Quantum Blast 850 modification & rebuild

[ex-Gooserider]

I finally got some of my wiring figure out, isolated the Seat tilt power harness & removed all onboard charger stuff.

Can anyone recommend a good weatherproof quick connect three pin connecter for the tilt harness?

I also need to shorten most of my cables, they're all extra long. Is there an easy replacement for the 4 wire motor connectors?

I'm not sure how the box you pictured works, or hooks up... What I had on my Redman project chair was a P&G ALM (Actuator / Lights Module) module that had a Redel cable and plug just like the cable that went to the joystick pod, and which plugged into the second Redel socket on the power module... The module I have could control at least 4 actuators (tilt, recline, and each leg) plus head / tail lights and turn signals. (It was intended for use with a 7-button Joystick pod) The module had sensors in it to detect what hardware was actually present and only gave the options to operate the stuff that was actually connected...

The wiring was pretty simple, just two wires to each actuator and set of lights....

My first choice for any sort of moderate power application, such as an actuator, are the small 15/30/45A Anderson Power-Poles.... They aren't weatherproof as such, but are OK, and you will see a LOT of them used on power chairs by manufacturers... I think they are an excellent choice for anything that takes more than an Amp or two...

Not sure about the Pilot + motor and battery connectors, they do exist and I've seen part numbers mentioned in the past, but I don't have them handy at the moment...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Although many types of 3rd party and some Anderson weather proofings are available. But not really needed.

[hotwheels_75]

I'm not sure how the box you pictured works, or hooks up...
[ex-Gooserider

There's 2 serial type cables that come off the actuator & limit switches. One is for power seat motors the other for the limit switches. They are mercury limit switches which prevent the chair from driving while tilted past a set angle. There's also a P&G control cable that connects the seat box to the second socket on the controller. When I want to tilt, I press the mode button on the pilot + joystick pod, it goes into tilt mode. I push the joystick forward & the seat tilts back. Each time I let go & push forward again the seat tilt reverses direction. The power harness runs from the front panel back to the seat actuator. It has 3 wires & a 3 pin plug that connects to the actuator too.

This is the 3 wire harness I wanted a plug for, but I might just splice it into the existing cable & leave the red,black & blue connector at the other end. In the second photo the wires are just stuck in the existing connection for testing.

I think I can figure out the rest of the cables. Until I have to figure out a charging setup anyway lol but for now I think I can just use an external charger through the joystick port?

Id like to add lights at some point too.

Appreciate the info!

[ex-Gooserider]

Makes a bit more sense now...

The box and how it functions is a programming function, not wiring.... The basics are that you have a data cable to the motor control box, and harnesses for the actuators and limit switches. I'm not sure if you are getting the power for the electronics in the seat control box and for the actuators, from a separate power lead or through the cable to the motor controller.

The power harness runs from the front panel back to the seat actuator. It has 3 wires & a 3 pin plug that connects to the actuator too.

Not sure what you are talking about in terms of 'the front panel'

The red black and blue connector in the second picture is a set of the small 15/30/45A Anderson power poles, probably using the 15A pins from what size the wire looks like...

The black connector in the 3rd picture looks like something from either Molex or AMP, probably Molex. (examine it closely, including taking that cover off, to see if you can find a brand name!) It doesn't look like anything that is proprietary...

If I had to identify it, I'd probably go to one of the online distributor sites like Digikey, and use their parametric search to look for a 3 pin "wire to wire" or "wire to panel" type connector and then look at the data sheets for any connector that looks like a match. Get dimensions on the connector body and compare them to the data sheet....

Alternatively go to the manufacturers site, and look at the different 'families' and narrow it down that way....

Other than duplicating it if you need to replace bits, I would not try to change any of the wiring between the seat control box and the actuators or switches. Similarly, you definitely don't want to mess with the cable between the seat box and motor control box.

IF you have an additional power harness from the seat box to the battery harness, you can rework that as you see fit as part of the general wiring cleanup, just stay with appropriate size wires / connectors....

What I have started doing on my project chairs is to add several pairs of the small Andersons, using AWG 12 or 14 wire, to the main battery harness, so that I have available power supply connection points for any accessories that I either already have, or might want to in the future...

Also it is worth considering doing the direct connection routine for charging and NOT going through the XLR plug in the joystick. There are lots of reasons for this which I'm not going into now, and the only downside is that you lose the inhibit that keeps you from driving off with the charger plugged in...

ex-Gooserider

[hotwheels_75]

Makes a bit more sense now...


Not sure what you are talking about in terms of 'the front panel'

Sorry
Front panel is just part of the original shroud & base cover, but the front section where several wires connected. There,s a socket for the charger cord, the amp meter to show charging status, a fuse for the charger & another socket where the joystick cable plugs in.

That panel has been removed as it will no longer fit & the only socket I need now is for the joystick controller cable.

The black connector in the 3rd picture looks like something from either Molex or AMP, probably Molex. (examine it closely, including taking that cover off, to see if you can find a brand name!) It doesn't look like anything that is proprietary...

That black connector is a split off the socket that the joystick cable plugs into, it doesn't have a cover, it's moulded plastic. The long PG controller cable in the following pic, goes from that socket to the controller box, then there's a second shorter cable from that joystick socket that has that black molex connector on it. It plugged into the original harness That powers the seat actuator & connected the onboard charger. I removed all onboard charging stuff, isolated the seat power harness, but the mate to that black molex connector has much lighter gauge wires coming out of it. I should still be able to reuse it though, since that's essentially how it was set up from factory, and the wires that come directly off the actuator are an even lighter gauge. It just seemed weird that a 20 awg harness connected to an 18 awg harness & that connects to what looks like 22 or 24 awg wire.

It's a bit of a confusing mess and difficult to explain in text… Hope I made sense.

Also it is worth considering doing the direct connection routine for charging and NOT going through the XLR plug in the joystick. There are lots of reasons for this which I'm not going into now, and the only downside is that you lose the inhibit that keeps you from driving off with the charger plugged in...

ex-Gooserider

Ok I have no problem doing that.
Thanks!

[rlnguy]

If you remove the on-board charger, you will probably have to reprogram the inhibits.
Not a big deal if you have PC programmer for the P+ control.
I've had to do that on a couple Pride chairs now. I don't remember if it was level 2 or 3 inhibit, though.
It might be possible, though I have not tried, to leave the charger plug in the harness, and add a jumper, to simulate the charger being there.
Of course, if putting in a jumper, make sure you don't jump the + and - that would be a bad thing.........
Good luck.

[Burgerman]

Wouldn't be bad for very long!

[hotwheels_75]

If you remove the on-board charger, you will probably have to reprogram the inhibits.
Not a big deal if you have PC programmer for the P+ control.
I've had to do that on a couple Pride chairs now. I don't remember if it was level 2 or 3 inhibit, though.
It might be possible, though I have not tried, to leave the charger plug in the harness, and add a jumper, to simulate the charger being there.
Of course, if putting in a jumper, make sure you don't jump the + and - that would be a bad thing.........
Good luck.

I wondered if that was going to be an issue, however after removing the charger & its wiring, then testing with the actuator connected directly it still seemed to all function. I need to confirm to be sure but my helper has been sick so the project has been temporarily sidelined. I do have a copy of pc software but no cable yet. Have a friend that has one I can borrow.

I did mean to ask about this relay that was in the charger/ actuator harness. Hard to see but on the side it has the following:

1.0A 30VDC
0.5A 125VAC
0.3A 60VDC

& on top is:
Omron CSV-1

Anyone give me some insight on if it'll still be needed? I googled it but found little info.

[LROBBINS]

Sure it isn't a C5V-1 rather than CSV-2?

If it's this, I still don't know what function it served on your chair, but it is obviously for something like a sensor or inhibit line, not for any motor/actuator current.

[hotwheels_75]

Sure it isn't a C5V-1 rather than CSV-2?

Omron.jpg

If it's this, I still don't know what function it served on your chair, but it is obviously for something like a sensor or inhibit line, not for any motor/actuator current.

Yes, it most likely is a G5V-1. There's some glue right over the lettering & my eyes aren't what they used to be!
That's exactly what it looks like.

My uneducated guess was that it was part of the charger setup & prevented the charger from sending current directly to the actuator? Or it prevents the actuator from functioning when the charger was active. Like I said, everything seemed to function without it.

[rlnguy]

I'm pretty sure the charger would only provide a drive inhibit, so actuators probably do work, with or without the charger connected.
It sounds like you have the means to make the changes, if need be, so that's good.

[ex-Gooserider]

It looks like they are doing some strange things with the joystick cable...

In a strictly stock (non-pride) Pilot+ setup the battery power goes to the center connector on the power module. The motors plug into the two motor connectors. There is a Redel cable, which has no splices or other stuff in it, which goes between the joystick pod and either one of the two Redel jacks on the power module. In chairs with controlled through the joystick actuators, there is a second "ALM module" which has another Redel cable which plugs into the other Redel jack on the power module....

The ALM module and the joystick pod are both powered through the Redel cables, and the XLR charger plug in the joystick module also charges through the Redel cable (it is one of the reasons why you should never try to put more than 6-8A through that plug...)

If you look at the Redel cable, it has 2 large wires, and 4 small ones. I forget the exact sizes off the top of my head, but IIRC the large wires are AWG 18 or 20, and the small ones are AWG 24 or 26. The large wires carry power from the Power module to the Joystick pod and ALM, while the small wires are signalling. It used to be thought that the small wires were doing CANBUS, but there was a thread a while back where some reverse engineering was done, and it turns out that two of the wires are actually used for a serial bus, and one is an inhibit line, with the last one being seemingly unused... The power wires are directly tied to the battery, so they are always 'live' - they have to be to allow charging when the chair is off and to feed the power switch in the joystick module.

It appears that in your chair, they are breaking into the Redel cable between the joystick pod and the power module. This is where they are tying in the feeds from the on-board charger, and tapping off power to your actuator box...

It still isn't real clear how everything on that front panel ties together, but it looks to me like you could replace the power leads to your actuator box with a hard wired connection to the batteries, and then replace that panel and everything connected to it with a more normal Redel cable between the joystick and power module.

The only possible issue is that as Ringuy mentioned, you might have a problem with the inhibit from the onboard charger. This is something that can be fixed in programming, if it is an issue...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

The ALM module and the joystick pod are both powered through the Redel cables, and the XLR charger plug in the joystick module also charges through the Redel cable (it is one of the reasons why you should never try to put more than 6-8A through that plug...)

Well they all quote 12A max. I have a PL8 profile set to 12A to charge stock-chairs, seems OK just about. Cable gets warm.

[ex-Gooserider]

IMNSHO, if a cable is getting warm then you are pushing it to hard.... The cable is usually the most robust point in terms of low resistance, and resistance causes heat, so you are potentially having other parts, like the connections in the joystick pod getting more than just warm....

Also that 12A rating on the connector is for a brand new part in perfect condition - add a few thousand plug / unplug cycles and a bit of corrosion on the contacts and it's internal resistance is going to go up - more heat and shorter life on the connector....

ex-Gooserider

The ALM module and the joystick pod are both powered through the Redel cables, and the XLR charger plug in the joystick module also charges through the Redel cable (it is one of the reasons why you should never try to put more than 6-8A through that plug...)

Well they all quote 12A max. I have a PL8 profile set to 12A to charge stock-chairs, seems OK just about. Cable gets warm.

[Burgerman]

I only have so much patience! And they all claim 12A is safe in the literature. So far, not a problem!

[hotwheels_75]

That all makes sense. I'll keep it in mind if I want to really streamline things. For now I have eliminated everything but the joystick socket from the front panel. Everything seems to function fine.

I would like to shorten my motor cables. The wires seem very lite, 14 awg for the power cables & 20 awg for the brakes. I considered swapping the original connector for a Anderson on power & xt90 on brake cables. Lightest Anderson I saw was for 10 awg. Do they come for lighter gauge wires, will the 10awg work with 14awg wire?

[LROBBINS]

You're kidding. AWG 14 is just 2 mm2. For the Dynamic PM2 power module, for which I have the manual, the spec is a minimum size of 4 mm2 for motor wires up to 400 mm long, and an extra 0.5 mm2 for every 200 mm over that, with the added comment "Generally, the larger the motor conductor size, the better the wheelchair performance will be." I would imagine that other controller manufacturers say much the same thing. AWG11, if it existed, would be 4.17 mm2, and AWG10 is 5.26 mm2. Even if you have to make (good) splice joints near the controller and motor ends, it would be best to substitute those under-sized wires. Dynamic specs 0.5mm2 for the brakes, and AWG 20 is 0.52 mm2 so they are not under sized.

What gauge wires were used in the battery to controller harness? Bet they're undersized as well.

[hotwheels_75]

You're kidding. AWG 14 is just 2 mm2. For the Dynamic PM2 power module, for which I have the manual, the spec is a minimum size of 4 mm2 for motor wires up to 400 mm long, and an extra 0.5 mm2 for every 200 mm over that, with the added comment "Generally, the larger the motor conductor size, the better the wheelchair performance will be." I would imagine that other controller manufacturers say much the same thing. AWG11, if it existed, would be 4.17 mm2, and AWG10 is 5.26 mm2. Even if you have to make (good) splice joints near the controller and motor ends, it would be best to substitute those under-sized wires. Dynamic specs 0.5mm2 for the brakes, and AWG 20 is 0.52 mm2 so they are not under sized.

What gauge wires were used in the battery to controller harness? Bet they're undersized as well.

Wish I was joking. The wiring on this thing is ridiculous. The power wires to the controller are the only decent ones at 8awg. The motor harness's power wires are 14awg & are approximately 33" long. They plug into the short adapters that plug into the controller, the adapter wires are 12awg power & 16awg for brakes.

Is it hard to replace the wires right to the inside of the motors? I have a spare set of the same motors except they were off a quickie. Would they be compatible? I was told the motors were identical.

[Burgerman]

Its not easy...

However I have already melted 4.5 sq/mm motor cables.

[hotwheels_75]

Its not easy...

However I have already melted 4.5 sq/mm motor cables.

Ya we took my spare motor apart, it doesn't look easy. I'll likely try to splice in some heavier wire as suggested. Did you re-wire yours right to the brushes?

[Burgerman]

No, I chose better motors.

I saw a few that were likely to smoke. The F55 motors I converted to 4 wires instead of 2. Because it was easy. Blades on each brush. The Groove motors, I shortened as much as possible and fitted Anderson 50'S.

Old page...
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3-roboteq.htm

[hotwheels_75]

No, I chose better motors.

I saw a few that were likely to smoke. The F55 motors I converted to 4 wires instead of 2. Because it was easy. Blades on each brush. The Groove motors, I shortened as much as possible and fitted Anderson 50'S.

Old page...
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3-roboteq.htm

Thanks for that link, I'd been searching through the site for that info. What are those blue connecters on your brake wires

[Burgerman]

Some model plane gold plated ones. Superseded now for the most part by the yellow ones. XT60 would be the ones.

[hotwheels_75]

If I rewire my motors with 10 awg wire, will I have to change settings in the programming ?

Is there a certain type of wire I should use?

[Burgerman]

Use heatproof. But if its SHORT, then don't bother. But also if those motors have such weedy wires they are unlikely to be very powerful, will be high impedance. Programming, in theory yeas, as you lower the motor compensation required. So it may be more jumpy...

[ex-Gooserider]

The smallest size Anderson connectors are referred to as the 15/30/45A size, and you have several on the chair according to the pictures you've posted.... The way all the different Anderson connectors work is that you get 'shells' - either for individual wires in the "Power-Pole" series, or for 2 (or three, but we don't see those on chairs) in the "SB" series, and then pins that go on the wire ends, and snap into the shells...

The battery leads on chairs usually use either the SB-50 or PP-75 series shells, and are good for wire as large as AWG 6 (my personal choice, BM uses 10mm^2, which is about AWG 7 per the charts, US folks need to go to AWG 6 or 8, I like to go bigger on principle)

There are several larger series that go into the hundreds of amp ratings, but we don't use them...

The smaller size has three different pin sizes that fit them, ranging from AWG 18-20, to AWG 10. The current rating on a given pin is essentially that of the wire size it was intended to be used with....

ex-Gooserider

[hotwheels_75]

Just curious, are the little copper looking metal tabs on the wire, that connect to the brushes, something that can be purchased or replaced?

Preparing to do some rewiring & just looking into how difficult it would be to run new wires right to the brushes. The motors are Electrocraft E702.

[rustyjames]

If they're available, I'd say Eurton would be a good place to start: http://store.eurtonelectric.com/

[hotwheels_75]

If they're available, I'd say Eurton would be a good place to start: http://store.eurtonelectric.com/

Any idea what they'd be called? I've been searching but haven't found anything.

[rustyjames]

Fortistatofthelibrakruanz? . Sorry, I have no clue on that one.