PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

[Burgerman]

We dont know that PG works the same way. OEM is usually all we need anyway. But it may be that if you de dongle the software, it defaults to allowing every level like the Wizard software seems to do. So the real answer may be to hack the PG software in the same way.

[ex-Gooserider]

Does this imply that a dongle-free, readily usable copy of the Wizard software has 'escaped to the wild' in a way similar to the Pilot+ OEM software?

We dont know that PG works the same way. OEM is usually all we need anyway. But it may be that if you de dongle the software, it defaults to allowing every level like the Wizard software seems to do. So the real answer may be to hack the PG software in the same way.

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Not escaped. More genetically engineered. But yes.

[Gnomatic]

And so it begins ....

[steves1977uk]

Here's my latest graph, charged at 7.5 Amps overnight...

CCS88.CP8.zip

(102.74 KiB) Downloaded 287 times

Remove the .zip extension from the CP8 file to view it in CCS.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Perfect. You could try 3.550v.

[steves1977uk]

I will in a weeks time BM! What should I lower the termination mah to?

Steve

[Burgerman]

Leave as is.

[steves1977uk]

OK, I'll leave it at 150mah.

Steve

[Gnomatic]

BM, thanks for the PL8 preset you posted yesterday for charging at 3.6v. You mentioned best to do one at a time but I could do up to 3 in parallel with that setting for self discharge testing.

If I do one at a time its going to take a long, long time for me to bet through 56 cells. My concern is, if it takes me a couple weeks to go through 56 cells, isn't that going to throw off the accuracy of the self-discharge test?

[Burgerman]

I chose a high 70mA termination and 5 Amp charge so each cell shouldn't take too long. They will be 99% full. And each the same.

if you charge say 3 at a time then they will all end up fully charged but not *exactly* the same as some start off higher and so spend longer at CV. But if you want you can do groups of 3 or 5 or 10 at a time. If you do more than 3 increase amps accordingly but not by as much. So charge say 10, at 20A, but leave the termination the same. Or reduce it a little to 30 or 40mA. So all cells end up 99.9999 full equally

But you must do all the same... So how will you divide them up?

[Gnomatic]

If I can do batches of 10, letting them 'soak' on the charger for a couple hrs when finished, I can probably get through them in a couple days, three tops. Then the plan is to toss them in the closet till sometime in March.

[expresso]

when i did mines - i used your preset BM - i havnt looked at that since i used it once just to build it -

i did each cell fully till it stopped - only a few mins each - could be 4 to 5 mins - maybe - i did do it in two days - i did it all day and night - not like i work

i then sat them in the boxes for two months - - Thanks to Scollard for the number crunching after the 2 months and recharged again same way -

i then built it with Scollards results - - Cant Complain

[Burgerman]

If you can count on your fingers you dont need scollard to add it up for you!

You just make 8 piles of cells that add up to the same amount lost total approx.

[Burgerman]

If I can do batches of 10, letting them 'soak' on the charger for a couple hrs when finished, I can probably get through them in a couple days, three tops.

They dont soak. Done is done when it says done! Thats when current falls to termination point on the PL8.

[Gnomatic]

If I can do batches of 10, letting them 'soak' on the charger for a couple hrs when finished, I can probably get through them in a couple days, three tops.

They dont soak. Done is done when it says done! Thats when current falls to termination point on the PL8.

I didn't realize that. I was going by what you posted on the first page of this thread when discussing self discharge testing

..... charge every single cell to 3.600 volts, and leave on charge afterwards for 2 hours minimum to soak. You can do this in parallel in big groups of say 10 at a time.

[expresso]

If you can count on your fingers you dont need scollard to add it up for you!

You just make 8 piles of cells that add up to the same amount lost total approx.

there must be a certain way to crunch them quickly - i know that i have to end up with 8 cells etc, to add up closely together - its how you do it to get the results - i am sure if i have no choice - i can do it - but take me a long time to get it right

Scollard got it done pretty much instantly - i was good at Math when i went to school - thats many moons ago

[Burgerman]

Add up ALL cells, divide by 8... Thats what you are aiming for in each group.

Lets say you are making a 4P and 8S battery... It lost 1448mA total!!!
Divide by 8 = 180mA PER GROUP!

So a 3mA cell and a 60mA and a 15mA and 100mA cell, makes a 178mA total for that one pile of 4 cells. Thats close to 180 right?

Now make 7 more!

* IF you find a cell that has say 300mA lost, or say a fair bit more than the rest, either don't use it or retest it. But its unlikely. All cells must be charged exactly the same way with same settings.

[expresso]

Add up ALL cells, divide by 8... Thats what you are aiming for in each group.

Lets say you are making a 4P and 8S battery... It lost 1448mA total!!!
Divide by 8 = 180mA PER GROUP!

So a 3mA cell and a 60mA and a 15mA and 100mA cell, makes a 178mA total for that one pile of 4 cells. Thats close to 180 right?

Now make 7 more!

* IF you find a cell that has say 300mA lost, or say a fair bit more than the rest, either don't use it or retest it. But its unlikely. All cells must be charged exactly the same way with same settings.

Ok that sounds good - i will try that next time i do a full chair pack - i have 24 cells for a ADD ON i will do this winter - just for fun i plan on using it on my spare outdoor chair with new tires once i get them installed - and or when i go for a long ride connected to the 105ah pack - i may leave it connected all the time there and just charge one at a time when i get home - -

i have two chargers now - i can use them both at the same time with graphs etc, ? one with the 12V for the ADD ON - the other for the full pack - unless i have time - can do one at a time -

[brianpile1]

Hi

I have just taken delivery of a new Frontier V4. I aim to do the lithium conversion once I have knackered the supplied MK gel batteries.

My wife needs to connect the charger for me. Obviously at the moment this is easy through the normal connection in the hand control unit/pod. I want to make the lithium batteries as easy as possible for her to connect. Stupid question, [1] - can the lithium batteries be charged up via the hand control unit, once suitable adjustments to the wiring loom have been made?

Stupid question [2] - the weight distribution of the chair will obviously be affected by replacing the normal batteries with lithium at roughly 50% of the weight of the gel batteries. So why I don't I leave the now-defunct gel batteries in place, and make up an external pack for the lithium batteries, which I can then hang off the back of the wheelchair. This would have the added benefit of shifting the c.of.g rearwards a little, as well as putting them in a place easier to connect to the charger,

What do you think BM?

[Burgerman]

1. no! You need 11 wires... And will be charging at up to 40A which would be 30A too much and the connector and wiring loom would melt.

2. hanging 60lb off the back will mess up the CG way more than just swapping to lithium and reduce range by dragging 2 lead batteries around at 50lb each for nothing! So no...

[Gnomatic]

Hi

I have just taken delivery of a new Frontier V4. I aim to do the lithium conversion once I have knackered the supplied MK gel batteries.

My wife needs to connect the charger for me. Obviously at the moment this is easy through the normal connection in the hand control unit/pod. I want to make the lithium batteries as easy as possible for her to connect. Stupid question, [1] - can the lithium batteries be charged up via the hand control unit, once suitable adjustments to the wiring loom have been made?

Congrats on the new chair!

I understand your desire to make this easier on your wife, but you're going to need a PL8 charger with a Sub D type connector to properly charge AND balance your lithium pack. Once you make the charging cable it'll be just a single connector from the charger to the chair, your wife won't be able to plug in in wrong. So in that way it won't be massively different than your dumb mobility charger. But there is a bit more to it, like you'll need a separate power supply for your charger. But its doable.

Stupid question [2] - the weight distribution of the chair will obviously be affected by replacing the normal batteries with lithium at roughly 50% of the weight of the gel batteries. So why I don't I leave the now-defunct gel batteries in place, and make up an external pack for the lithium batteries, which I can then hang off the back of the wheelchair. This would have the added benefit of shifting the c.of.g rearwards a little, as well as putting them in a place easier to connect to the charger,

What do you think BM?

You are correct about the weight distribution with lithium. The center of gravity of the chair will be higher, which is bad if you like to offroad or are in a hilly area. The good news is this is fairly easily compensated for by simply adding a steel or even better Lead plate under your battery packs.(on the V4 you have two separate battery compartments so you'll be building two 12v packs and connecting them) You'll have to take good accurate measurements of your battery compartments to see what you can fit. If you do it BM's way the packs will be 240mm tall. I have an old X5 that has the same battery compartments as the one on the rear of your chair. It should be able to accommodate an LiFe pack that tall. I'm not sure about your front battery compartment on the V4. You'll just have to measure and see. If clearance is tight in the front battery compartment like it is on my V6, you might be better off building your packs out of 56 x15ah headway cells like expresso's did, instead of 72 x 12 ah cells like BM. Doing it expresso's way would save you ~12mm in height. So its an option if clearance is an issue in your front battery box.

Now, keeping your MK's and just building an add-on pack is not a bad way to go either. The add-on won't be near the size or capacity as a full pack, but it will still help. Your MK's will last a lot longer, and the add-on is a good way to get your feet wet with lithium and familiarizing yourself and your wife with charging the add-on with the PL8 etc. Others here have done this.

So you have some reading to do.

Anyway, congrats on the V4 I think you'll be very pleased with it!

[brianpile1]

I thought so. Too easy/unfeasible! Thanks

[brianpile1]

I thought so. Too easy/unfeasible! Thanks Gnomatic and BM. Sorry to be thick, but do I need an electrician to wire me up a new power supply, and direct to the charger, or via a normal power socket?

[expresso]

If you dont want to do the whole chair - or cant or what ever the reason may be - you can easily build a ADD ON pack - 24 Cells - 3 rows of 15ah cells will you give you 45Ah lithium - - about 30 pounds you would be hanging in a backpack in the rear -

one wire connected to the Chairs Lead - thats it - leave it connected - you still have to make a charge cable and use the PL 8 - works fine - i use a chair this way - it freed me up alot - you should get about double the range you have now - or very close to it -

i get easy 25 miles with a 36ah ADD ON - i am making a 45ah now also - you should gain a bit more with the 45ah - maybe easy 28 Miles to 30 - brand new pair of MK 24 with 45ah ADD ON - your be fine for many years - with out changing those Lead either -

This is just an option if you dont want to do the whole chair - if you do the whole chair - yes its better overall for sure - Read up on whats involved before you dive in - your be happy either way you go -

[Gnomatic]

I thought so. Too easy/unfeasible! Thanks Gnomatic and BM. Sorry to be thick, but do I need an electrician to wire me up a new power supply, and direct to the charger, or via a normal power socket?

You're not thick, I'm still learning too. I'm just a bit farther down the road than you.

You're in the UK right? CoolIce PSU's should work for you

http://www.coolice.co.uk/cfs/coolice-psu-s.html

[flagman1776]

It IS doable. MANY here have done so.
It's not "plug & play" like dumb mobility stuff.
No, WE didn't know how when we came here. You (or someone for you) have to be willing to learn. But we will not leave you on your own. We are willing to help.
But if you are willing to learn, you'll get huge benifits. Improved range, faster charging, no more worries about running out of juice. Yes! It can be a single plug. Once the charger is set up & programed an assistance can be directed to plug in to your chair & start the charger. The plug BM describes mounts somewhere you select... convenient... say on the side frame of the chair.
It IS doable.

[brianpile1]

I thought so. Too easy/unfeasible! Thanks Gnomatic and BM. Sorry to be thick, but do I need an electrician to wire me up a new power supply, and direct to the charger, or via a normal power socket?

You're not thick, I'm still learning too. I'm just a bit farther down the road than you.

You're in the UK right? CoolIce PSU's should work for you

http://www.coolice.co.uk/cfs/coolice-psu-s.html

Thanks again, BM, Gnomatic and Flagman, for the encouragement. Yes, I'm in UK, so Coolice looks good [now I've googled it - a/c to d/c, right?] I need to see a pic of that "single connector" charge cable, [or do I mean TWO charge cables- one for the full version, and one for the alternative add-on pack?] I expect the one for the full version is on BM's website. I have a friend who is an auto- electrician, once understand this stuff, I will show him the photos.

The conversion to lithium will be worth it for the extra range alone.

Brian

[Burgerman]

I have a friend who is an auto- electrician, once understand this stuff,

I predict trouble ahead...

[steves1977uk]

Can't see this being done properly... Asking someone else to do it without any knowledge of lithium pack building and wiring is just asking for trouble ahead...

Steve