Personal Wheelchair Budgets

[biscuit]

Independent living website doesn't say anything much, they have simply described that halfarsed voucher system under the heading "update February 2020". You might be "independent", allowed to go to one of the cronies to spend your voucher on a wheelchair.

[segreen]

Hi, Without trawling through 24 pages, has anyone managed to get a PWB other then BM?

[Burgerman]

I know some on here did. Its a matter of how much they decide you can have thats the problem. They seem very good at assessing everyone for the lowest possible amount. With their panel of experts. They then offer you a figure that they deem to be what they would pay trade, plus a microscopic 100 a year maintainance... Every 3 years if you are a serial powerchair killer, every 5 for others.

They just offered me 5k plus for a chair. And missed off 4 things that I cannot do without. So currently writing them a letter! Another one... And we will have the usual fight. And its taken them 9 months! So I now send them in a year in advance.

[segreen]

I know you get one John but I'm not aware of anyone else getting anything like what you get. I just wanted to know whether there is anyone out there getting something like yours or are you the excemption. I think from what I know this side of the Pennines, most people get a voucher or they let WCS supply them a standard chair. For me the hassel is too much and I don't have the time to fight them. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford what I need.

[Burgerman]

Steve is in the middle of doing this right now. memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1011
I know others have been succesful.

[steves1977uk]

Yes I am, but WCS still refers it as the voucher system as they're still confused what a PWB actually is! From what I saw when they came to assess me at home.

I'm getting a custom Dietz RWD chair with rover220's help.

Steve

[rover220]

I have yet to come across anyone getting anything like a sufficient amount. One chap I have quoted a chair for as been offered a Pwb of £3400 which gives his level of disability and level of chair required is a joke.

[Burgerman]

That doesent surprise me in the least. My WCS had no idea what a budget was either. Even though they were supposed to have it all up and running legally by 2016. They are frankly useless. They didnt understand how I could have been doin this for a decade already!

[duke1]

Yes I am, but WCS still refers it as the voucher system as they're still confused what a PWB actually is! From what I saw when they came to assess me at home.

I'm getting a custom Dietz RWD chair with rover220's help.

Steve

hi steves be sure to do a review wont you once you know what its like i been looking at the rwd for tina if i can raise the funds from the pwb and shake out the piggybank for the excess,enjoy

[duke1]

I have yet to come across anyone getting anything like a sufficient amount. One chap I have quoted a chair for as been offered a Pwb of £3400 which gives his level of disability and level of chair required is a joke.

hi we think its a ploy to put people of doing it again,here they are trying to get away with just carrying on the old voucher system but calling it a pwb you have no more freedom to choose your source as it must be from an approved list and none have a single chair for 4.5k suitable for tinas needs and as used chairs are not allowed either it means the whole thing is a great waste of time and very frustrating
we have 2nd or 3rd assessment on the 3rd nov and i am determined this gets sorted correctly this time and shall not let them leave till it is,mrfugly is going to stand guard till they give her what she needs

joke is if they had just used my assessment we would be golden and over and done by now!peace

[steves1977uk]

Yes I am, but WCS still refers it as the voucher system as they're still confused what a PWB actually is! From what I saw when they came to assess me at home.

I'm getting a custom Dietz RWD chair with rover220's help.

Steve

hi steves be sure to do a review wont you once you know what its like i been looking at the rwd for tina if i can raise the funds from the pwb and shake out the piggybank for the excess,enjoy

Will do Duke.

Steve

[Burgerman]

What you are describing is the voucher scheme. That is still available, should you want it. Not the budget.

I am "allowed" to do what the hell I want with it, as long as its spent on my mobility/wheelchair. I can save two lots of the 3 years up, and have about 12k to play with. Or use it to modify, buy used, or buy/build a backup chair, buy and sell my older chairs, repair, rebuild, lithiumize, or whatever the hell I choose. And once you kick the WCS into shape they also MUST offer this option legally. And no it doesent have to be spent at any list of dealers, or any list of acceptable chairs... Used, new, or otherwise. This is called CHOICE. All over the NHS CHOICES website!

The whole POINT of this budget was to allow USER CHOICE and to get away from the restricted voucher scheme. It was actually invented to allow ME to build and maintain my own chairs after complaining rather loudly about the useless wheelchair services options.

So you obviously have yet to wake them up. You are going along for the ride and letting them tell you what they are offering It has to be the other way around because as I said above. This is the NHS socialist useless medical system. You need to kick a few backsides.

Once you have the money you can decide which way to go. I bought in 2016 a new Invacare storm brushless chair with tilt, recline, lift, power CENTRE footrests, lights, 8mph. With my budget after 30% discount and zero vat from better mobility, delivered, no warranty other han on parts. I sent that back as its brushless motors were crap...

And bought the salsa instead. Again 6mph, 4 pole, 120A power module, advanced colour joystick, custom black paint, tilt, lift, recline, power centre footrest (B4M option) etc. Again lots of discount and a little bit added to top up what they allowed me.

Previous years I used it to build and maintain my two BM2 and 3 chairs. You have to push them!!! They do not know the rules and refuse to move. As for the amount you must keep explaining to them using the actual prescription forms of a couple of suitable chairs, the OPTIONS NEEDED and WHY! As part of your self assessement. They ignored several of my clinical needs. So currently writing a letter back!

[steves1977uk]

Just sent the following e-mail to WCS...

Hi WCS,

Just wondering when WCS are planning on implementing the Personal Wheelchair Budget as this replaces the old voucher scheme. By LAW I'm entitled to a PWB as this is on the NHS website. Here's the link... https://www.england.nhs.uk/personal-hea ... r-budgets/

As I'm needing a custom made chair, a personal budget would go towards this. Please get back to me regarding this.

Kind regards,

Steve

Waiting to hear back.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Are you expecting any serious or timely response?
Did you include your detailed and personal assessement. And a suitable chair with all the extras and a prescription form? Similar to this post: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10062#p163139

With detailed description of every cost and why it was important clinically and holistically?

Did you send around a dozen hard copies to all the higher ups, administrators by recorded delivery and add that time was of the essence?

I alway do this. Or you will just be more or less humoured and ignored.

I also added that I had just had to self fund for the spec of chair in your detailed list.

[steves1977uk]

Of course not BM! I just want to see if I get a reply.

My next plan is to go higher up with the help from my PA. Once I get the quote from rover, I'll do several copies of it along with my own self assessment. My PA is not one for being fobbed off and she will soon tell them so! Trust me BM!

Steve

[duke1]

hi all well today we had the wcs and the engineer visit to redo the botched assessment 3rd time now and this time i got it in writing signed and agreed the basic needs must be properly met this time,there still trying to give the voucher scheme system but call it a pwb and insist on a select list we can buy from,i explained why in detail this was wrong and did question the pair of them and asked in plain simple english why we are in this situation some 2 years since her first wcs visit despite written 4 page in detail self assessment and the input from tinas ot they still gave her a chair too tall to use,a seat that caused pain,footrests big enough for bigfoot,solid tyres and not pneumatic the basics all wrong,no answer just well you should have said something and we could have changed it! why?why not do the job once and do it right?
anyhow they gone back to talk to the boss and we shall see how we respond as i shall not be told i have to buy new nor from whom and at this point im past caring who i upset or have to annoy enough to listen
i showed them the script for the dietz rwd chair and a couple of other used chairs one was same dealer on ebay as bm just got from,in fact i looked at the same chair.
they say i cant so im even more determined i shall prevail
peace

[Burgerman]

i shall not be told i have to buy new nor from whom and at this point im past caring who i upset or have to annoy enough to listen

Thats where I got to in 98. And ONLY that works. Dont try to please the "nice ladies". They are in an unchanging socialist system, are totally ignorant and unwilling to change, and know sod all about wheelchairs or your missus problems.

i looked at the same chair.
they say i cant

And yet I just did. With a higher spec chair and with 1k to spare.

And do so every 3 years. Last time, the NEW salsa with every bell and whistle. Previously 2 BM2 diy chairs, and a BM3 chair. So ignore ther bullshit. You are in the right. They are not. All have lights. 3 are 6mph, 1 is 8mph, 1 is 16mph. 3 are self built, 1 was new and lightly modified -Salsa, and one hasnt arrived yet but is higher spec than anything wcs will allow, and unused - technically 2nd hand from eBay...

On a personal budget, HOW you spend the money is non of their damned busines and thats was the entire point of it!

You are struggling to get them to do it. Imagine how angry I got to get them to start this personal budget in the first place 12 or so years back. I ended up arguing with the health minister and his mini me personal secratary. I dont suffer fools at all well.

[terry2]

Hi, Without trawling through 24 pages, has anyone managed to get a PWB other then BM?

I don't know anyone that gets it.

This is from a guy that goes to meetings with wheelchair users in birmingham and solihull.

I never got it. They gave me £2,000 towards my Meyra.

[Burgerman]

Yes. some have. I cant recall threads and names. It seems to be dependent on if anyone has kicked up enough fuss to make them implement it.

[steves1977uk]

Hi, Without trawling through 24 pages, has anyone managed to get a PWB other then BM?

I don't know anyone that gets it.

This is from a guy that goes to meetings with wheelchair users in birmingham and solihull.

I never got it. They gave me £2,000 towards my Meyra.

That wouldn't even buy a basic 4MPH deckchair! They should've offered you the value of the chair which should've been £4000+.

I'm telling WCS I want no part in the OLD voucher scheme and that I'm entitled to a PWB by LAW, as it says on the NHS website.

Steve

[terry2]

Hi, Without trawling through 24 pages, has anyone managed to get a PWB other then BM?

I don't know anyone that gets it.

This is from a guy that goes to meetings with wheelchair users in birmingham and solihull.

I never got it. They gave me £2,000 towards my Meyra.

That wouldn't even buy a basic 4MPH deckchair! They should've offered you the value of the chair which should've been £4000+.

I'm telling WCS I want no part in the OLD voucher scheme and that I'm entitled to a PWB by LAW, as it says on the NHS website.

Steve

That's what Sunrise medical charge my council.

So they can only give me the £2,000
The chair was in fact ok and £5,000 to buy.

Just shows what they really cost.

[stevelawiw]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest for a while, and now I’m about to start my own fight to get my local authority to implement the PWB properly, as Burgerman describes.

I had my first meeting with Wheelchair Services a week or so ago and today I’ve received a document through the post titled ‘Personal Wheelchair Budgets, your questions answered.’

I’ve had a quick scan through it, and in the eligbility section there is this:-

“What can a PWB be used for?
The PWB can only be used towards the purchase of a wheelchair (including accessories) that meets your clinical needs. It cannot be exchanged for money.”

So that’s the level of stupid I’m up against on the Isle of Wight. How can a budget not be money?

[steves1977uk]

To make matters worst, the LEAD clinican at my local WCS wanted me to clarify what I meant when I asked for a copy of their remit. I thought that was pretty simple!!!

Steve

[Burgerman]

Beats me. Mine is.

[stevelawiw]

Yes it's an uphill struggle Steve!

Yes. some have. I cant recall threads and names. It seems to be dependent on if anyone has kicked up enough fuss to make them implement it.

This is what we all have to do! Kick up a fuss.

[Burgerman]

Mine gets paid into my direct paments account. The one used for paying carers. I have no idea how the figure is split, if it is, between LA and local WCS.

[duke1]

Yes it's an uphill struggle Steve!

Yes. some have. I cant recall threads and names. It seems to be dependent on if anyone has kicked up enough fuss to make them implement it.

This is what we all have to do! Kick up a fuss.

hi steve and all well we have been told we can have a pwb but it seems every ccg has there own idea on how the pwb should be implemented however there are issued guidance they need to be seen to comply with and it is worth an hour or so to read and understand there rules and regs,some are like ours in west sussex whom are simply carrying on the voucher scheme just renamed pwb and with lots of restrictions on whom you must purchase from and they say the money cannot be funded direct to you and if you get say 5k and only spend 4.5k they want the change back,problem is getting them to give sufficient without having to add masses to it yourself,atm we fighting them to make them follow the nhs guidelines which if you scan through have a few bits very relevant of which they have chosen to ignore or have never bothered to read as they can just fob most people off or waste there time for so long they give up and take any chair there offered,atm theres 5 of us from my ccg area all applying at once and all have been approved but none so far at the correct rate (the cost of the correct nhs chair as per assessment) so all have mp and other bodies on the case all in effort to make them do right something that by rights was meant to be working 18 months ago,heres link to source
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/u ... udgets.pdf
good luck and do let us know how you get on,peace
relevant id say,nal wheelchair budgets
CCGs must publicise and promote the availability of personal health budgets and
personal wheelchair budgets, and provide information, advice and support to those
eligible, their representatives, families and carers, to help them decide if a budget is
right for them. This information should be readily available. For example, information
could be provided within the letter confirming eligibility for NHS CHC or children and
young people’s continuing care, or during a review of an existing package of care.
CCGs also need to ensure that information, advice and support on personal health
budgets is available for people with a learning disability or autistic people who are
eligible and have a Care and Treatment Review (CTR) or Care Education and
Treatment Review (CETR). It is therefore recommended that the processes for
getting a personal health budget should be aligned and linked with local CTR and
CETR processes.
CCGs should ensure that all people who become section 117 eligible

[steves1977uk]

Section 4.3 from the guidance PDF...

Personal wheelchair budgets

People who are referred and meet the eligibility criteria of their local NHS wheelchair service and people who are already registered with the wheelchair service, will be eligible for a personal wheelchair budget when they require a new wheelchair or specialist buggy, either through a change in clinical needs or in the condition of the current chair.

‘Wheelchair services’ means services which are arranged and funded by a relevant body for a person with a medically recognised long-term disability who for their health and wellbeing requires a wheelchair or specialist buggy to carry out normal day-to-day activities. For the purpose of this guidance, long-term broadly means six months or more. However, individual eligibility for local wheelchair services may be flexible and if a person presents with a significant unmet postural and mobility need under the six-month period, CCGs may use their discretion to provide a personal wheelchair budget if it is clinically appropriate and the person meets their local eligibility criteria for the provision of a wheelchair and / or a specialist buggy.

And section 6...

Preparing to provide personal health budgets and personal wheelchair budgets

CCGs must publicise and promote the availability of personal health budgets and personal wheelchair budgets, and provide information, advice and support to those eligible, their representatives, families and carers, to help them decide if a budget is right for them. This information should be readily available. For example, information could be provided within the letter confirming eligibility for NHS CHC or children and young people’s continuing care, or during a review of an existing package of care.

CCGs also need to ensure that information, advice and support on personal health budgets is available for people with a learning disability or autistic people who are eligible and have a Care and Treatment Review (CTR) or Care Education and Treatment Review (CETR). It is therefore recommended that the processes for getting a personal health budget should be aligned and linked with local CTR and CETR processes.

CCGs should ensure that all people who become section 117 eligible are advised of their rights under section 117, including the right to have a personal health budget. CCGs should ensure that they have the necessary processes, support and information in place so all options for receiving and managing the money can be made available to people.

Steve

[duke1]

this is the relevant rules from there own direct payment guidelines,

0)CCGs should be careful not to exclude unusual requests without examining the proposal on
a case-by-case basis; these may have significant benefits for people's health and
wellbeing. The evaluation showed that personal health budgets worked best where people
had real flexibility over how they could use their budgets. The personal health budget toolkit
includes a number of personal stories, which give a range of ideas of how budgets were
used during the pilot program.
so how come they feel the right to just say no?
sect 19 here
https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/u ... paymnt.pdf

[biscuit]

You know that guidance is internal, right? That is to say, it is how the NHS wants its employees to interpret the law. For us minions who want the law to work in our favour not against us, it would probably be better to ignore that guidance and consult the actual law. As many people claiming PIP have been obliged to do. Like the NHS, the DWP is happiest when we are compliant and grateful. But they are a government department and don't know or care what the law says and we do have a very clear appeal process against the DWP, which AFAIK does not exist with the NHS, because the NHS is supposedly on our side, (patient advocacy and all that...) however that works.

Just saying. Sorry about the TLAs.