ex-Gooserider intro

[ex-Gooserider]

Hello,

I used to be just "Gooserider" on most online sites up until almost a year ago, when I got hurt, now I'm ex-Gooserider, as I fear my Guzzi riding days are over...

Gory Details: I was heating our house with wood, and which led to me taking down a tree with a nasty snag in it. The snag broke loose, and when it came down took a bounce that sent it following me right down my escape path. Separated my right shoulder, broke a bunch of ribs, and my left tibia. The paramedics picked me up, and hauled me to a nearby trauma center, where they found that one of the ribs had punctured my aorta. They went in to do the emergency surgery to fix my aorta, and in the process left the blood supply to my spine clamped down for to long - result is I'm now a T-5, ASIA-B para.

Currently my wheels are a manual Quickie Q-7, a 2001 Jazzy 1100 with some minor seat mods, and another Jazzy Select 6 that used to belong to my late father. I also have an Invacare "Mariner" shower / commode chair that I use for bathroom stuff...

I live in Billerica, MA, USA, with my GF of 17+ years in a house that has been converted to be (barely) accessible by adding a ramp outside, and redoing the main floor bathroom to have a roll in shower instead of a tub. I still can't get to the basement, the master suite on the 2nd floor, the back porch and swimming pool, or the laundry room, but maybe someday we'll figure those out...

Haven't gotten back to driving yet, but will hopefully be getting a driving eval / training on how to use adaptive controls within the next few weeks - the state rehab agency (that wants to get me back into a job, so as to become a taxpayer...) says this is the first step towards getting me an adaptive vehicle, which they figure I would need to pursue any kind of education or job opportunity...

I'm still trying to figure out what to do with life after paralysis, as currently I find most stuff immensely frustrating - I have a garage full of tools that I either can't reach, or can't use safely from a chair (or both)... I used to keep us from ever needing to call the plumber / electrician / appliance repair guy / etc. - but now I can't REACH the stuff I'd need to be able to do that.

Other stuff I used to do included my bikes... Beekeeping (can't stand up to get into the hives) Home brewing (hard to reach the stuff to work with the carboys, plus can't move the carboys around, or get to all the ones in the basement) and so on...

I have some background as an electronics tech, but that is rusty as all get out. Mass. Rehab is talking about sending me back to college to try and get a degree of some sort, I'm inclined towards engineering, but not at all sure about what sort, as nothing really "speaks" to me about it...

I would like to do something about getting / making a better chair. While very impressed by Burgerman's descriptions of what he has done, I would say that my primary interest at this point is in getting into some sort of standing chair. Quite aside from the claimed health benefits of standing, I feel like it would help me a lot to be able to use more of my tools again. I want to make stuff, and I feel like it would be far simpler to enable me to stand than it would be to make whatever shop I'm in "accessible"...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Welcome!

Several things. When you get "into" powerchairs as I have, in a year or two, you will come to see that they are only as good as their batteries. THEY are the limiting factor.

They prevent all electric vehicles from being faster, having more power/speed/torque and cost lots of weight.

Batteries are the heart of your chairs. Here lies the problem...

Standing chairs, + chairs with seat risers generally all have no option but to use samaller capacity batteries. Their mechanical parts need the space that the batteries normally use. And since they are already the biggest problem this compromises the chair for general everyday use. At least it does with old tech lead (Gel) batteries. Anything with less than group 24 (or 34 Odyssey even better!) is by definition very limited on stamina... Or it has toi be slower...

Eg the Pride Q6 "EDGE" is basically a narrower Q6000. So to make it 2 inches narrower they fitted smaller batteries. It has less range, and a smaller controller (75Amps only) and a lower speed. The "fast" one is just 6mph. The normal one is 5...

The Q6000 uses "NORMAL" full sized group 24 batteries and the stock one has 6 mph and more range. The high speed one suffers from a lack of torque, due to the batteries, the controller max amps, and has less range...

Its why I choose to now go lithium in my new powerchair. At about 1k uk pounds for batteries alone. It allows me to double the speed and still have double the range! Updated spec today, because of battery change. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM%20MK ... lchair.pdf

So unless you build your own, and use lithium power there isnt much chance of getting a decent standing powerchair.

[ex-Gooserider]

What you say makes sense, but at least at present, I am finding that I don't kill my batteries during day to day use... My Jazzy 1100 came with U1's installed, but they were dead when I was given the chair, and I replaced them with Group 24's as that is what the manual for the chair said it was designed for...

In practice, I've found that I can use the chair to make multiple medical visits (using paratransit vans to get to and from) and a shopping run to the nearby grocery store and back plus running around the house before I can get the batteries down to the first yellow LED on the controller, which I think is about a 70% discharge. Usually I don't let it get even that low... Sounds like you do a lot more running around than I do at present, maybe if I had a better chair I would do more...

I suspect that I could probably get away with U1's if I had to, though the bigger sizes would be better.

Do you think it would be possible to get a stander mechanism on your Mark 2 style chair? I know you said it was possible to do a tilter, and / or a seat lift without much trouble, and I don't see how a stander would need much more space...

Just out of curiosity, have you looked at the Redman power chairs? They look to have a bulgy battery box in the rear, but otherwise don't seem that far from your ideals - and the battery box is intended to function at least in part as a counterweight to the person standing - it even goes further back when you stand... Haven't tried it, but of the standers available in the US, it looks like one of the best, and is probably what I'd get if I had tons of money... I've also been impressed by the website for the UK Genie, but far as I know that chair isn't available in the US...

I don't have formal engineering training, but I've done a bit of design stuff that has worked pretty well, so I'd think it should be possible to do a standing setup as long as the balance issue can be solved.

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

The reason that you have no problem with your group 24 gels is several!

Your jazzy chair has small amp controller, 70? weedy motors because its speed is so slow at 4mph. And is programmed like a jelly! Not wishing to be offensive but explaining the problem.

Increase gear ratio and thats what you have to do to go say 6 mph so its safe to cross a busy junction or go to a pub a mile away in winter without frostbite and you will discover the problem! That 6mph takes 4 pole motors, and say 50 to 70 percent more amps from the batteries. The voltage and power sags, (gel = high resistance) and your range and torque suffer. Now add some more purposeful less "jelly" programming and a bigger amp controller and the voltage sag under load becomes a problem... One that most users never undertand or see. Because the industries "best" powerchairs disguise it in soggy sluggish factory programming.

Now try say 8 mph, which is still slow when you get used to powerchair life, and the problem doubles... And you need a bigger programmer (amps) that they make, and gel batteries can no longer cope, and torque/range fall rapidly. Add 6 months heavy use to your batteries and the chair drives awful... Since voltage drop under load increases, range falls over time. And resistance goes up. This affects heavy powerful chairs more, and has a much bigger effect on them.

Hence my latest 15 mph, long range, lithium powered, 47v (42 nominal) 300 Amp controller 14,000 watt chair! Its all about the batteries. At the end of the day its built arond them and they are its limits. But lithiums are smaller. So you may be able to build an acceptable standing chair that is still very capable indoor/outdoor too.

[ex-Gooserider]

I'm not feeling insulted, I'm pretty aware of my 1100's limits, so it doesn't bother me to say it's got issues, even though it does get me around OK for now, albeit slowly... At least right now, I don't seem to be as hard on my chairs as you describe yourself as being, don't know how that would change as I got one that was more capable, but at least it seems to me like I could handle a 6-8 mph chair with a stock controller (presumably an R-net, just so that I could get the ability to program it from my Linux box...)

The big challenge to start with seems like just getting hold of the right chassis to start with - I may be able to get something from Martin, or possibly find an F55 on UK Flea-bay, or perhaps the other alternative, is there a US market chassis that you would consider a reasonable substitute for the F55?

Ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

I only used the f55 chassis because I had one... Its all just mind over metal really! As long as you know what you want and can figure a way of getting that. After all the only bit I use is the frame with a chunk cut out of it, the seat - mostly modified, and the rear light cluster... All the rest, which is 90 percent, is not f55 anyway... And much of it was not even powerchair! Have a look around and see what there is locally before you get involved in importing foreign chairs/parts.

[Martin O Refurbisher]

Whilst I am happy to ship parts anywhere possible, and the F55 has much going for it as a base, including a well know concept and good documentation, a local purchase makes sense.

I would suggest that you need to decide:

1. Performance, hence motor / gearbox combination, then
2. Batteries, as these greatly influence both power and range,
3. Frame to keep them in. I am sure that there are alternatives to the F55 - what does Sunrise offer in US?
4. Control system
5. Seating

Of course there are other issues, but local purchase has advantages where possible.

Best,

Martin

[ex-Gooserider]

Looking at the Sunrise medical website, I see the Quickie rear wheel drives are the S-636, (6.5mph) the S-646 and S-646SE (7.0 vs 8.5 mph) and the P-222, which they seem confused about as they list it under the rear wheel drive chairs, but then describe it later as a midwheel unit On the plus side, it does look like all of the rear wheel units can fit either group 24 (good) or group 22NF (not so good) batteries and they have frames that are similar looking to the F55 as best I can tell, but it is really hard to tell from the pictures, especially when I don't have that much powerchair experience to judge by.

In Mid-wheel drives, they have the "Rythm" and "Pulse 6" models...

Not sure what they might have offered in the past...

Perhaps I should call Sunrise tech support and ask them if there is a US equivalent to the F55...

BTW, I will be out of reach for a couple days as I am going into the hospital tomorrow in order to be prepped for a colonoscopy on Friday... Should be routine, but not sure how wiped out I'll be when I get home...

Ex-Gooserider

[Martin O Refurbisher]

Yes, Sunrise here are very helpful to me (but I do have a dealer account). It's well worth trying them. Otherwise, I have most if not all parts in stock at this moment. (Changes daily, as demand generally keeps my stock of used parts very low, although I can supply new ones - I would always recommend a new tubular frame. (£130 new, £65 used, add £65 for powder coating in black or silver, or £75 for RAL colour as available) I would also recommend new forks, but from then on, its up to you.

I currently make / have made:

- replacement keys and tab washers for drive wheels,
- seat mounting plate with more adjustment than factory ones,
- Wheel hub adaptors per BM2 (will be doing Mk 3 motor mounts)
- Swing away pod mounts to replace the usually floppy arm,
- special footplates / footrests,
- special seating
- other specials to order

Recent shipment costs to USA/Canada have been c £103 for 25kg of frame & parts; £440 for a complete chair.

Hope al lgoes well with the hospital exam.

Best,

Martin

[Martin O Refurbisher]

I think I should add a note of caution.

You talk about buying a used chair from EBay. Of the last 3 that I bought on Ebay, one had completely mis-matched motors and gearboxes (allegedly new replacements), and the other two were seriously bent, having clearly been in accidents! Even I was suprised to see how badly front forks can be bent, and the chair still roll! All the batteries were just dead weight. Always a risk with any previously owned chair. I am fortunate that most of mine I buy and collect direct from the seller, and the history is often well known.

In context, when I refurbish a chair, I check all frames for alignment, and replace as needed (in any event, the tubular frame is only £130 new from Sunrise), so if I have to, I replace these with new ones. I then scrap the old ones for safety, as I am reluctant to attempt realignment, not having a car type jig.

However, if you are overseas, and don't do a full refurb, it may come as quite a shock to find that your pride and joy runs like a crab! This is why my stock refurbs, when I can build up stock, will all be either black or silver.

Best,

Martin

[ex-Gooserider]

Whilst I am happy to ship parts anywhere possible, and the F55 has much going for it as a base, including a well know concept and good documentation, a local purchase makes sense.

Agreed, local is better, if only because it saves on freight... OTOH, I've had one or two times where I was able to get a better deal ordering from the UK manufacturer for just the parts I needed, as opposed to getting the stuff in the US...

However it seems to me that unless you can get much better deals, it may make sense for me to get some stuff from US sources where possible / practical, especially on things that were originally made in the US, just to avoid multiple sets of freight, currency exchanges, and so forth...

I would suggest that you need to decide:

Well as a first pass...

1. Performance, hence motor / gearbox combination, then

From my understanding of the discussion BM has posted, it seems like the 6mph motors are the best price / performance package - to go with 8hp motors costs a lot more money, doesn't get that much more speed, and has a largish battery life penalty... Since I think the motors are a US source item, probably try to get them locally. I'm not sure how specific the motors are - how "standard" are the housings, mounting holes, shafts and so forth between different chair models and / or manufacturers?

2. Batteries, as these greatly influence both power and range,

Presumably group 24, AGM's at least to start, unless the Odessy's are similar in cost. I can't see talking the GF into paying the costs for any form of Li cells at this point, as the cost difference is HUGE... This is definitely something to get locally, as the weight is a BIG issue.

3. Frame to keep them in. I am sure that there are alternatives to the F55 - what does Sunrise offer in US?

I think I mentioned this in a different post, I didn't see anything that looked like a BM-2 equivalent box, so unless they have a US equivalent to the F55 frame to use as a starting point, then getting an F55 and the appropriate BM bits seems like a good bet...

4. Control system

Ideally, I'd want something that can be reprogrammed with my Linux box (I don't do Windows) so I don't know if that would be something I can do with an R-net controller, or if I'd be better off looking at a Roboteq or equivalent - again, I'm not convinced that
/quote]5. Seating[/quote] This gets interesting, and again, I don't know how much can be US sourced, vs. how much would be F55 specific... I'm still fighting with my current WC provider to get a comfortable "all day" seat cushion, but presumably I would want a "sling" seat w/ cushion, and a tension adjustable cloth back - it is what I have on my manual chair, and it works reasonably well. (My 1100 has a kludged up adaptation of a "car seat" and isn't optimal) I really want to be able to stand, and would ideally like to be able to put a standing setup on a BM chassis. Short of that I wouldn't object to a seat riser, with possibly a tilt / recline option... I could be wrong, but I thought I saw a picture of a semi-stock F55 with a riser setup that looked like it was a four cornered "scissors-jack" type arrangement, as opposed to a center post setup, which presumably would be better in terms of not interfering with the batteries. I'd think a four corner seat mount would also be easier to adapt to do a standing setup since it would provide some mounting points to pivot on as a starting point...

Of course there are other issues, but local purchase has advantages where possible.

Best,

Martin

Certainly your thoughts on this would be most helpful, as you probably have a much better grasp of what the best options are, just from having done more of this stuff.

ex-Gooserider

PS - the hospital visit was mostly a non-event. They didn't find anything of particular note, at least in that regard I'm reasonably healthy.

[Martin O Refurbisher]

OK,
Good to hear you are OK.
So adressing each item in turn:

1. Shipping.
I am happy to consolidate parts orders for you so that you save money by it all going in one/two single boxes. I don't charge for packing or documentation, so that may save you a little.

2. Prices. I give forum members a special deal on everthing that can. Where I buy in bulk, I also pass some of that benefit on.

3. Re-exporting US goods seldom makes sense, but the 4 & 6.2 mph motors are by EMD of Halstead, in UK. I suspect that the Groove motors that Burgerman uses on the Mk 3 are US sourced.

I agree that for general use it seems like the 6mph motors are the best price / performance package but to go with 8hp motors you may find a US source.

In any event. I am planning to offer all the BM special parts for both BM2 & BM3 so you don't have to worry about getting them locally.

2. Batteries, as these greatly influence both power and range, BM recommends Odessey or Optima for BM2, but is going Lithium for the BM3. It looks like Lithiums need to be sourced from US or the Far East, not from UK.

3. We can supply new or used frames - I am suprised at the value in these - they are very complex.

Presumably group 24, AGM's at least to start, unless the Odessy's are similar in cost. I can't see talking the GF into paying the costs for any form of Li cells at this point, as the cost difference is HUGE... This is definitely something to get locally, as the weight is a BIG issue.

3. Frame to keep them in. I am sure that there are alternatives to the F55 - what does Sunrise offer in US?

4. Control system. Like you, I favour Linux, but it is not significant, as only a settings table is uploaded. The controller choice depends upon your own requirements

5. Seating. The F55 is a great platform - you can have seat squab tilt, separate backrest recline, and also the riser. The F55 riser lifts about 11 1/2 "", and is shown in the parts manual - if you have not got one, I'll find you the link to it.

Let me know if I can help further.

Best,

Martin

[ex-Gooserider]

(trimmed)
1. Shipping.
I am happy to consolidate parts orders for you so that you save money by it all going in one/two single boxes. I don't charge for packing or documentation, so that may save you a little.

Sounds good, at this point I'm just theorizing, but it seems that unless there are some real killer customs fees, your costs aren't unreasonable, judging from what I've seen in other posts. Just out of curiosity, is this air freight, or "slow boat"? If it saved significantly on the cost, I wouldn't object to slow boar as time isn't a big issue for me at this point.

2. Prices. I give forum members a special deal on everthing that can. Where I buy in bulk, I also pass some of that benefit on.

Appreciate that, as price breaks are a good thing... Don't object to a reasonable profit at the same time though...

3. Re-exporting US goods seldom makes sense, but the 4 & 6.2 mph motors are by EMD of Halstead, in UK. I suspect that the Groove motors that Burgerman uses on the Mk 3 are US sourced.

I agree that for general use it seems like the 6mph motors are the best price / performance package but to go with 8hp motors you may find a US source.

Well since I'm thinking in terms of a Mark 2, I'm figuring the 6mph motors. Any idea whether the US and UK 6mph motors would be the same? One concern I would have about using UK motors is the question of getting spares at some time in the future, and / or getting the motors serviced - I've seen mention of Eurton Electric as a good place to get motors serviced - would they be able to deal with a UK motor?

In any event. I am planning to offer all the BM special parts for both BM2 & BM3 so you don't have to worry about getting them locally.

That would probably be one of the biggest items, as the BM parts would presumably be the hardest things to obtain...

2. Batteries, as these greatly influence both power and range, BM recommends Odessey or Optima for BM2, but is going Lithium for the BM3. It looks like Lithiums need to be sourced from US or the Far East, not from UK.

I haven't looked into the pricing extensively, but my understanding is that the Odessy batteries are comparably priced to AGM/gel cells, so I'd certainly consider them. Lithium still seems to be incredibly dear, so I am not planning on them. Either way, I am figuring a US source on the batteries simply because of the weight, and the fact that they are pretty easy to get locally.

3. We can supply new or used frames - I am suprised at the value in these - they are very complex.

I'm thinking I probably will need to get the frame from you, as Sunrise US tech support says they don't have anything similar to the F55 in the US - they said that the US and UK chairs are totally different, not a case where they did the same chair under different model names... While a used frame would be less, it would be more of a headache to handle any possible problems - don't know if it would be worth paying extra for a new one or not...

3. Frame to keep them in. I am sure that there are alternatives to the F55 - what does Sunrise offer in US?

I mentioned this in one of my other posts - I think our messages crossed... However I did call Sunrise tech support, and they were quite firm that the F55 is a UK only model. I don't think I currently have the knowledge / skill to be able to tell if any of the US Sunrise products are close enough to the F55 to do a Burgerman type chair with his parts, etc... Do you know if anyone on the forum has done a BM chair using a US model frame? Any pointers to that sort of thing would be useful. One thing that did sound nice about the US Sunrise models is that apparently their 636 chairs use an aluminum frame, which BM said he'd like... However that is a pretty new model, so I don't know if there would be many available on the used market yet.

One of the things I've somewhat wondered about is exactly what the frame does from a functional standpoint, and how essential it is... From looking at the photos, it serves as a mounting point for the seating system and the front casters, but it wasn't clear what else it did - the motors attach to the battery tray, and so on. Long term, wouldn't it be better / simpler to build a more substantial battery box, and just hang everything else off of it

4. Control system. Like you, I favour Linux, but it is not significant, as only a settings table is uploaded. The controller choice depends upon your own requirements

I am not all that worried about getting ultimate power out of it, I was primarily thinking in terms of having something that is easy to interface with a computer for programming. My current Pride Jazzy chairs both use that three prong charger / programmer connector, which I understand to need a special (expensive) programmer box (and a different one for each chair ) while the R-net appears to use a standard USB cable and a PC...

Since I want to do more than just the basic drive functions, presumably I could also use the R-net unit's ability to drive multiple actuators and so forth.

On the flip side, I could easily be talked into a Roboteq or equivalent, if the price for an installed setup was comparable... I do like the idea of having some kind of RC control system, just so that I could move the chair around during medical visits and the like.

The other idea that the GF had, and which I'm not sure how possible it is, would be to have some kind of artificial intelligence and position sensing that would allow you to "tell" the chair to come and go to different locations. As one example, our bedroom is very cramped, when my chair is next to the bed, the GF can't get past it to her side. With the manual chair it is fairly easy for her to move it around, but she has more trouble with the power chair. It would be nice to be able to tell the chair "go sit in the hall" and have it do so w/o manual intervention, and then later tell it to come back to the bed so I could get into it... (Bonus points if it can plug itself into a charger...) Definitely doable by hand with an RC unit, but it would be even more fun if it could be automated somehow.

5. Seating. The F55 is a great platform - you can have seat squab tilt, separate backrest recline, and also the riser. The F55 riser lifts about 11 1/2 "", and is shown in the parts manual - if you have not got one, I'll find you the link to it.

I've seen the link in a couple of other threads, but didn't grab it... If you can post it easily, that might be simpler than trying to find the link elsewhere... And of course the question comes up again of what differences might exist between US / UK parts, and the new vs. used choice, though I'd be more inclined to go used since the parts aren't as critical to getting a nicely working chair.

At any rate things now look like they may be on a bit more of a hold - just got a call from the GF, she is getting laid off work next week, so we will be going back into cash-saving mode, and not spending where we don't have to until she gets a new job... (Anybody know of a Senior Java Developer slot that she could do either as work-from-home or located in the greater Boston, MA, US area?)

Ex-Gooserider

[Martin O Refurbisher]

Thanks.

I do try to keep my prices reasonable - I'm not out to make a big profit from these, just to cover costs.

Iv'e noted what everone says about compatible models and there do not seem to be any US models which are direct swaps for the F55. Also it's one thing to dream of an Ali frame, but the F55 tubular frame is a clever design and exceptionally robust. It is also not very heavy for what it is - in fact the seat subframes can easily be heavier when risers are fitted.

BM is the expert on remote control - there are many many posts by him on the subject - I suggest that you use the board search feature, but it looks like anything is possible, and you could use magnetic connectors to remote connect the charger.

If you need any more, just let me know.

Best,

Martin

[Martin O Refurbisher]

Radio Control:

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/radio-controlled-powerchair.htm



F55 parts:

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... 202008.pdf

I find this parts list is better than the on-line one, which only works with Internet Explorer, not Firefox, but does have prices.

https://parts.sunrisemedical.eu/uk/html/uk/start.htm

login of guest and password of guest gives full access - just as if you have a dealer account.

The user manual is at:

http://www.sunrisedice.com/asset-bank/assetfile/5189.pdf

and the technical manual is at:

http://www.sunrisedice.com/asset-bank/a ... /11602.pdf

Finally, the order form gives both options and new prices:

http://www.sunrisedice.com/asset-bank/a ... e/9897.pdf


Best,

Martin

[Burgerman]

Long term, wouldn't it be better / simpler to build a more substantial battery box, and just hang everything else off of it

You could easily do that. It would look pretty ugly though!

The thing is the new centre section with its battery, motor, footplate mountimg etc is actually most of the chairs design from a wheel position, and battery mount/anti tip type perspective. I thought about replacing the frame myself, since people accuse me of just hotting up an F55. And its much nore than that when you look closely. But its cheap, easily adaptable and weighs very little. So makes an easy starting point. I (and you) could easily make something better/similar but its a time and money thing. I am not a manufacturer and do this in my bedroom!

[Martin O Refurbisher]

I'm entirely in agreement with Burgerman on this - why do the equivalent of reinventing the wheel?

I like the F55, even with its many shortcomings, it is clearly a better starting point than anywhere else, in my view, based upon workign with a multitude of these, daily.

Best,

Martin

[Burgerman]

I ordered my first one (from a manual chair) in 97. As I did so I could see its obvious shortcommings and also its potential. I never actually expected to replace most of it though!

My latest one uses only the armrest tops, and uprights in unmodded form. Everything else other than the rear light cluster is either cut, shortened, thrown away, replaced, or redesigned or relocated! Seriously, I am sat here looking at one and there is almost non left uncut or that isnt replaced by something else! Oh. I use the seat back upholstery... And thats about it.

Its cheaper for me to buy a frame, and caster forks to modify, and make / aquire the rest than to start on a 500 uk pound chair now. Even new.

Its now using different faster motors, roboteq controller, lithium batteries, sat in a narrowed centre section with 6 inch wide tyres, its using a totally different front end, and shorter stronger more inboard anti tips that themselves are smaller, with almost no dimention trhe same as the original. Even the seat back is shortened and push handles cut back, and the seat base has the swing away mounts chopped away, with an extended seat "pan" in aluminium, and the front casters are drilled for the new stainless axle and kart wheels etc... So not even the caster forks escaped!

This applies to plastic parts (junk) lights, swing away footrests, millions of brackets, oem loom, battery boxes, thousands of steel bolts/bearings, wheels - both ends... Swing arms, suspension units, even pods and motors... All junk.

There a small mountain of discarded F55 parts at my house... Or there was. Much now disposed of.

This happened in a gradual process year on year since 96...

Even the frame we are talking about here has a lump 181 mm wide chopped out of it... And it no longer works (is stressed) in the same way. And the rear wheels are moved further forwards, the seat back, the motors more inboard etc etc...

[JoeC]

I think that there are a few good US based chairs to use as a start for modification. Check out this link: http://members.cox.net/henrytaber/

The S636 is hardly any different from the S626 or S646se. The S636 is just an update of those two chairs, using R-net electronics, new motors (that are significantly worse, in my opinion) and a few odds and ends changed. The frame is nearly identical, including the battery tray.

If you can't find a Quickie S626/S646 used, you can certainly find an Invacare Ranger/Torque/Storm/Arrow (all different names for nearly the same chair). If you can figure out the dimensions and shapes of brackets and spacers and whatnot, then it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to copy what Burgerman has done on the F55 with a different chair. If you can find a cheap dead chair, go ahead and post here and we can help you find the parts to get it done.

Also, good luck to your girlfriend with her job. Sadly I do not know of any leads. We'll be here when you're ready to build.

[ex-Gooserider]

First off, thanks for all the links on the F55 stuff - it does help me see more of what is going on with it, and understand the BM mods a lot better...

I am also fairly convinced on the frame thing, it was just a thought about getting rid of it, as I wasn't sure what it was really doing with all the other parts attached to the center battery box - but if it's still useful....

Burgerman, How doable do you think my notion of having the chair pre-programmed to drive itself to different locations is? It seems to me that the biggest issue would be getting the chair to figure out exactly where it is. The GF was thinking in terms of one of those little Roomba robotic vacuum cleaners, but I don't think it would work to have a several hundred pound chair doing a random walk approach to finding it's way around... Instead I figure it would need to be able to tell it's position to within an inch or two, and navigate based on that. I know that GPS signals are iffy inside a building, and they are only good to within a few feet... Is there any way to do something low power (so as to not need gov't permission) that would do positioning to within that range?

Ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

Interesting link Joe, though he doesn't give as many details as Burgerman does...

I am definitely convinced that the BM style chair is the best way to go, and that is what I'd like to end up with. Trouble with starting using a US built frame is that I don't have the practical experience to know what frames are close enough to the F55 to allow me to end up with a reasonable BM clone...

Looking on Flea-bay I'm not finding many of the Quickie chairs, but there are a lot of the Invacare models. One thing I am confused about slightly is that some of them are definitely RWD, but some look more like 6-wheel drive models, which I assume wouldn't work for doing a BM chair... Of course many are also expensive enough (especially if adding shipping costs) that it might still be cheaper to get a set of real F55 parts from Martin...

Ex-Gooserider

[Holden]

Ex-Gooserider.

Are you the person that posted a very positive review of a leg lifting product called "The Cast Handle" on Amazon? If so I'm the inventor of The Cast Handle and I wanted to get in touch with you. You can email me at jeff@casthandle.com or call my office at 336-722-2278 or my cell at 336-254-5494. Thanks so much. Jeff Holden

[ex-Gooserider]

Yes, I was... I'm currently at the Libertarian Party National Convention, so I won't be able to get back to you until after this weekend, but will be happy to talk to you...

ex-Gooserider