An update on my possible new chair

[Ironside]

Honestly, what a complete balls up. I had the rep visit me a few weeks ago in order to discuss my new Permobil. I decided on the F5 as its closest to what I am used to. I made it quite clear that it was imperative that I had the Permolock C system fitted because that's what I have in my van.

The chair came just over a week ago, unfortunately, it arrived unexpectedly and a week early so I wasn't actually out of bed. So they left it here and was planning to come back with my new cushion. After inspecting the chair I realised that the button that activates the restraint system on the wheelchair was missing.

After my mate looked under the chair it became apparent that they had actually fitted the Permolock C3 system. This is a different design and will not work with my corpus 500. Obviously, I would still be using the old wheelchair occasionally, more likely when I go fishing. So I still need to be able to lock myself in my van. So I really don't know what is going to happen because the Permolock C can't be fitted on the F5 and even if they can put the Permolock C3 on my corpus 500 we have still got the issue that it's not been crash tested. So I have no idea how this is going to pan out.

[Burgerman]

Thats why all my chairs just use a simple 16mm bolt as used on tow balls on the back of a car. Its easy then to make any chair fit.


Heres your problem https://permobilus.com/permlock-discontinuation/

[Ironside]

Well, somebody should tell whoever runs the Permobil UK website http://www.permobil.com/en-GB/English/Other-products/Please-choose/Permolock-C/

The rep has held his hands up and admitted that it is his fault. It was one of the most important things I emphasised when we had the meeting about purchasing the new chair. There's no way I'm going to spend an extra 2K to have another tiedown system fitted. Anyway, it's not as if I'm getting rid of the corpus 500, I'll still be using it in the van. I don't know what Permobil are going to do about this problem but whatever it is I hope they don't expect me to fork out any more money. Thankfully, I've only paid a deposit and I've got the chair here. So if there's nothing they can do then I will want my deposit back.

I just don't understand why they have felt the need to phase out these tiedown systems. It's not as if the Permolock C has been around for that long. Terrible decision by the people who run the company.

[Burgerman]

Most other systems just use a bolt and so are interchangable. Getting mixed up with systems like permobils one(s) ties you into a bespoke system.

[Ironside]

I've decided that the only option is to cancel the order for the new Permobil F5. I spoke to Permobil today and they did give me the option to have a different tiedown installed in my van which they would pay for. That would mean I could use a new wheelchair in my van but it would still leave me with my Permobil Corpus 500 that has a different tiedown system. They then suggested that I could purchase some spare parts to attach underneath the corpus which would then make it compatible with the tiedown system. However, I think that would be down to me to not only pay for it but also find somebody who could do the job. Because it's not been crash tested they can't sell it. Even if I could find somebody who would be willing to drill into the bottom of my chair with really no way of knowing if it would work, it would cost a lot of money.

So decided just to keep the corpus 500 and maintain it for the next three or four years and then think about buying a brand-new wheelchair. My wheelchair voucher will enable me to purchase a backup chair. Mind you, they have half the price of the wheelchair vouchers they now give you. I've got the option to buy a wheelchair with the £2974 they have given me, or get one on the lease. I don't think you're going to get much for £2974 so I might go with the option they listed which is the Salsa R4. It certainly wouldn't be my ideal choice for a permanent power wheelchair, but it will certainly suffice in an emergency if my main corpus 500 is out of action for a while.

[Burgerman]

Tie downs...

Just buy or get a used standard configuration type tie down. Ezelock or any one of the multitude of clones. Then all any of your chairs, new, old or future need is a simple 16mm bolt. Ebay, call a few mobility vehicle dealers, get a used one for very little. Its fitted with 4 bolts. The wiring you already have is already there. If you cant DIY this get any auto electrician to fit it, say 40 pounds? Its a 30 min job. It will leave you with a permobil one to sell on ebay.

I fit that 16mm bolt to all my chairs. To my home designed, chairs. All different. Any chairs I borrow for a bit. My new Salsa is about to get it. Its easy to fit a bolt. To literally a flat plate 260mm square, delivered to my door with 4 holes, (1x 8mm hole in each corner.) Cut by a lazer ordered online, and delivered for 12 uk pounds. Then weld an M16 deep nut to the bottom (or buy a man a to do that for me). Thats it. A full wheelchair tie down bracket! Remove batteries, drill 4x 8mm holes and bolt it on. Replace batteries. Screw in correct length 16mm bolt. EBay for tow bar bolt or M16 bolt. Its so easy YOU can do it yourself to any new chair you get.

[Es*]

Nightmare! I have an F5 and I'm hearing that the Dhal is a better locking system by far for it than the Permolock, not that that sorts your problem in any way at all. I'm so sorry. What're you going to get instead?

[Burgerman]

Just get a used or cloned ezelock... http://www.ezlock.net/

Then add a simple bolt to any chair.

[Ironside]

Unfortunately, I don't think I have any alternative but to forget about getting the Permobil F5 at this stage in time. The whole point of me buying this wheelchair was so that I could keep it for best and not take it to all the lakes and ponds that I visit when I go fishing. My current wheelchair which is the Corpus 500 would have been assigned to not only way backup wheelchair, but my fishing wheelchair as well. There's no point in me spending 18 K if I can only use one of the wheelchairs in my van. At the moment, all I need is a basic backup wheelchair in case anything goes wrong with the Corpus 500. From what I can tell, the Salsa R2 will do the job just fine. Okay, it might not be any good for going fishing in, or going up and down into town several times, but at least I won't be stuck in bed.

[Burgerman]

The whole point of me buying this wheelchair was so that I could keep it for best and not take it to all the lakes and ponds that I visit when I go fishing. My current wheelchair which is the Corpus 500 would have been assigned to not only way backup wheelchair, but my fishing wheelchair as well. There's no point in me spending 18 K if I can only use one of the wheelchairs in my van.

What part of this are you not seeing???

Just get a used or cloned ezelock... http://www.ezlock.net/
Then add a simple bolt to any chair.

I have 6 different chairs. They, and any I buy in future, ALL fit the van...

Also having just bought a Salsa WITH THE RIGHT OPTIONS it will out perform your old permobil in every way I can think of!

Centre footrest, 4 pole, 120A controller, OEM programmer, grp 24, seat moved back as the centre footrest allows it, etc etc. And easily fitted with ONE BOLT for the tie down.

[Burgerman]

There's no point in me spending 18 K

There certainly isnt!!! The one above stands me at approx 7k !!! What are you smoking?

And yes they do a backwards going version too if thats what you want.

[Ironside]

I don't know how you can possibly know that your wheelchair outperforms my current Permobil in every way, all you do is come across as being a tad arrogant. I'm very happy with my Permobil Corpus 500, it served me well for seven years. I used it every single day since 2011 apart from a couple of times when I've had problems. But I very much doubt there are many people out there who don't experience problems with a wheelchair at some time.

You are obviously in the very lucky position where you have the knowledge and specific skills to make a bespoke wheelchair that suits your needs. Most of us have to take what is available off-the-shelf.

All of these different makes of wheelchairs have been crash tested and the manufacturer will not sell you anything that has not been crash tested. It's all very well taking the wheels from one make a wheelchair, the seat from another, the backrest from a different type and then sticking them all together to make a hybrid, that wheelchair will not have been crash tested. I guess you would have to obtain the parts yourself and put them together at home. Again, if you are able to do this then that's all very fine, but I don't know anybody who could take part from different wheelchairs and then put them all together so it works properly.

If something happened whilst you were driving in your van in one of these hybrid chairs then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court if you tried to sue the manufacturer of the wheelchair. In fact, if the wheelchair failed then I would bet the onus would lie with you for using a mishmash of different wheelchairs.

[Scooterman]

If something happened whilst you were driving in your van in one of these hybrid chairs then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court if you tried to sue the manufacturer of the wheelchair. In fact, if the wheelchair failed then I would bet the onus would lie with you for using a mishmash of different wheelchairs.

Burgerman's 'mishmash' chairs are better built than any off the shelf 'crash-tested' manufacturer's chair. I'd rather be sat in one of his chairs in an accident.

[Burgerman]

In a crash, you would be far more likely to be injured in an "official" chair. Crash testing is a joke, go read the rules. I build mine strong in the right places. And yes you are right. You could sue a manufacturer when you were hurt. But you would still be hurt! I have seen quite a few official chair tie down fitments. Many are very flimsy looking compared to mine. And I wouldnt trust them or the seat mountings etc in a crash.

And much of my chairs have nothing to do with mixing parts and are about 50% scratch built. But making a tie down adaptation for a bolt for a stock chair isnt rocket science. Its simple. And if you over engineer it, then its maybe heavy, but much stronger than any bit of 3mm bent bracketry that the manufacturers supply.

As for how do I know it performs better than your chair its because I know whats in it, how its made, how its programmed, how it performs. And many of the things I do are specifically to improve on various things that are non too great. For eg I know your programming is terrible. Because all stock chairs are. Esp front drive ones. And without fine tuning and access to an oem programmer then you wont fix it.

[Williamclark77]

It sounds like you got the ole "bait and switch" routine. It very well could possibly have been an oversight, but I would bet against it. If you accept it or fork out any money to fix it then you took the bait. I fell for it several times before finding out that was a (very effective) sales technique.

Those Permobile lockdowns are superior to EZ Lock types, in my opinion. I've never used the Permobiles but the pins that partially retract are fantastic for ground clearance. Every millimeter on a powerchair helps. I don't care how high you get that EZ Lock bolt. It is a death trap for any active user. If it catches a tree root or other fixed object at speed the chair is stopping, causing the user to do his best Pete Rose impersonation. Don't ask how I know.

I was going to use a Permobile lockdown on my first powerchair that I drove from, a Permobile Street. I didn't because they were unacceptably expensive (if memory serves me correct the cheapest dealer quote I got was around $6,500) and they did not completely retract. I went with the EZ Lock but eventually made the bolt retract fully into the base between the batteries after a few scary and embarrassing situations. See above paragraph.

I ended up designing and building a fully custom docking system but that's out of the range for most users. Either way, stick to your original order. Don't let them provide less or different than what you paid for. Good luck.

[steves1977uk]

I don't know how you can possibly know that your wheelchair outperforms my current Permobil in every way, all you do is come across as being a tad arrogant. I'm very happy with my Permobil Corpus 500, it served me well for seven years. I used it every single day since 2011 apart from a couple of times when I've had problems. But I very much doubt there are many people out there who don't experience problems with a wheelchair at some time.

You are obviously in the very lucky position where you have the knowledge and specific skills to make a bespoke wheelchair that suits your needs. Most of us have to take what is available off-the-shelf.

All of these different makes of wheelchairs have been crash tested and the manufacturer will not sell you anything that has not been crash tested. It's all very well taking the wheels from one make a wheelchair, the seat from another, the backrest from a different type and then sticking them all together to make a hybrid, that wheelchair will not have been crash tested. I guess you would have to obtain the parts yourself and put them together at home. Again, if you are able to do this then that's all very fine, but I don't know anybody who could take part from different wheelchairs and then put them all together so it works properly.

If something happened whilst you were driving in your van in one of these hybrid chairs then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court if you tried to sue the manufacturer of the wheelchair. In fact, if the wheelchair failed then I would bet the onus would lie with you for using a mishmash of different wheelchairs.

Sounds to me like your annoyed that Permobil won't do what you want, hence it's a bad idea to get locked into a proprietary system. But It's your choice!

Oh and BMs chairs are better built all round than any of the big powerchair manufacturers.

Steve

[Burgerman]

You are obviously in the very lucky position where you have the knowledge and specific skills to make a bespoke wheelchair that suits your needs. Most of us have to take what is available off-the-shelf.

That chair that I posted pictures of, that you replied to, is a STOCK chair. Just arrived. Around 7k delivered. Your permobil is basically the same thing, at 3x the cost, only it will never perform as well.

I just relocated seat, fitted wheels/tyres that are not solid spine jaring flat free, or puncture prone tubed, so I get no punctures that will leave me stranded, a smoother ride than any stock chair at lower pressures. And because they are wider so dont sink on soft ground or my lawn... And its now reprogrammed properly too, with fine tuned motor compensation etc so it will actually steer properly. Unlike everything stock.

And a few other minor improvements like increasing recline, removing the inhibits in some places, relocating the joystick to a more comfortable position. And minor changes to the centre footplate to allow it to sit further back between the caster wheels. etc. I will also fit lithium phosphate, so it charges in about 2 hours flat, lasts a decade, has 3x the range of your permobil, and weighs about 50lb less. And a simple tie down bolt while I am at it. A few minor changes that turn a stock chair into something useful that works properly. This stuff is how I know it will out prerform your permobil. No guesswork or testing needed.

Sounds to me like your annoyed that Permobil won't do what you want, hence it's a bad idea to get locked into a proprietary system. But It's your choice!

In one! Everything permobil seems to be 3x the price!

I don't know how you can possibly know that your wheelchair outperforms my current Permobil in every way, all you do is come across as being a tad arrogant.

Well one of my chairs does 16mph, has 45 to 50 miles range, has 6 inch wide tyres that work on the beach or pavement that are tubeless and kevlar reinforced. It uses a 150A roboteq controller at 45V, and is shorter than your permobil. And way better off road. And around 70kg lighter! So I absolutely know that that will out perform it! http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM%20MK ... lchair.pdf Its not something I am arrogant about its something I KNOW FOR SURE! All my chairs perform better than stock ones.

[Scooterman]

Well one of my chairs does 16mph, has 45 to 50 miles range, has 6 inch wide tyres that work on the beach or pavement that are tubeless and kevlar reinforced. It uses a 150A roboteq controller at 45V, and is shorter than your permobil. And around 70kg lighter! So I absolutely know that that will out perform it! http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM%20MK ... lchair.pdf

And he's going to sell it to me for knock down price! Lol

[ex-Gooserider]

16mm Bolt works and totally sucks! See - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook

Will made a great setup that does a much better job and doesn't involve driving around with a grappling hook hanging off the chair!

ex-Gooserider

[c500user]

I was in a similar position 2 years ago. I ordered an F5 to replace my old C500. I found out about the Permolock issue a week before it was delivered and cancelled the order. After looking at alternatives I eventually ordered a new C500. It was delivered early last year.

Note that the C500 low rider is still available in Holland and the UK.
http://www.permobil.com/Global/United%2 ... _LR_UK.pdf
http://www.permobil.com/en-GB/English/C ... Corpus-3G/

Perhaps an option to consider?

Note that where the bolt on the C500 retracts into the frame, the 2 bolts (for the new Permolock) on the F5 DO NOT RETRACT. Ground clearance is reduced by more than 50mm leaving only 24mm ground clearance!

[c500user]

See my comments in viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5320

[c500user]

Thats why all my chairs just use a simple 16mm bolt as used on tow balls on the back of a car. Its easy then to make any chair fit.


Heres your problem https://permobilus.com/permlock-discontinuation/

Not quite. Your link is to Permobil USA.

Permolocks are still listed on the Dutch and UK Permobil websites.
http://www.permobil.com/nl/Netherlands/ ... rmolock-C/
http://www.permobil.com/en-GB/English/O ... rmolock-C/

[woodygb]

https://permobilus.com/permlock-discontinuation/ states ....

Permobil Inc. is phasing out the Permolock C and Permolock C3 from our product offering. Starting March 1, 2015,

Permolocks are still listed on the Dutch and UK Permobil websites.

those webpages give 2015 as their update status.

Permobil © 2015. All rights reserved

Thus the European webpages are simply out of date.

[c500user]

I ordered my new C500 + 2 new Permolocks late 2016. They were delivered early 2017.

[Burgerman]

You can buy many things that are discontinued for years after. But is it wise.