a revealing experience

[LROBBINS]

At the moment we are in Melbourne, FL, U.S.A. and earlier today visited Kennedy Space Center. On the bus trip out to the parking lot the driver asked me "who made this chair", I pointed to myself and she said "no wonder you can drive it so well". So I invited her to drive it and her eyes lit up. That's what Burgerman-style parameter settings and good joystick position - max accelerations and correct compensation and, on Rachi's chair, an attendant joystick where the heel of one's hand can rest solidly behind the stick - does for the chair driving experience.

[Burgerman]

Well said. It REALLY is a shame that you cant give that same experience to all.

So I invited her to drive it and her eyes lit up.

It really is a massive eye opener. Nobody I ever configured a chair for would let me put it back to "normal"...

EVERY chair sold that uses normal mass produced control systems, has this crap control problem. And a little time with an OEM programer and the correct understanding of how, completely TRANSFORMS every chair. Once experienced you would never buy any chair that did not allow full OEM access, (or any front drive chair OR permobil). And once you see how easy, intuitive and very natural and invisible it feels you cannot go back to how it was. Lenny gets it. Quite a few on this forum now do. As they tried it. Also because over the years I have done many! And locally in my home town I have done dozens too. All were rather shocked at the huge intuitive ease of control difference. All other chairs then feel broken and unsteerabe and unpredicabe in comparison. Its not a small difference. Its night and day.

[greybeard]

I followed your programming advice to the letter and am extremely grateful that you shared this with us.
However, mine is one of the front drive chairs that, for reasons that I understand, you hate so much.
I tried very hard to use a rear drive (again following your advice) but I simply couldn't easily negotiate round my little house in one. With a front drive chair, those problems go away.
With care, and without a gyro, the 'death spiral' thing can be avoided especially at the slower speeds I prefer to use at my age. My drive it like you stole it days are well and truly over.
My point is that there really are instances when a front drive is a better option for some members here.

[greybeard]

I followed your programming advice to the letter and am extremely grateful that you shared this with us.
However, mine is one of the front drive chairs that, for reasons that I understand, you hate so much.
I tried very hard to use a rear drive (again following your advice) but I simply couldn't easily negotiate round my little house in one. With a front drive chair, those problems go away.
With care, and without a gyro, the 'death spiral' thing can be avoided especially at the slower speeds I prefer to use at my age. My drive it like you stole it days are well and truly over.
My point is that there really are instances when a front drive is a better option for some members here.

[greybeard]

I followed your programming advice to the letter and am extremely grateful that you shared this with us.
However, mine is one of the front drive chairs that, for reasons that I understand, you hate so much.
I tried very hard to use a rear drive (again following your advice) but I simply couldn't easily negotiate round my little house in one. With a front drive chair, those problems go away.
With care, and without a gyro, the 'death spiral' thing can be avoided especially at the slower speeds I prefer to use at my age. My drive it like you stole it days are well and truly over.
My point is that there really are instances when a front drive is a better option for some members here.

[Burgerman]

I agree. Priorities.
I would rather widen a few doors or something though.

But not if you expect total accurate control and drive it like you stole it. Which is all I ever do. I feel sorry for my chairs. They get hammered/wheelied, skidded, and do max speed indoors and out equally all day everyday. They never get a break! And I am 63 in 3 weeks.

If a doorway is 1 inch wider than my chair I wouldnt even think about slowing from full speed. Because I dont need to. And I can judge that as I see it aproach in any new building. In 24 years torturing chairs I never hit anything. My arms are unmarked on all 5 chairs. This is because they are programmed properly and configured well.

But if you want that type of control, and the ability to do this with literal millimeter accuracy at speed and complete relaxed confidence: Then no gyro, GOOD low impedance batteries, low impedance 4 pole motors, CORRECTLY fine tuned motor compensation, and all the turn acceleration/deceleration settings maxed out, and various other settings honed is ABSOLUTELY essential. As is rear biased weight distribution on a rear drive chair, and solidly mounted joystick IN THE CORRECT position, and a few other small details.

Once you do this, the chair is supremely accurate, controlable, even when going at sane slow normal speeds indoors or out. Absolutely transparent easy linear and precise control. In a way that is so natural that you forget you are doing it. And the chair just goes exactly where you think at the speed you intend without doing any thinking at all! You forget it even has a joystick.

[martin007]

How about the plane trip?
Is the cost of a ticket for a user in a powerchair the same as normal?
Did you pay extra for the weight and volume of the powerchair?
Does the powerchair have lead or lithium batteries?

[ex-Gooserider]

How about the plane trip?
Is the cost of a ticket for a user in a powerchair the same as normal?
Did you pay extra for the weight and volume of the powerchair?
Does the powerchair have lead or lithium batteries?

In the US, or flights to-from it, we are covered by the "Air Carrier Access Act" which essentially says our HP equipment flies for free... I'm not sure about how it works in other countries. Also note that the act does NOT prevent the airline from destroying your equipment, and is less than ideal in getting them to make it right when they do...

My one post injury flight experience cost me the same fare as I would have paid as an AB. I traveled with my power chair, my folding shower/commode chair, one extra checked suitcase w/ supplies, and an extra carry-on for backup supplies and the parts I pulled off the power chair before letting them stow it...

The rules are a bit unclear on Lithium batteries, especially in the sizes we use in our conversions, and packs that aren't 'commercially made' There is an exception for HP equipment in the rules that generally restrict large lithium packs, but there are some parts of it that are a bit vague and give the airlines some wiggle room to refuse a Lithium chair - it seems simpler to not specify that the batteries are lithium unless they specifically ask... Lead batteries do need to be sealed types or have special handling if spillable.

ex-Gooserider

[fishinjunky]

Well said. It REALLY is a shame that you cant give that same experience to all.

So I invited her to drive it and her eyes lit up.

It really is a massive eye opener. Nobody I ever configured a chair for would let me put it back to "normal"...

EVERY chair sold that uses normal mass produced control systems, has this crap control problem. And a little time with an OEM programer and the correct understanding of how, completely TRANSFORMS every chair. Once experienced you would never buy any chair that did not allow full OEM access, (or any front drive chair OR permobil). And once you see how easy, intuitive and very natural and invisible it feels you cannot go back to how it was. Lenny gets it. Quite a few on this forum now do. As they tried it. Also because over the years I have done many! And locally in my home town I have done dozens too. All were rather shocked at the huge intuitive ease of control difference. All other chairs then feel broken and unsteerabe and unpredicabe in comparison. Its not a small difference. Its night and day.

i have been trying over the last couple years to get as close to your RNET settings as possible with LINX but its been very difficult to figure out the LINX settings without a spare test chair to test on. Im not comfortable testing on my daily drivers. Their terminology is also hard to figure out (what does what). I will keep trying . I do have all the OEM drive parameters opened up.

[Burgerman]

Well its about as user freindly as linux. I couldnt make out how to make it work or what does what either. That linx OEM software is like reading chinese and with no instructions... Thats why I think r-net is now the only game in town. Works properly in windows, very easy to understand as its all quite obvious.

I "test" on my daily drivers all the time. Howelse can you feel what does what. But thats quite obvious and intuitive with R-Net. Not so with linx

[fishinjunky]

Well its about as user freindly as linux. I couldnt make out how to make it work or what does what either. That linx OEM software is like reading chinese and with no instructions... Thats why I think r-net is now the only game in town. Works properly in windows, very easy to understand as its all quite obvious.

I "test" on my daily drivers all the time. Howelse can you feel what does what. But thats quite obvious and intuitive with R-Net. Not so with linx

i agree completely i will only get R-NET in the future an am going to look for deals on R-NET to swap out LINX on my chair. I dont expect LINX to get any better over time.

[Burgerman]

Do however expect the outlier, R-net to become harder to program. They are likely to make changes, online registration, lockdown of programmers or inability for a dealer version to write OEM files to the chair etc going forwards. Get what you need asap. And that why I have 2 r-net chairs and 3 complete systems, and an OEM programmer. Should see me out.

[martin007]

Do however expect the outlier, R-net to become harder to program. They are likely to make changes, online registration, lockdown of programmers or inability for a dealer version to write OEM files to the chair etc going forwards. Get what you need asap. And that why I have 2 r-net chairs and 3 complete systems, and an OEM programmer. Should see me out.

There will always be shortcuts though...

[LROBBINS]

We just got home this afternoon and are thoroughly exhausted, but I'll try to tell y'all something about the current airline/WC experience. This was not at all our first transatlantic trip and over the years some things have changed for the better, and some have not. One general rule - if you must have your own chair at the aircraft and can not use their ridiculous aisle chairs, DO NOT STEP OFF THE PLANE UNTIL YOU HAVE WHAT YOU NEED. The crew must stay as long as a passenger is aboard, and are free to leave once you step outside the door. PanAm did this to us once many years ago, and we were very glad when PanAm went bankrupt. Some crew members were unhappy this time that they had an un-paid hour to hour and a half wait while someone figured out how to get us the chair, but TS. Often, the captain has gone down to the ramp to expedite things.

You will be asked questions about the chair multiple times, e.g. when making the reservations and at each check in. That info never gets to the people who actually do the work. Delta even has a form with (mostly) reasonable questions and I have yet to see anyone actually look at it. Rachi's chair is pretty complex, but also designed to be easily stowed. I do attach an illustrated placard, in English and Italian, that explains how to handle it, but I insist that I do all the prep for strowage and when it comes off the plane. Most of the ground handlers are actually very cooperative about this. Here's a copy of one side.

Batteries: as far as I can tell, every airline will ask you whether it has "wet" or "dry" or in some cases "dry/gel" batteries. Some ask if they are lithium ion or if they are removable. If they are removable, you have to remove them. Obviously Rachi's 200 AHr LiFePO4 are NOT removable. Current rules also require that the control system &/or power be disabled in two ways so it can't be inadvertently turned on, but don't be surprised if some idiot still wants you to physically disconnect the battery cables (at one time required, but not for years) or remove the batteries. I have a midi-fuse in Anderson plug link that I pull out and hide inside the chair. Current U.S. and EU rules for Li say that they have to meet UN testing standards, and all batteries that we'd be using do. My placard just says "This wheelchair has SEALED, NON-SPILLABLE (DRY) batteries approved for unrestricted air transport." and if they insist on a verbal answer to "wet" or "dry" just say "dry". We've not had any problems with that. (BTW, Ford recently committed to building a big LiFePO4 battery plant under license from CALB and is planning on using them in their utility vehicles that are mostly used for shorter runs. Smart move.)

If possible, modify your chair so the back folds down. It will then fit in even small aircraft and even if they use an inclined conveyor instead of the vertical lift they should use but never have.

Now, for the bad part. Going from Seattle, WA to Orlando, FL they managed to break off the break release assembly on one motor - fractured two M3 hardened cap screws. When it got to Orlando the ground crew had a terrible time trying to push it (surprise) and asked me how to release the brakes. One was released, and the other release was in pieces on top of the chair! I suspect that someone in Seattle stepped on it, or tried to lift the chair using it. Next time, if there's a next time, safe lift points will not only be on the placard, but there'll be big red LIFT HERE labels on the chair. To continue the trip, I removed the entire brake assembly from that side and added a line to the program that essentially said "the brake is OK no matter what". I could have just wired in a resistor if I had one, but it was easier to fool the computer. Chairs get damaged far too often, and its unlikely that the airline will be able to get it repaired in anything like usable time. Most likely they'll offer to rent you a steel and canvas X frame push chair. You have to be prepared to deal with at least minor damage yourself, and then fight to get them to pay for real repairs.

[martin007]

I see that you are an expert in powerchair travel by air.

How about Rachi?
A few weeks ago you commented that I was a little weak.

[Burgerman]

That card is a work of art. Only one nit pick! Disactivated should be disconnected or de-activated. I think. But as usual they managed to break it in a way that a normal person would never have been able to fix regardless.

I dont think there is a "safe" way to fly a powerchair. Imagine if a normal user, flying alone, had been the passenger.

Also great advice on not disembarking without your own chair should it still be functional...

[LROBBINS]

I left out one important thing. The way we got the no-brake-release chair to Rachi was simply for me to power it up and drive it, still all folded up, to where I could unfold it and Rachi could be sat in it. It was perfectly functional under power, but couldn't be pushed about with the locked brake.

[Jay_x]

Have you posted a pic of your chair LROBBINS?

I would like to see it

[LROBBINS]

[Burgerman]

You both look happy!

[martin007]

The structure of the powerchair is robust.
Greetings Rachi!

[Jay_x]

oh thats a great looking chair!

who designed that? You did? who built it?

[Burgerman]

Lenny designed it, built it, including complex seating and lithium roboteq control system. Look carefully he resembles einstien without the hair.

[LROBBINS]

I designed & built it: electronics, mechanicals & metal work. The strange lift/tilt design went through 2 failed prototypes, 1 workable (but far from good) prototype, then I chose motors built the chassis, battery pack etc. Have now built a final version of the lift/tilt - it's good but needs some detail work. I think the date on my first drawings is 2011, drive motors were ordered in 2020, and it's been her daily chair since early 2022. I must be crazy to do this, with neither lathe nor mill, lots of time with a caliper and making crude tooling, using lots of rivets (with "matched hole" drilling) and epoxy bonding. However, at 100kg all up weight, it has 30 cm lift, 60o tilt and can support a 100kg user, and I think that's a good bit better than what one could buy. It even has one feature that was unplanned, but has proven pretty useful for Rachi. When the seat is fully raised, and tilted to the end of its powered travel (we don't drive with it in this extreme position), we can pull on the top of the backrest and rotate the seat to horizontal with her legs raised above her bod. Great for when her muscles have been spasming for hours and she needs a break from that.

[Burgerman]

Thats around 85kg better!

Lenny, look at this thread. https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... =2&t=11770

He has all accelerations and decelerations set to ONE percent! And keeps on turning motor compensation DOWN. That makes it completely uncontrollable. You need a stopwatch to make a turn and try to guess when it might stop turning.

His chair spun off a ramp and tipped him out... Not surprisingly. After around 30 seconds the TURN command finally kicks in and he cant stop that turning for another 30 seconds because of the turn deceleration. I have given up on telling him what the problem is. And he has a translation issue.

[Jay_x]

Very impressive! Really like the chair, looks amazing. Great job

[slomobile]

I hope the trip went well other than the breakage.
Great advice, chair, and placard. I'll be stealing the design for that bent tablet mount for sure. Is that just bent metallic conduit, or something stiffer?

At what point does a person need to leave their powerchair before boarding the plane? End of the ramp at the plane? At the gate? At screening? Ticket counter? Curb?

I wonder if it would make sense to carry a piece of plywood cut to the footprint of the chair, with slick plastic lining the bottom. Or a sheet of starboard UHMWPE.
Prior to exiting the chair, drive onto the plywood. Strap the chair to plywood using the hard points. Additional strap from plywood over folded backrest. Webbing grab handles and a webbing 'tow loop" velcroed to the plywood so a person can pull the chair behind them like a toboggan. Maybe the bottom should be rounded over a bit like a toboggan in case they decide to pull it through the airport behind a Cushman golf cart.

Or maybe a 2nd piece of plywood fixed over the chair to protect it if tipped on its side. Its hard to know how to protect the chairs without video of crews handling them so we know what behaviors to defend against.

I tried to fly once getting by with just a cane and airport chairs at the curb, and having a rental chair at my destination, but I couldn't tolerate the airport chair long enough to even wait at the gate for the first leg of the trip, so we packed it in and drove

[LROBBINS]

The airlines prefer that you leave your chair at check in and use airport chairs and aisle chairs. Rachi, and many others, can't do that so it is brought to the door of the plane and we carry her to her seat from there. Florence and Amsterdam, and I suppose many other EU airports, have high lift trucks that we drive onto and carry us right to the aircraft door. In the U.S. I've never seen one, so we roll via the jetway and then the chair makes a laborious journey back down to the apron, reversing that on arrival.

The mount for Rachi's computer is 16mm OD 302 stainless tube, but the socket it drops into and the color that keeps it from turning was made for us by our own Will of Willchair fame. It is a heat treatable martensitic stainless (one of the 400 series) much harder and stronger than the 302, which I'd used previously but couldn't withstand the stress at the collar.

I think that any platform would have to have wheels (the ground crews already struggle some turning motors through the gears), but would then make even the folded chair too high for many cargo doors - and not just smaller jets, many Airbus have large doors but they are on the belly of the plane and the airlines insist on using inclined conveyors instead of vertical lift devices and coming in from the side like that the height of the opening is awful.

[GunterBeckman]

The airlines prefer that you leave your chair at check in and use airport chairs and aisle chairs.

i never never had a problem to go with my chair to the plane's gate
and i can't say how many time i flew all around the planet as it is so much

when booking the employee ask me if i want to keep my chair until boarding or not; just need to say i want to keep it

[LROBBINS]

Lucky you. This varies from country to country, airport to airport, and year to year. Worst was once in Munich (Germany) when they absolutely refused to bring her chair to the plane and carried her up and down stairs on an aisle chair without belts. It hasn't happened since then (just some grumbling various times), but if it every happens again I will sit on the floor until the police come.