PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

[Burgerman]

Your Hyperion is faulty. Probably. USB, also a known problem. And why I converted mine to Bluetooth. 4 out of 8 of mine failed over the years. You need to move on. PL8 is far more reliably built. Electrically stronger. 3 times the power, 4x more balance power. And is still manufactured.

[steves1977uk]

GF and Wife hopefully not both at the same time - Go Shirley

What a lucky guy! I'd be happy if I had a GF!

Steve

[flagman1776]

I'm still using my Hyperion 1420i but I'm not using the computer with it. Admittedly I have a much simpler 10A battery. I always power down my power supply first, the Hyperion shuts down, then disconnect my charge & ballance leads.
When this H dies, I'll have to go to a in production model like the PL8 (currently).

[Andrey]

Your Hyperion is faulty. Probably. USB, also a known problem. And why I converted mine to Bluetooth. 4 out of 8 of mine failed over the years. You need to move on. PL8 is far more reliably built. Electrically stronger. 3 times the power, 4x more balance power. And is still manufactured.

What do you think Is it still possible to convert it to bluetooth? Will it work with faulty USB?

I planned to do that conversion and bought bt module before usb fault, but connection scheme in my 1420 is totally different than yours and other users on rcgroups which I found. I'm not sure how to do that correctly.

[Burgerman]

I am not sure. I converted all of mine. Because one went bad and was replaced under warranty, and its caused by earth loops, cheap power supplies. The other issue with the power supply problem I am not sure what that is either.

Do yourself a favour, get a PL8! Things move on fast in the hobby world. Its better suited to what you are doing.

[Andrey]

Do yourself a favour, get a PL8! Things move on fast in the hobby world. Its better suited to what you are doing.

I understand that. But... yeah, I'll try. Is it possible to read data from PL8 remotely, like with bt mod?

[Burgerman]

Theres a way. But the USB connection is opto isolated so safe.

[Andrey]

Is there possibility that VR2 controller doesn't work with LiFePO4 batteries by any chance?

I connected battery, turned on wheelchair and got 9 led flashes (solenoid brake code error), checked everything and still got this error. I changed batteries back to AGM and everything works again without errors.

Maybe I have to reprogram something?

[Burgerman]

It will work fine with 8S and 25.6V.

In fact 23.6v gives under voltage error. 32V or higher may give over voltage error.

[Andrey]

I have 26.7V on batteries right now. It should work I suppose?

[Burgerman]

Yep.

[Andrey]

Yep.

Don't know what it was, it works now. Feels good

Thank you! Your experience very helpful.

[scooter]

Has there been any change in technology which would allow an on board balancing charger/ power supply to be used, such that it only needs to be plugged up to start the charging process? The PL8's may not be rugged enough, plus they require interaction to start the charge cycle, not just a plug in.

If that is not possible, is it possible to have a plain on board charger, that would be limited such that it might not top off the batteries, but at least refresh more than 1/2 of the charge when the device is on the go, and would be limited to a point that it is unlikely to destroy the pack? What voltage level would be best for that operation? I am thinking something like the PL8 at home, with another way to top off at an outlet (US 120v) when on the go.

The inability to charge anywhere is something that is holding us back from leaving lead.

I understand 3.6 is the normal voltage for lithium operation. What is the ideal per cell charging voltage that would tend to be safe, insofar as not likely to burn the cells up when topping off?

[Burgerman]

I understand 3.6 is the normal voltage for lithium operation. What is the ideal per cell charging voltage that would tend to be safe, insofar as not likely to burn the cells up when topping off?

3.35V will not charge them.
3.40V will, but super slowly, and any high cell will still shoot up over well its limit as the rest of the pack approaches full.

You cant realistically charge away from home to any particular voltage alone. Because any cell that is unbalanced and higher than the others will jump up high and go over its safe voltage. Even if its just a fraction of an Ah different. If you know you have taken out say 40Ah, as you measured it, you could safely put back 35Ah however. And you must measure this. But here's the problem.

We use 50Ah from a 100Ah lead battery. So you have at very worst case, got to put back 50Ah. 8A charger? 5 hours.
But you can and should replace that 100Ah lead with 150Ah lithium And you can USE 150Ah. So now you have to put back 150Ah. THREE TIMES MORE! So an 8A charger would take 15 hours!

The PL8v2 charges at 40A (5X FASTER) at home, and around 32A approx from a 12V supply - say a car - while out. So it will allow you to put power back MUCH faster and its small and light.

No there's no decent plug and play way to do this. No dumb way. At least not one that's reliable that will last long without problems. You just need to understand what you are doing, and do it correctly.

PL8is actually cheap. If reliability worries you get 2. Compare its capability, and power, to any dumb 40A lead brick charger from china!

[expresso]

The inability to charge anywhere is something that is holding us back from leaving lead.

Hi Scooter - if you can fit a 150ah lithium pack - the chances are you never need to charge outside ever - unless you ride over 50 miles on one ride before charging - i dont know your riding habits - most users dont do 20 mile trips or rides in a day -
before i went to lithium - i didnt either - and couldnt anyway - but once i switched over - i do use my 105ah pack alot but i have to really try hard to do 40 miles before charging at home again -

this was my first summer with it and been really riding out there because i can now - there will always be a limit how far you can go either way - but if you can do 50 miles easily with a 150ah pack - the chances are slim you would use that up each day every day - maybe once or twice just for the record - but its alot of riding and took me 6 1/2 hours for a 44 mile ride - most i did - and last one for this year - - too cold now for long rides -

[Gnomatic]

PL8is actually cheap. If reliability worries you get 2. Compare its capability, and power, to any dumb 40A lead brick charger from china!

You know, the more I think about it, the PL8 seems like a pretty good deal indeed. I'm not quite ready(yet) to make the jump to lithium. Need to learn more first.

Still, I could use the PL8 as a better/faster charger for my MK's. Wouldn't cost any more really than a "regular" good high amp lead charger. And I'd start to get the feel of the PL8 while I continue to absorb info needed to go full lithium.

Also, along the same lines, the idea of forking out the $$$ for a new set of MK's next spring seems like a real waste if I'm seriously considering going full blown LiFePO4 at some point. Realistically, I don't need the range lithium offers in my neighborhood or city. A good set of lead bricks takes me everywhere I'm likely to go for that. But I like to hike offroad in hilly areas and sometimes travel to mountainous ones. In those circumstances, I'm lucky if I get 2.5hrs runtime off a new set of MK's before the low voltage alarm starts barking at me. Then my day is done and it takes FOREVER to charge with my stock charger.

[shirley_hkg]

Line them up to a 14P8S rated 24V 210AH for testing.

Found only one bad among 112 cells, and get replaced.

After balancing, 200 AH were released on the first discharge, which was stopped at cell voltage @3.0X volt. Don't want to go too low.

Cells are good and capacity seems up to standard.

Together with Nandol's 190 ah pack , that is over 400ah here , and it is a BOMB.

Satisfied with the quality of these cells , and some members want to acquire some too ..

Here is the link : http://e22a.com/h.0nKb8D?cv=AALdshWq&sm=7ff3ed


However , it will be a task to ship them overseas .

[scooter]

the chances are you never need to charge outside ever - unless you ride over 50 miles on one ride before charging-

The ability to remotely charge also includes trips many miles away from home, by either car, bus or train.

While you are right that we will be unlikely to hit this limit locally, I wonder how much "gear" will I need to take on a train trip to charge away from home. With lead, this is a 5 amp built in charger. With Lithium, it sounds like we will need 2 PL8's, 2 HEAVY power supplies in order to charge, unless a single power supply will work. My understanding is you go above 8S, you have to have 2 pl8's. I am thinking of group 24 replacements, 7P6S per pack X 2 for 43.2 volt, which if I am calculating correctly is 84ah @ 43.2v. What would be the smallest gear to charge out of town, where we do not have a car? Of course, I understand during car travel, use the car for this charging while riding between cities. I transport scooters in a small trailer.

Of course, maybe the old unit should be left lead, and used for train travel and backup, and forget the extra prep, or swap the pack for lead for such trips.

The engineer in me also wonders if a simple pull down circuit could be constructed and attached to the balance connector to keep each section from over volt during a conventional charge from a standard charger in these cases?

[scooter]

How much ventilation is required for a battery pack? In the BM3, I notice it is enclosed on 3 sides with solid steel. Is there a lot of heat associated with the charging and discharging of such lithium packs, such that good ventilation is not really needed?

[Burgerman]

They are very efficient, little heat. But you can charge at 40A continuous. So a little more heat than lead regardless.

[expresso]

Hi Scooter - well if you take long trips that way - thats different i would think - i am using 24V pack - the PSU isnt that big actually - uses two power cords the one i have - plugged into powerstrip which is plugged in the outlet -

PL8 connected to PSU and to chair - thats it - you dont need to use the PC cable when your traveling - you use the PL 8 manually alone - then you can charge up fast where ever you sleep etc, plug it in charge up - go to sleep and have 50 miles for next days use

you can guy a small carry bag for the PL8 PSU and Powerstrip - - extra cables etc, as needed -

[flagman1776]

I use the less powerful & previous generation (now discontinued) Hyperion hobby charger. (When it dies, I will move to the current offerings which right now is the PL8.) But the joy of LiFePO4 & smart charging is truely the fast charging. There's just no reason to go out with less than a full charge.

[Gnomatic]

PL8 connected to PSU .....

Hey expresso, how loud is your PSU?

[Irving]

Hi S_hkg

I read &re-read that page several times via google translate and still couldn't figure out what was being offered or how to order it.. Also those 40152 don't appear to be threaded so how do you connect them?

Line them up to a 14P8S rated 24V 210AH for testing.

Found only one bad among 112 cells, and get replaced.

After balancing, 200 AH were released on the first discharge, which was stopped at cell voltage @3.0X volt. Don't want to go too low.

Cells are good and capacity seems up to standard.

Together with Nandol's 190 ah pack , that is over 400ah here , and it is a BOMB.

Satisfied with the quality of these cells , and some members want to acquire some too ..

Here is the link : http://e22a.com/h.0nKb8D?cv=AALdshWq&sm=7ff3ed


However , it will be a task to ship them overseas .

[ex-Gooserider]

the chances are you never need to charge outside ever - unless you ride over 50 miles on one ride before charging-

The ability to remotely charge also includes trips many miles away from home, by either car, bus or train.

While you are right that we will be unlikely to hit this limit locally, I wonder how much "gear" will I need to take on a train trip to charge away from home. With lead, this is a 5 amp built in charger. With Lithium, it sounds like we will need 2 PL8's, 2 HEAVY power supplies in order to charge, unless a single power supply will work. My understanding is you go above 8S, you have to have 2 pl8's. I am thinking of group 24 replacements, 7P6S per pack X 2 for 43.2 volt, which if I am calculating correctly is 84ah @ 43.2v. What would be the smallest gear to charge out of town, where we do not have a car? Of course, I understand during car travel, use the car for this charging while riding between cities. I transport scooters in a small trailer.

Of course, maybe the old unit should be left lead, and used for train travel and backup, and forget the extra prep, or swap the pack for lead for such trips.

The engineer in me also wonders if a simple pull down circuit could be constructed and attached to the balance connector to keep each section from over volt during a conventional charge from a standard charger in these cases?

Depends on how one wires up the pack. At least in theory it should be possible to set it up sort of like a lead brick chair with multiple packs of less than 8S, and have the same sort of configuration as BM uses for his charging from the van on his lead chairs - and a similar extra plug that puts the appropriate balance wires in parallel while charging and just leave them open when in use.... (they shouldn't be connected to anything except when charging)

If one did this, it would be possible to travel with just the PL8, a power supply, and the appropriate cables.... Assuming that one doesn't use so much power that you need to recharge during the day, it doesn't have to be a huge power supply either... While BM likes to brag about his one hour recharges, using big supplies - it is also quite possible to do an overnight charge that takes 8-10 hours, using a much smaller supply....

ex-Gooserider

[expresso]

if you can fit a 150ah pack in the chair itself - that should be good for 50 miles - so you can use it during the day and then just recharge at night fully with the PL 8 while you sleep etc, - or if you need more Ah - make another ADD ON - 45ah pack hang it on the chair and connect it to the 150ah pack in the chair - then maybe 65 miles before recharging - thats alot of distance to do in one day - there be no need to charge up during the day with all the range -

leave the PL 8 PSU etc, where ever your going to be sleeping - and recharge when you get home -

[shirley_hkg]

Hi S_hkg

I read &re-read that page several times via google translate and still couldn't figure out what was being offered or how to order it.. Also those 40152 don't appear to be threaded so how do you connect them?

They are M6 threaded and actually you will have that thin topped brass nuts too .

Price in ￥ RMB

Entire battery untouched : ￥500
8 cells intact but BMS removed : ￥420
100A BMS.: ￥93
Individual cell @￥52
Bus bar : ￥2

[Irving]

so 8 cells is about 42GBP or just over a fiver each. That's pretty good. So how do you order them, there doesn't appear to be a 'buy' button..

[Burgerman]

In IE there is?

[scooter]

I noticed this charger when looking around.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/B6AC-80W-6A-Mul ... 2166335545
While I agree it does not charge very fast, a couple of these might make a good travel charger, as they have built in AC power supplies.

I searched the forum, and I see no articles pro or con. Price is good. Any thoughts if it worth it?