better and cheaper.

So my 3x 100 amp modules and an odd 80 amp one will be up for sale soon for those that want/need one.

[CPguy]

Yeah I know the industry sucks and I hate how they insist on treating you like a moron.

Precisely my words! I think it is about empowerment and profits. We are demanding customers because we KNOW it can be done better! Enpowering the user by giving proper, valid and comparable information would not only increase competition between OEMs but would also take away the "expert" aura from therapists and decrease profits for the industry as they would have to offer proper components. Burgermann writes somewhere that the power chair cost him € 3.000,-- (GBP 1.200). Power chairs retail in Austria and Germany for about € 12.000 to € 15.000,-- can you spot the nice (gross) margin there? There is a reason why Invacare and Sunrise Medical have retired from the stock market and all big players (including Meyra Orthopedia Group and Otto bock are private limited companies! That way only the tax authorities see their profit margins! - But I digress.

Back on topic: To my knowlege there is no decent powerchair in the market right now: You can have a narrow and short one (http://www.sks-rehab.ch/A/tech_detail.p ... xtAmount=1 and http://www.sks-rehab.ch/A/prod_detail.p ... xtAmount=1 for a picture) giving you a total width of just 59 cm (I measured 60,0 cm) in combination with a total length of 95 cm (70 cm withot legrests) or a 4 wheel drive (http://www.fourpowerfour.com/) or just a monster ("Otto Bock Super 4" http://www.ottobock.de/cps/rde/xchg/ob_ ... enteaser=1) with all of them you face a compromise.

Of course you are free to try your luck with the pan-european rehab data base combining serveral national data bases. (http://www.eastin.info/).

[Burgerman]

Its not only that but you cant compare either.

I will give just 3 examples.

Width... They always quote width as the narrowest possible configuration. Ie NOT with the average 18 inch cushion fitted... So then the "fat badly designed arms" with control pods sticking out in the breeze are wider than the base! And as any girl will tell you every inch counts!

Length... If its a 6 wheeler (as most are due to the marketing advantage in the US) they under quote length (I have actually measured them) by ignoring footrests, or using their shortest option (that few are supplied with) and by having the rear casters facing the chair...

Range. With group 24 batteries they quote say 20 miles. For the 2 and 4 pole, and for the 4, 6, and 8mph variants! What gives!

So you need to use experience and a little engineering knowledge to really "get it". Making any database pointless...