Quickie P222 SE motors ?

[expresso]

Hi - i finally got my vendor to get me the 222 SE -

i will be picking up my new chair in a few days - i just noticed something on the Sunrise Medical site

they have changed joystick offered on the 222 Se - electronics are now R-Net and motors are Linix -

but my chair was purchased a month ago so - i got the pilot plus joystick - - dont know what electronics i got or motors - but i dont think i got the new motors -

now the question is - i wonder why they changed ? i hope its not because of problems with older motors etc. - because i most likly got the older motors

does anyone know what kind of motors they use on the 222 se model -

i tried the 636 first and wasnt bad - i just wanted the speed of the 222 se - but i notice the motors from the 636 look similiar to the new motors they are using on the 222 Se -

they are geared motors i think - you can hear them when riding - compared to my current 220 - -

can anyone give me any info on the motors they use on the 222 SE- electronics - pilot joystick -

are they any good ? durable - reliable ?

thanks - once i get the chair - i will take some pics of the motors - labels - and post it back -

[Burgerman]

No idea about the motors. But the Pilot plus systems are now finished for some time. Can be obtained by special order but they now cost more than the R-net systems do.

The pilot was available in 50, 80, and 100 amp versions. All really the same, but different cost/firmware.

The R-net is available in 90 (cheaper with built in actuator / lighting outputs I think) or 100 amp versions, with a couple of secs (5?) boost to 120 amps. Which makes little real difference other than on say a ramp. But the biggest change is that the R-net is more efficient, so doesent get as hot under load. This means less power rollback when the going gets tough/hot...

[expresso]

thanks - if you look at the sunrise site now - it shows that the new chair features etc. - on the new order form - starts on Monday 5/21/12

thats tomorrow for me - when i ordered my chair - it was about a month ago and the order form had the pilot remote - etc, - this all changed on the website in the past week or so - i last looked at it to look up my chair serial and it was as the same - then i looked yesterday and it changed everything almost

do you have no experience or knowledge of the motors they used on the 222 Se - do you know if they have used gears recently or are they brushless - gearless
would you know what the 220 motors are ? mines is about 8 years old - 2 pole motors -

what do you think of the pilot remote - in general - does it function ok - accurate battery indicators ? i dont know what to think - i mean theres nothing i can do anyway now - if my new chair at least functions the same as my current 220 chair - just faster - that would be a very good thing

do you know if one type of motor works better than the other - like - geared motors compared to gearless - brushless etc,

maybe once i take a picture of the motor label - post it - maybe someone can figure it out - if it has a label on it

thanks for all your input -

[ex-Gooserider]

Never heard anything particularly bad about the Pilot+ series of joysticks and controllers, other than the lack of power problem that all chair controllers have. There is no such thing as getting a truly accurate battery indicator with lead acid batteries, the nature of their chemistry makes it impossible, but the Pilot+ indicator is no worse than anyone else's... If you do have a Pilot+ joystick pod, your controller will also be Pilot+, as the electronics modules on a chair are a system, and if designed to work together all will be from the same controller "family" - there is no "mix & match" compatibility....

The motors are mostly independent of the electronics, so I don't know what the brand of motors will be, but they are going to be geared, as the only folks that ever did gearless-brushless motors as far as I know is Invacare, and I believe they have discontinued them.

The biggest variable in geared / brushed motors, is whether the motors are two pole, or four pole. You can tell which you have on most motors by looking at the side of the motor on the end opposite the gearbox. You will see a band of metal as part of the motor body, with either two or four large plastic screw heads on it. These are your brush holders, and the number of holders is the number of poles the motor has. Four poles are better than two, but either type will do a reasonable job for most users.

Otherwise, appearance doesn't mean a lot. Other than mounting hardware, the insides of the gear motors are fairly similar, except for the gear ratios in the box, which isn't something you can see from the outside.

Hope this helps,
ex-Gooserider

[expresso]

hi - yes thanks alot - i didnt know most motors are geared - i figured you would hear them more if they were geared -

i know they are going to be 4 pole - my current chair is two pole - which i cant say is bad - since it never let me down and i got decent speed all the time -
6.5 - not sure what it does now - its over 8 years - sometimes i do feel a little slower -

so i know they are 4 pole - and now you tell me they are geared also - ok - reason i asked is i tried the 636 with motors that made much more noise than my current motors - you sort of hear the gears moving etc, - so i didnt think mines were geared because i dont hear the same sound -

with the 222 se - they just switched motors to what looks to be the same as the ones on the 636 i tried out - only faster speed -

would you know or anyone have any experience with the 222 se motors - ? since i am %100 sure i didnt get the new motors - which may or may not be a good thing - i will find out i guess

i wonder why they made a change now - i just hope its not because of any issues with the motors before - since i got them on my chair for sure - speed is the same - which is the reason i got this chair - plus my 220 has been very reliable - and those have the 2 pole motors -

good to know that the pilot remote is ok --

do you know who makes the pilot remote etc, - ? website -

a little off this topic for a min-

i just realized on my order form - i got the front caster tires as - 8 inch airless insert - -- vs what i have now on my 220 is Pneumatic with insert -

what is the difference between those two ? i just dont want to get flats -

[Burgerman]

Casters are both the same thing. Remote http://www.pgdt.com same as your control system. But it wont be shown because R-net replaces Pilot Plus systems. You will need to call although these are still available to order.

The difference you will notice if the programming is good enough, is better torque on thresholds curbs, ramps, turning on thick carpets / grass etc with 4 pole motors. It will need programming to suit you in any case, and theres a thread here about an easy to make PC to USB cable that allows you to use the essential full OEM version software to set it all up yourself correctly. A dealer wont/cant do this normally.

[expresso]

sounds great - i was reading up on the pilot plus joystick - its actually pretty good - at least on paper - i never found a need to reprogram my chair once i picked it up - i do believe the vendor salesman did program it for me before i took it and it has been good for years - i have recently had it checked and made a few changes - faster pick up speeds and stops speeds - turning etc, -

i will have to see how my new chair arrives - and use it for a few weeks before i have the Tech, come to home to make adjustments - where is the link to that trend you mentioned about doing the programming yourself ?

i read a little about the hand held programmers - for the pilot plus joystick - which do you recommend if i should be able to find one - i know the basic models dont do much - but even if i can find the basic one - at a good price - it can come in handy -

would you know what kind sunrise uses for the 222 se - ? which amp version ?

thanks -

[expresso]

oh by the way - which control system do you think will be on my new chair ? if it has the pilot plus joystick - on a 222 se - ?

if you would know - model etc, - i like to read up on it -

thanks again

[Burgerman]

Pilot plus...

Read this carefully. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/powerch ... amming.htm
The chair you are sat in now steers horribly. You dont know this because you have never experienced how it can be.

and use it for a few weeks before i have the Tech, come to home to make adjustments

The "tech" cant, and wont make these adjustments, because the level of programmer required isnt what he has.

There are several levels. But the tech one is "dealer" which only allows a few things to be adjusted. The OEM or engineering level ones are far more difficult to get hold of, and seldom seen outside of manufacturing. But are absolutely required to make a chair steer correctly. Ask any of the people whose chairs I reprogrammed that are on this forum.

[expresso]

hi - i understand what your you are saying and your correct that the Reg. tech etc, dosnt have the full programmer thats needed to make deep changes - the person who i can get that from is from Sunrise Sales - tech etc,

if i needed those changes made - i can request to have someone from Sunrise come in and make the changes - now i cant say if my chair is terriable etc. - i get around pretty smoothly - it could be a little better fine tunes sort of speak - but for the most part - it works well - i dont remember who programmed it the first time - i know he plugged it in - with a computer program and made the adjustments - what kind he made - i dont know - at the time i didnt know anything about this stuff then -

but this time around - i will try it a few weeks and see where i like to make the adjustments too - what would you recommend to keep a look out for ? i am able to control and handle the chair at speeds etc, - i am always off the ground with my front tires - most of the times - going up street ramps do it automaticatly -

my main concern is speed - and stopping fast - dont like it to roll off and stop slow once i stop the joystick - then its turning - same way - dont want it to keep going once i stop the joystick - those are pretty much basic settings i think - last is when i am riding - and i have to go around people - i dont want it to slow down as i move around people side to side etc, - thats that part i want to pay attention do and get that adjusted if its not enough for me -
and keep it at full speed -- i will have 5 profiles i think to make changes too - first two will be for the home - indoors - 3 can be a little faster - and 4 and 5 - i like it full speed - thats how i have it now - i was told from Sunrise tech the chair will be full speed from default - it should go 8.5 as stated from the factory - maybe not all the profiles will - but at very least the 5th should - hard for me to test the speed - i have nothing to test the speed -

any tips on what i should be asking to adjust more or less when i call in the sunrise tech- i understand - the vendor tech will show up with the basic programmer - i seen that before -

[Burgerman]

Read very carefully that page in the link. Several times. Boring yes. Essential though. It tells you everything that you will want! Speed will be correct. Everything else, especially at the non accessible OEM level, will have some accelerations for turn and low speed turn, as well as turn deceleration set by factory default.

Even the factory will not want to remove this and will "gloss over" it and tell you its not needed. It is. As its part of the safety testing etc and most of the experts dont have much clue anyway.

I suggest you print it and give the tech guy a copy, and be sure he does every one! Or it will do all the stuff you dont want.

[expresso]

good idea - to print and show it to him -

the tech guy would be from my vendor first - which he wont have or may have the right programmer - cant say - i would have to go thru him first - and if i am not satisfied - then have them call in the Quickie Sales Rep. to bring in the real programmer -

i called sunrise and asked about the changes they made - seems they changed things around to get insurance to pay for more of there chairs - so they added controller options and left the standard controller basic - for insurance - then better R-net as upgrade - now the 636 which is a group 3 chair - has a motor upgrade option which it didnt have before - - price is high though - for the upgrades - the motor changes are due to make them work with the new electronics -

and i was told the motors i got are from Electrocraft - - the new motors they are using are Linix - they look smaller overall compared to the Electrocraft - - and are geared like you or someone said on here -

i was told they are preset - five profiles - one being the slowest and 5 fastest - i have to see after i use it for a few weeks to figure out what i want adjusted - but i will print that out - good to have handy -

getting the vendor tech over is simple - thats not a problem - but after him - if i did want or need the Quickie Rep. then that can take time - depending on his calendar - -

the pilot plus is a 80amp to 100amp joystick controller - thats what i was told -

[Burgerman]

Good luck with getting them to set it as you want! Its never happened yet as far as I know!

Your tech guy wont have the right programmer. What he can do is basically only about 40 percent useful.
The manufacturer rep, will not have a clue, and will change very little and try to get you to say its OK without actually showing what he is doing...

Been there got the T shirt about 8 times. Pointless excersize. However if you see woody on this forum for a lead, then sometimes the software for the PC magically appears.

[expresso]

i hear you - but what can a wheelchair user do ? if i had the correct programmer to do it myself - i never done it and would be risky without knowing everything - thats even if i had the correct programmer

the only thing i can do is get the Tech. who works on my chair from the Vendor - seems to know more than previous techs - this is a new vendor i am using now - ok he may not know it all and my not have the correct programmer either - if that dosnt work - last and only thing i can do is get the Quickie Reps - with there programmer over to make the adjustments - after that - not much really i can do -

i wont have any problem with getting the max speed and stopping etc, - the turning part can be tricky - takes time to change and use and see and then change again - takes a few trips from the Tech. - i know for sure the quickie Rep. if i can get him once - ok - i dont think i will get him back after the first time he comes over and does it - i can push for it- but you know the story - always busy - takes months to show up if at all -

i know they wont change any of those motor settings to raise the temps before slowing down - i dont think they will touch that - it does happen when going up hills - i notice it the most - and was told from Quickie i would notice it due to the 8.5 motors - i am about 150 pounds - USA specs - i should be ok with the speed - just up hills i think will slow me down - well see -

the tricky part is the turning while moving fast - going around people seamlessly - thats how i want to get it programmed so it dosnt slow me down as i move the joystick a little to get around -

i let you know after i use it for a week - how it feels stock - i should be picking it up this Thursday if all goes well - and pressed them to get me the Lester Bench Top Charger - not the compact models - they dont charge fully for me-

[Burgerman]

Read that page. No risk, its simple enough. Understand what each setting does, and test it. If you dont like it put it back or wherever you feel that it suits you best.

But every last person that I simply removed all the delays (accelerations) completely, in that menu, massively prefered it. At least if you have normal hand function, and control abilities. Much like driving a car or plane. You want it to turn, or stop turning, when you tell it. Not later on...

[LROBBINS]

It's probably also not too hard to get a copies of the P&G manuals. Reading Burgerman's notes and cross-correlating that with the manuals, asking questions before changing something you don't understand, and making changes one at a time and keeping notes so you can go back if it doesn't work out will make you much more an "expert" than the Quickie techs are likely to be. Burgerman is right; chair programming is not exotic science, so if you don't mind reading carefully and fiddling systematically (rather than randomly or wildly), you too can learn how. Ciao, Lenny

[expresso]

hey - thanks for the responses - i get it - you guys are right - and i can control it - this is why i paid the difference out of pocket to get this chair - for the speed - and wheelies - they come easy with my current chair P220
now the main problem with what you guys are telling me is - i dont have a programmer to play around with - cant take my time etc, doing one thing at a time and testing and changing again etc, - i am at the mercy of the vendor - and Manufactor - and we all know how that goes - it took over a month for the Sunrise Rep. to visit me to just test drive a chair - it was the 636 Quickie - not a bad chair - i just wanted to stay with my 222 style for as long as i can - and wanted the fastest speed i could get - which by the way - starting Today - you can get the 636 with upgraded motors to get 8.5 mph - didnt have that option when i tested the chair - who knows i might have went for it then that way -

if i get lucky and the vendor tech happens to have the better programmer to make those changes from the link you gave me - i printed the page - then i can take my time and tune it better - i can have the vendor tech. come see me more often to be able to do that - if thats not the case - i could get the Sunrise Rep etc, to come out and do a program for me - but i dont think they are going to stick around for hours while i test it - or come back after the first time - but never know - i could always ask them to if thats the case -

other than that - i would need a programmer myself - then i would do it myself - one step at a time - one change and note it - etc, - is there any way or does anyone actually have the programmer which is needed to do the correct adjustments ?

what is the Name of the programmer needed ? Sunrise sells one - which is too expensive and the basic one anyway - if you have the name - maybe i can search around and if i happen to find one - at a decent price - i take a shot at it -

thanks -

[ex-Gooserider]

Seems like you need to get rid of the dependency on Sunrise mindset... Read and PAY ATTENTION to what people here are telling you - it is VERY easy to obtain / make the cable needed to do your own programming on a P&G Pilot+ system, using a computer. Officially the OEM level P&G software is hard to come by, but there are ways to get it with a bit of asking around.... Don't waste money on a handheld programmer, as it is almost certainly going to be the near useless dealer level...

Of all the different controllers that are in use, I'd say that there is probably more expertise available here on the Pilot+ units than there is on most of the other brands... Thus there is no need to rely on Sunrise to adjust your programming, you can do it yourself, making slow changes, as appropriate and described earlier...

ex-Gooserider

[malamar]

I also need an imput from the gurus here: from this pic is it possible to know if the motor type 2 or 4 poles? Its given by Sunrise as 8.5 kmh capable..



Thanks so much

[expresso]

ok - Would anyone here who has a cable which i can use to connect from my Pilot plus joystick to my computer usb ? if you know of a place where i can purchase it alone - at a decent price - post a link - or if anyone can make one for me - i am willing to pay for the service - i am not good at making one -

this would be for my new chair 222 se - should be getting in a few days - and it will have the pilot plus joystick controller etc, - i am trying to get some info on the motors - just to know - waiting back from Sunmed motor development to get back to me -

i know they are geared - and from Electrocraft - 4 pole - 8.5 mph -

have anyone else reprogrammed there chair using the software and cable - and did it yourself ? was it difficult to understand the options and changes to make - also - how do you save the current set up before making any changes - or if theres a reset option which puts it back to default -

thanks for all the info and help here - we really need a place like this to discuss our chairs -

by the way - this is for Burgerman - not too long ago - a friend of mines traveled the london and i belieave she contacted you - in hopes that you were close by - she was going to say hi - it was a female - Jessica - wheelchair user - but she told me that you were too far away from where she was - wonder if you remember her ?

she has the invacare with the GB motors - and loves the speed - battery life - but her left motor keeps going out - just dies - and gets her stuck - cant even push it freewheel - nothing - its been about 4 or 5 times now - they gave her a new chair because of that and the new chair did the same thing once already - only a few months old - scary - but she loves the chair - they are not going to make those motors anymore - being replaced soon -

[Burgerman]

Dont remember a Jessica? But I get a lot of emails!

Save settings? Thats easy, the software can download your settings, display them on screen (for you to adjust) or save them as a small file on your PC.

The photo above is a 2 pole motor as far as I can see.

[expresso]

Yeah - she told me she contacted you while there in case you were close by - i showed her this site and your Chair - so she figured she give it a shot -

i would first save the settings - before even trying to change anything at all - but first i will install the software and just look it over - read the manual etc, - see if i understand what i am doing -
i am ok with the computer - but do make mistakes - last thing i want to do is fry my new chair

i wont try to make any changes just yet - i like to first see what they can do to my chair and see how it feels to me - then i can connect it and save that profile settings - so i can always get back there -

[malamar]

Espresso, I'm in the same identical processo. All you need is the dongle, whose actual maker will contact you for sure. And for the settings nothing better than what written on the subject by monsieur BM past the door: don't panic either with software program, my brain must be of gruyere cheese texture by now and can almost understand it! They scare us shy to keep free from legal matters and claims, eventually...

[expresso]

thanks - do you have the same chair as mines ?

the dongle you mean the cable right ? - so you have the cable dongle - and software - and have used it ? good to know - i am not looking to try to make it faster or raise the temp. limits etc, - just precise to how i use it -

i am all over the place in the city on the sidewalks - going around the people and i dont want to slow down to go around them - i use the streets alot - but have to watch out there also - i go back and forth between street and sidewalks -

sounds great - a little programming - a few espressos and i am good to go i noticed they took off the new order forms - the bench top lester charger they sell - i stressed to get it and was told i will - since they ordered my chair with the compact charger - good thing i went over my order form - i also stopped them from ordering the frame in long - i wanted standard - turns out - i had to change the seat dept from 18 to 17 in order to get a standard frame from Quickie - they changed some things around - since my 220 has 18 dept and standard frame - i tell you have to be on top of your shit when you get a new chair - check every little option and double check before it gets ordered - i just made it to get it changed to 17 dept on my seat - that was a Sunrise thing - they changed something and who would have known - now they dont offer the bench top charger on the order form anymore

you can buy it from them as parts - for $460 !!! meanwhile on the order form - it was an ungrade and only $25 dollars - go figure - crossing my fingers that i will have it when i pick the chair up in two days -

[Burgerman]

You do not want a lester charger! Those things are antiques, and are a sure way to ruin good batteries.

[expresso]

Really - oh whow - too late for that - i drove them crazy to get me the bench top charger - which is a lester charger 8amp - i have a older one at 5 amp which works great -

too late - those are the choices - small compact charger or bench top -- i might end up with both if they bring me both - i take them - but i have another compact 8 amp charger already - gave me new last year - the ones they give everyone - black slim light box - no switch to turn on or off - and i got my lester 5 amp bench top i got with my 220 chair 8 years ago and that works better than the compact models

now i dont know which chargers are better etc, - i always though lester was a great brand - i also got a small little compact one i carry in my nap sack - its 7 amp a hour - its small about 6 inchs long - x 3 wide x 2 high something like that - works pretty good - but that also works like the compact model - it charges till it says its full - but i notice its not actually full - its about 80% - then i use the lester and it brings it up to 100% full -

when the others tell me its 100% full - the lester tells me its 80% and keeps charging till 100% - and i notice the difference when i ride - much better when i use the lester to get it full -

thats from my experience -

[expresso]

i just installed the program on my computer just to loo it over a bit - i most likely will install it on my lap top to make any changes to the chair - easier for me to connect and stay close - my desktop is out of the way -

do you really have to fill in the controller type model ?

controller type serial number ?

Vehicle serial number ?

when the time comes when i actually try it - do i have to fill in those blanks or i can just use it with out ? because the one i do know is my chair serial number - thats it - i wont be able to get the controller model or serial number -
that thing is buried under the chair near the base -

[expresso]

i just got my answer - i am reading the manual - and once you put in the serial number - it picks up the rest of the Controller information - cool

i just need to learn what each and every function i touch would do etc, before changing anything - and need a usb cable

[Burgerman]

It will; read all that from your controller when you connect and click the down arrow...

[expresso]

ok now -- i am feeling much better about doing this myself now that i am getting fimiliar with it - and thanks to you burgerman - with you and this site - alot of wheelchair users would be out of luck -

and your right - with this - i wont need to ask any vendor tech - or quickie rep - etc, to do anything - - once this is connected to the chair and program opened - will it display the current setup and let me print it before making any changes ?

i just got word from the motor development dept at Sunrise - my motors are Electrocraft - 1 Hp - 15 to 1 gear ratio 8.5mph - reason for the change to R net from pilot plus - is that P&G is phasing them out and will no longer support them - so they switched to newer up to date supported system R-Net - was told the same about the motors - going from Electrocraft to Linix - same reason - and perform just the same - either one -

was told the motors have been used for many years with excellent reliability - - i am sure he cant tell me other wise - but made me feel better anyway -