S646se - Full LITHIUM Pack Project - First Attempt

[Burgerman]

Next week, we will all be learning to build Liquid fueled rocket engines. I already had some success in the 90s and can show how its done!
Trust me its exciting and doesent always go to plan... You will need liquid nitrous oxide, kerosine, some stainless steel...

[Scollard]

Looking good Expresso. Watch your numbers and make sure you hook it all up correctly.

I think BM finally sees how it's all going to fit together.

Do I get any props for thinking outside of the box? Literally!

[expresso]

haha - good luck with that - i am good with this - i need to learn more as i go along - i may stir some interest in the summer when i can share this with others - get there reactions - i know some will take interest - but they all may thing its a real plug and play - which is almost is - in a way - but needs effort to do what it takes - which in my case means - i had to not only get all the tools needed to get it done - then learn to use them - harder part is directing others what to do also

but i got two of my PCA's who i was able to get alot done - better than i expected - just cant expect them to lift anything this size - the ADD ON is even too heavy for them - i guess the timing was right - i did get feed up this past summer - got stuck twice - battery issues - i know the limits of LEAD in distance etc. - so i either accept that and leave it alone or make a change - the winter started and i knew i had to do something to keep busy indoors or else it would be a long winter -

i REALLY only wanted to do the add on - and was just about to HIT Enter and buy the ready made pack from EV. - then i said ok - what the hell - i do the ADD ON - but didnt really thing i was going to really get this involved - - my idea was just the ADD ON - BMS to use dumb charger and move on - didnt take long - i got the PL 8 - PSU - and started the project - after that - i seen how the BMS work - and at that point - no reason to leave it - i had what i needed - getting the help from others here -

or else summer comes again and i be at the same spot as always - complaining about the batteries - and knowing i can go only this far lets say - and thats it - might as well enjoy it while i can - i am treating myself to a nice sausage onions and peppers with provolone cheese for dinner - been a while since i had a good one - home made -

some wine - take a nap - after a hard days work

[expresso]

Looking good Expresso. Watch your numbers and make sure you hook it all up correctly.

I think BM finally sees how it's all going to fit together.

Do I get any props for thinking outside of the box? Literally!

i have to say Scollard - i didnt see it this way at all - with out you helping me step by step - thinking the way you did and passing it along to me - i would not have taken on the full pack - i wasnt going to do the 72 cells the other way - i seen how it would give me issues with the space - my chair is tight - the divider is limited how much i can move it up - i have other devices there for the tilt and seat lift etc, -

but this was doable - the 90ah would be a breeze to fit - this i think 99% i can make it fit -

Scollard your a great teacher for sure - if you can teach me - you can teach anyone

BM - i know i drove you crazy over the years also - with batteries - chargers etc, - alot of us here just dont know what you guys know and comes easy to you - so patience -

so Scollard - i am good to go - ? i can finish the bottom now - locktite it - add the caps and be done with it -- then have it flipped -

yes i will check the numbers again and again for sure before i flip it back and after again - the top Row - Neg. is Cell 43 i think - starts there - from left to right - 0 to 8 -

i have the Green light to finish it up ? the bottom at least


or should i say - if i can learn it - many others can also even if you think you cant - with the right teacher and help - you can

[Burgerman]

I think BM finally sees how it's all going to fit together.

Nope! Seems to me the large bit is too big, and the small bit has nowhere to go! But I dont know the chair... Will see soon enough.

[expresso]

Ok - all done on the bottom - locktite - caps - ready to be flipped - you can see the tray it will sit in fits perfect - just needs to be flipped over right in the tray - and i can work on the top -

[expresso]

sitting in the tray - upside down -

[expresso]

flipped over and in the tray - this is the way it will go right in the chair - i just have to figure out the layout on the wiring on top etc, - and i think its better if i built up the inner rows to bring it up to level with the orange tabs - can use sheets or rubber and some foam i have thats used for computers - glue on one side and foam for cushion on the other - to quiet in the inside of computer cases - which i never used for that purpose but many other uses i find for it -

the wiring lay out - i am thinking of leaving the first row of screws for the balance wires and charge wires only -

the 2nd screw for the Chairs Main leads only - pos an neg to anderson for the chair power -

and 3rd screw to run wires to the top 7th row -

would that be fine - or any reason i cant use the 2nd screw for the chairs main power - or do I need to use the first row ?

[expresso]

pics

[Burgerman]

Now I see what you are doing. That seperate top layer only needed two thick wires. one at each end and just some thin balance wires really. But the thick cables wont hurt. Just bulky.

[expresso]

Now I see what you are doing. That seperate top layer only needed two thick wires. one at each end and just some thin balance wires really. But the thick cables wont hurt. Just bulky.

i used 12 AWG for the top layer 7th Row -

i am going to use 8AWG for the Chair Main power - Anderson end to the chair -

its ok if i connect the chair main cable i make to the 2nd row screw ?

or i can put the charge leads to the 2nd screw - and leave the balance wires on the first screws with the Chair mains leads on the pos and neg -

that wont matter either way ?

it does look nice - i am trying to make it as neat as i can - with the routing of the wires - etc, - but i do feel i want to fill in the Row with rubber and layer of foam - just to bring it up to the orange tabs so the top layer of Cells can lay flat on top evenly -

i just hope it ends up NO MORE than 9 /12 high less even better - i will still try to raise the divider up if i can - maybe next week i can do that - and leave the chair empty till i finish this pack -

i was also thinking of surround the pack with a layer of plastic i have - it fits inside the tray itself and wrap around it - making opening on each sides for the wires only -

i worry about dirt getting in there - or what ever from riding -

[Burgerman]

They are all connected together. Doesent matter where the connection is to. In an ideal world it would be to the centre. But for what we are doing it not important. Just not the seperate top cells.

[expresso]

They are all connected together. Doesent matter where the connection is to. In an ideal world it would be to the centre. But for what we are doing it not important. Just not the seperate top cells.

the top cells 7th row - i was going to connect them to the 3rd screw down on the bottom pack -

is that not OK to do ? i will run the wire under the top Row and bend up to connect -



first set of screws - balance wires and charge wire -

2nd set - Chair main power wires -

3rd set - for the top 7th row - OR


first set Chair mains and balance wires -

2nd charge wire cable

3rd - for the top 7th row

[Burgerman]

Anywhere.

[expresso]

Ok i decided to put the Main Chair power leads on the 3rd row down screw and snaked that wire under the buss bar and down to the front - its a thick wire 8 AWG so wast tight under the buss bar and kinda bends it to be screwed down - but works -

IS It ok to keep it under the buss bar instead of over it ?

i am trying to keep the top of the buss bars clean and not bulky because i will add a layer of Foam to build that up and make it level to the Orange tabs sticking up - then one sheet of rubber and lay the top 7th row on it - so it has a nice stable foundation to lay on -

the charge leads i will put on the 2nd row screw

the balance leads in the front along with the rings going to the 7th top layer - short wires 2 inches and using the Marine Rings with 3M adhesive for those and the remaining few wires - reason is First - those wires are very shot going to the front row i found to work - the solder rings i have are made for 8 AWG thicker - and they are not really crimping good with the 12 AWG i am using - they worked well with 10 AWG and 8 AWG -

i went to the Marine rings and Crimped them good - Pull tested - then heatshrinked it - its very very tight - its not coming apart on its own - i felt better this way than trying to crimp solder the larger Ring on a small wire and then they would be so close both ends - etc,

here are the pics - what do you think about the wire being run under the buss bar ? its ok or some reason why i shouldnt keep it that way ?

thanks

[expresso]

i had very thin solder wire - what i did also when it was tight to make the solder fit in the Ring to solder when the Wire is thick already - i wrapped some of the thin solder around the wire - then stuck the wire in - crimped and heated it with torch

i did the same thing with the Marine Rings - not alot just a few turns around it - crimped it - was very strong - i figure when i heatshrinked it down - it maybe would melt the thin solder i wrapped around also and seal the deal -

it feels very strong when all done - so i will finish it off with those - correct wire size for the Ring -

[Burgerman]

Soldered is good.

[expresso]

i hit a wall - i am having a very hard time to connect that 7th row in the front - the 12 awg wire silicone - its not working for me -too thick and hard to bent to get a tight nice bent - since its a short wire - or even if i made it longer -
the rings are hard to make work -

so my question is - Can i use either 14 awg or even 16 awg which i have enough of - that wire i can make bent much easier - its not a silicone shell - - i though the silicone was the ticket - but not for this purpose -

i already have the 4 wires in the rear 12 awg connected and thats fine - i can get those to the top row in the rear - since its straight - i am referring to the front -

another thing - the crimper i have - i think i was using it wrong - the tension was a bit looser when using it - i adjusted the screw - i assumed it was just to make it easier to squeeze it down - but i know believe that adjusts how much it crimper the ring also - i had half dozen fail the pull test - and i couldnt figure out why - i wasted a whole pack trying to figure out the length of wire needed - getting a good crimp etc, - but this morning it adjusted the screw again and its harder to squeeze the handle now when using it - i tried another one this way and it crimped good - cant pull that one apart - i have someone else do the pull test - they are stronger - i do it also just to see for myself - if i pull it off - its really bad
if they pull it off - its just as bad - if they cant pull it off - i have to say its good -

so maybe the adjustment on the crimper solved the bad crimp issues i was having which was my fault - etc, -

moving on to the solder rings - those are made for 8 awg wire - so harder to crimp those good with 12 awg - but i add solder and that can work very good if i did it that way - but then again the rings are longer than i can use since the wire is short and then heatshrink - makes it very hard to bend how you need it to bend -

so i am back to square one - Cant connect 7th row the way i though -

i cant use 12 awg wire i have silicone - i dont have reg. 12 awg to test - i do have a roll of 16 wire which would work bending it etch - i then do need to figure out the rings for that one ? if i should get bare rings and then crimp - then heatshrink my own over it - not sure if my crimper works with bare rings or if it needs the insulation on it also -

i just done know now what my next move is - frustrating !!!

Can i use 14 AWG or 16 AWG to connect that top roll ? if i can then i go from there

[expresso]

anyone can link me to some Rings that are smaller in size that i can do either solder or crimp solder etc, - the rings i have seem both to be larger than need making it harder to attach

i cant seem to find smaller rings like the copper solder rings i have that are too big 8 awg size - any links to items that i can try -

some pics - which was a bad day yesterday - nothing i did worked - wasted all the heatshrink i had left in the size i needed also - i need to make a short list of items i need to reorder - i am just not sure of the items yet -

this is the 16 awg wire i have - i dont have 14 AWG but if i need to get it - thats fine - i still think 14 awg would be easier to work with than what i do have now - and not silicone wire -

[expresso]

i dont like how this fits - very hard to make it work - bending it - too short - rings too large making it hard also - too thick wire - silicone case not good choice for this -

i really like to use 14 awg or even 16 awg wire to attach the top 7th row - Can this be fine ?

if yes - then the next thing is - are there small rings i can solder for this size wire - or crimp solder - or just crimp - should i get bare rings or insulated rings - ?

if i get bare rings - crimp it - so i can see it and try it - then heatshrink over that - would be just as good as an insulated ring ?

i also found insulated crimp rings with built in solder - so when you heatshrink it down - i am guessing the solder would melt also - that sounds like a good all around ? not cheap though -

at this point - i have to get what will work for me and get over this -

[expresso]

no progress yesterday forward - just wasted all my rings -

what do you think of the layer of foam i am thinking of using to build up the space to make it level - then add a sheet of rubber over it -

thats the foam that came with the Cells packing - i knew i would have use for it - one day -

[Burgerman]

should be ok.

[expresso]

should be ok.

what part of my question is OK - its ok to use the Foam ? yes -

what about 14 awg wire for the connection of the 7th top row - or is 16 awg ok for that also ?

terminals - bare - crimp so i can see it - then heatshrink ?

If i did want to solder the 14 awg wire - what ring lug size would i need - i cant seem to find any smaller than the 8 awg size i have - i like to find something like this - but good for a 16awg wire

http://www.amazon.com/Install-Bay-Coppe ... ge_o06_s00

should i get some non insulated rings ? - and heatshrink over them ? can you point me in the direction - what kind of solder rings can i use for 16 awg wire ? i cant seem to find any -



http://www.wiringdepot.com/store/p/2695 ... inals.aspx

are these any good ?

[expresso]

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0159CAXMI/ref ... QJ4RU9D22W

[Burgerman]

First I dont know what you are connecting to what, or how the pack is wired etc... So I am guessing.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... g&_sacat=0
any sized terminal you can think of. Why do you need heatshrink? You already have a bolt, metal bus bars etc. As for cable size I dont understand your strange sizes. You need 6mm sq for the END TWO. Where the power comes from. The plus and minus. All the others can be smaller, balance wire sized... If you want. Or bigger - but to keep it simple do all the same.

[expresso]

i crimped this with the rachet with no insulation - but i used instead of the yellow spot to crimp - i used the smaller Blue spot because i removed the insulation jacket - just wanted to see the wire stick out -

this is how it came out - i know the wire is too long out the front - was just testing - seems strong - will have to do more testing on the 14 AWG wire i ordered with the correct size rings for it -

my concern now is the Rachet crimper i have - not sure if its made for crimping Non insulated rings - - one way or another i have to get this done - wire has to be 14 or 16 awg - cant use thicker than that -

next is the connection - i cant get it to stay put just crimping it - then i have to solder also which means its better if i use uninsulated and try to add some solder in there - - then heatshrink over it - that should be fine

whats bothering me is WHY it seems i cant get a good crimp - driving me nuts - the crimper is now back to the way i received it - tension wise - its very hard to now - but yet i feel something is wrong - either i move holding the wire in there or the girl moves or its not sitting in the correct spot when crimped -

this is the last one i did - doing till sometime next weekend - wont get the others till Wed. - when i will practice some more on best way for me to get this done - everyone i see - they grab it - crimp it - perfect - i do it - dosnt work -

i only really used it for the balance wires before - and that was good - i did have a issue for a few because i changed the tension on the crimper which i put back now -

[Burgerman]

If i did want to solder the 14 awg wire - what ring lug size would i need - i cant seem to find any smaller than the 8 awg size i have - i like to find something like this - but good for a 16awg wire

You DO want to solder them... Crimps on soft thin terminals are useless. Bolt it to something. Grab the cable and pull hard. It will just come apart.
The END two conections to your extra bit, need much bigger cables than that!

[Burgerman]

Crimps on your balance cables are also a bad idea. Sooner or later you will live to regret it.

A properly crimped cable is a very careful engineering job with BETTER terminals with much more metal, carefully sized for the cables, with a crimper that costs 100 times more. Even then, they pull out in all but small sizes. Did you read the post I added on crimping?

[expresso]

Crimps on your balance cables are also a bad idea. Sooner or later you will live to regret it.

A properly crimped cable is a very careful engineering job with BETTER terminals with much more metal, carefully sized for the cables, with a crimper that costs 100 times more. Even then, they pull out in all but small sizes. Did you read the post I added on crimping?

thats a done deal now - it was strong - heat glued down also over it -

like you dont understand american wire guage AWG - size - i dont get the MM size - compared to AWG size - have no idea what 6mm sq is - in AWG size -

i am using those wires for the connection to the 7th row to the rest of the pack - like you said before - using the Wires instead of buss bars to connect the 7th row - -

the wires i have already connected to the bottom of the pack - are 12 AWG size - are you saying that size is not thick enough ? for the bottom 1 3 5 7 - part - that size wire is the same thickness as the charge cables from the PL 8 with the built in fuses -

i was going to use that size also for the Connection to the Front of the 7th row - 0 2 4 6 8 -

the problem i am having is even that size is too thick for me to try to connect it - - i was hoping i can use a smaller thickness wire 14 awg whic is a step down - to finish it -


your saying the two front ends only 0 and 8 - should be thicker or at least 12 AWG - ? which is the same size of the PL 8 charge wires - i am having a problem using that thickness in the front -

i understand i can use a thinner wire for 2 4 6 - only -

i already have the PL 8 size charge wire in the rear part for 1 3 5 7 - connection -

i can leave that alone now - ?


this is the wire i want to use - to make it easy for me to bend - etc. http://www.amazon.com/Remington-Industr ... ge_o02_s00

this is what i need to connect - top row to the bottom pack

[Burgerman]

You manage to make every post almost impossible to understand.
I dont know what size your cables are without looking up stuff...

Last attempt! You need thick wires to the ENDS of your extra bit that sits on top. 6 sq mm is fine. All the other connections can be small wires.
You NEED to solder the balance wires. Because sooner or later it will fall apart of go high resistance or something and you will think its a bad cell, balance issue or something.

Crimps alone, are great for DIY teenagers fitting spotlamps to their cars... OR done proffesionally with absolute precision and manufacturer supplied equipment on a production line.
Because a typical DIY crimp with a thin soft terminal is useless. No matter how its done. And glue / heat shrink wont make a bit of difference to future oxydation.