Problem with joystick chair did not want to move .-16celius

[yeshelp]

Replace the cable... From the other joystick...

Hi when you say replace the cable, do you mean cut both wire and solder them to make a new one?
Because the joystick I have has not plug in . the wires go through the joystick to the motherboard of the joystick. It is not really replaceable. what did you mean?

[yeshelp]

The Qtronix joystick is 100% interchangeable with ANY Pilot+ joystick, and any Pilot+ part will work in place of the Qtronix part, they are the same functionally, all they are is a slightly different housing and labeling... They are 100% just 'rebrands' of the Pilot+ parts...

It has been a few years since I looked, but it used to be possible to get used Pilot+ stuff on eBay for short money, and it's worth getting a few sets to have spares... Possibly the hardest thing to get are those Redel cables, as they are somewhat fragile and hard to come by... I have never done it, but I might be tempted to hack in my own pick of connectors that simply replicate the existing cables if I couldn't get the Redel cable. As BM said, those cables and connectors are the hardest parts to come by as they aren't available from the electronics houses, and P&G no longer makes or supports Pilot+

You will need to have the programming cable (instructions on how to make it can be found elsewhere on the forum, and we can also get you the needed software - ask...) and verify the programming settings (especially brake voltages and motor compensation) on any new power module....

(He may not want to admit it now, but BM used to LIKE Pilot+ back before he discovered R-net... I still use it on my current chair, though I may switch to R-net on my project chair)

ex-Gooserider

HI about the programming cable and software are you saying that if it is necessary to reprogram the pilot+ joystick?

[Burgerman]

Burgerman wrote:
Replace the cable... From the other joystick...

Hi when you say replace the cable, do you mean cut both wire and solder them to make a new one?
Because the joystick I have has not plug in . the wires go through the joystick to the motherboard of the joystick. It is not really replaceable. what did you mean?

I mean its just a cable. Cut off the ruined part, bare the conductors, solder to the internals in the joystick.
Or take the one with the connector from your other joystick and resolder it to the joystick that doesent work...

Personally I would replace the lot with R-Net as fixing, replacing, cables etc are very easy to get.

As for programming on the Pilot Plus/Qtronix systems then if you swap a power module you WILL need a programmer for it. Because wrong brake voltage setting makes a big $$$ problem! Wrong motor compensation setting makes a chair undrivable or dangerous.

Same applies if you fitted plug and play R-Net system. In both cases you need a programmer. But for any powerchair you ALWAYS need one anyway or the damned things steer like hovercraft...

[yeshelp]

HI
So i have decided to solder for a quick fix.

I looked at my older joystick and the wire is broken at more than one place including the place where it joins into the redel connector so i can not use it . Well the only thing i can use is to take a part of the blue wire to zero gap solder to the cable im trying to repair.

Now i know that it would be better to have a fixed joystick on swing away but i never liked it plus now that i have a dog it would be in the way and get hit with the leash. What i am trying to say is that the solder isok but the problem i have to adress is how to make that cable kind of solid because i know i will drop the joystick again and again.

The facts are that
-the cable strain relief is partly grinded down.
-the external protector cable will not absorb the shocks anymore since i had to completely take it off before and after where the blue wire is brocken
-I have little place for ?Something new? to grab on or glue onto ( the one cm of partly grinded cable strain releif)

If i take off the inside tie-wrap, do clean cut of all the wires where i made red lines at the very bottom,
will i be able to push the cable(with its black protector) in a way similar to the red arrows through the cable strain releif to reach inside the joystick? (Or maybe it is worth to wait for a new cable stain releive?)

If the clean cut cable can pass through, i could solder each wire one by one where the green circle is inside the joystick and add a new tie wrap. I would not wait for a new cable strain releif to buy and arrive since what really absorbes the shock is the tie wrap that sqeeze and prevent the black protector cable to get out.(Or maybe it is worth to wait for a new cable stain releive?)

If this path should work if you guys have idea of how i can reinforce the setup while i have access knowing i will drop that joystick again.

I am kind of scared to do that because if i do a clean cut of all the wires and i realise that i cannot push this clean cut cable through the strain releive i feel screwed! I would have to then what? use a drill to drill through the cable strain releive enough and pass the cable and add a tie wrap but i dont know how solid that would be .

What do you guys think?

Are there other options ?

If i just solder the blue wire i would need something to make that cable bridge solid again and i dont know how. Duck tape or tuck tape is not very solid long term. The electric shrink wraps i know are thin and i dont know how that would hold onto the grinded cable strain releive...
Maybe solder and poar epoxy or aquaseal or glue ontop of that cable and grinded strain releive?

Is there a solder or cable master in the community we can summon to know his-her advice and piece most adequate?

Thanks

[Burgerman]

I would buy the NEW UNUSED only one left in the world REDEL cable shown in the link.
I would also buy the JOYSTICK and the included used REDEL CABLE in the other link.

Then plug and play with a spare cable.

NO bodging, glue, or soldering needed.

But thats way more expensive that converting the whole thing to r-net... Where parts are available. Also plug and play.

If I was going to bodge, cut cable short, resolder etc I would use a new cable reliefe AND NO GLUE!!!

I made a new joystick from an old Pilot Plus case. I added a 12 core cable, and my own cable strain relief.
part made https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-co ... n/pod4.jpg
with cable etc https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-co ... -small.jpg
And https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-co ... e-made.jpg

Anything is possible no need to be covered in glue etc.


THIS is (was) a pilot plus joystick with a redel cable connector...

[yeshelp]

Hi
where are the links ?
I would buy the NEW UNUSED only one left in the world REDEL cable shown in the link.
I would also buy the JOYSTICK and the included used REDEL CABLE in the other link.

i cant find the link. Also sometimes the link from uk i receive from you from amazon or ebay can not be opened . Is there a way around because usually people ship world wide and i am not in deep africa.

Thanks.

I find it weird not to be able to find a used redel cable. Even a broken one. Is redel a very unique connector specifically to joystick of old system?

Isn't there a connector i could install on the joystick and solder . and solder the compatible connector on the cable leading to the computer? how hard would that be . could this piece be helpfull? how complicated?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002914421465.html

[Burgerman]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/186753184449
new

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333751414519
used with cable

Just cable...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126639068319

Strain relief to repair yours...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/267080929939

CRAZY prices because you are buying stuff that isnt made, scarce...
As I said a COMPLETE R-net system with more power is plug and play and £100 complete.

Many ways to skin a cat!
Many connectors or cables that you could use if you adapt it
Non of that would be a problem to me.
But if you are having to ask the question then maybe it is to you?

[Burgerman]

Are there other options ?

If i just solder the blue wire i would need something to make that cable bridge solid again and i dont know how. Duck tape or tuck tape is not very solid long term. The electric shrink wraps i know are thin and i dont know how that would hold onto the grinded cable strain releive...
Maybe solder and poar epoxy or aquaseal or glue ontop of that cable and grinded strain releive?

Is there a solder or cable master in the community we can summon to know his-her advice and piece most adequate?

Non of the things you propose will be reliable. It needs a NEW cable, retain PROGRESSIVE flexibility, as it exits the joystick and have proper cable relief.

So your options are buy R-Net (better system, brand new, easy and cheap to buy parts... low $
OR
1, Buy the NEW pilot plus joystick I linked $$$$$$$ + also buy the NEW redel cable I linked. $$$$$$$$
2. Buy the USED joystick AND cable, also linked. As a backup spare. $$$

OR
3. Dismantle the power module, and joystick, fit strain relief (linked) to joystick, add your own 6 core screened quality cable and solder at each end, no connectors at all.
As above but fit your OWN 6 core plugs and sockets as well.

OR some other solution...
Me? I would have spent £100 and fitted a brand new R-net joystick and power module, then sold the included ISM6-L seating module and recovered £50...
Total = £50 UK or $70 USD.

Or about a million canadian dollars (thank the morons that voted trudeau! Socialism etc.)

[biscuit]

Years ago my brother's old Triumph TR(4 iirc) won at a concours d'elegance for being the most original car shown. Everyone else had repairs, paintwork, touch ups etc. before they showed their vintage car. It was a devil to drive, that old thing - no cv joints, crash gearbox, those were the days. He also had a proper car for going to work.

[Burgerman]

OK...

Here is my brand new joystick.
And (2017 made, 29 miles logged) 120A R-net power module,
And the ISM6-L seating and lights module. (Which isnt needed in this posters use)
And a free connection bus cable came with it.

£100 delivered total.

[martin007]

OK...

Here is my brand new joystick.
And (29 miles logged) 120A R-net power module,
And the ISM6-L seating and lights module. (Which isnt needed in this posters use)
And a bus cable.

£100 delivered total.

For that price it's a gift.
I guess I bought in ebay.co.uk

Do you need a dongle to program it?

[Burgerman]

Yes.

But then you need one for every powerchair you have anyway or be forever at the mercy of other people and hovercraft steering. So that just goes without saying.

Plus if you rationalise your chairs, and stock up on R-Net systems WHILE WE CAN STILL PROGRAM THEM, and so you will always have r-net chairs, or always swap them over to r-net then it makes a lot of sense. Especially in this case as he doesent need the seating module. And so those normally go for £50 alone or more, plus a cable £20, to recover 70 of that initial £100 spent! End result would then be an as new 120A r-net system with brand new joystick for £30!!!

So do that a few times, and you have enough R-net systems for half a dozen new or future chairs or spares. A progamming dongle new is £300. Used ones half that.

Personally, I have the Q700, the Salsa, and the Dietz, as well as a BM1 chair all using R-Net.
And I have 4 complete R-Net systems on the shelf as parts.
That are either brand new (all the joysticks), etc, or very nearly new (all the power modules and seating modules taken from low use chairs)
So EIGHT complete systems, with 3 extra joysticks, and 2 attendant controls, an IOM module, a Gyro, several multi bus connectors, a mountain of bus and battery cables in a box.

Enough to build an additional 4 rehab chairs with every function. Enough to see me out! (The additional joysticks are because they always fail first)

[martin007]

Yes.

But then you need one for every powerchair you have anyway or be forever at the mercy of other people and hovercraft steering. So that just goes without saying.

Plus if you rationalise your chairs, and stock up on R-Net systems WHILE WE CAN STILL PROGRAM THEM, and so you will always have r-net chairs, or always swap the to r-net then it makes a lot of sense. Espe in this case as he doesent need the seating module. And so those normally go for £50, plus a cable £20, to recover 70 of that initial £100 spent! End result would then be an as new 120A r-net system with brand new joystick for £30!!!

So do that a few times, and you have enough R-net systems for half a dozen new or future chairs or spares. A progamming dongle new is £300. Used ones half that.

a new 120A r-net system with brand new joystick for only £30?????


The VR2 and VSI are programmed with only one cable...

Where do you sell dongles that you can program?

[Burgerman]

Do you mean buy?
Any chair dealer. For e.g Sunrise. Its on their listings.
Go to decent dealer and tell them:
108532 R-Net PC programmer (dealer version), inclusive USB cable Supplied with software, dongle and cable £ 294.50

And on chair order forms etc as "programmer".
And like the other R-Net stuff, it appears on eBay. But if they do and the price is right then they are GONE in a matter of hours. People have alerts set up. So a quick scan will likely never find the stuff I buy. You need to learn to fish ebay well! Across many countries. And be patient!

[Burgerman]

a new 120A r-net system with brand new joystick for only £30?????

IF you resell the unwanted parts I just got with that 120A power module yes.
Take a look at the selling prices of the uneeded ISM6-L module and the bus cable.

The VR2 and VSI are programmed with only one cable...

But both are low power super basic not very programable systems that I wouldnt want. Especially VSI as thats very very toy like and weak.

[martin007]

How do I set up an eBay account for these automatic alerts?

[Burgerman]

No idea. I said PEOPLE DO, probably 3rd party software.

I do it manually. 15 mins a day for maybe a week to a year depending what I am looking for. The secret is patience! And a way to search. A list of things you want. A list of common miss spellings, and countries, and if looking for a joystick search brand names of chairs, PG, PGDT, R-net, "brain" controller, powerchair computer etc. Many people list stuff in a way nobody finds. And nobody bids or buys... I have bought in the US, ireland, canada, spain, germany, and even australia. Then unless its super cheap make an offer about half.

[martin007]

No idea. I said PEOPLE DO, probably 3rd party software.

I do it manually. 15 mins a day for maybe a week to a year depending what I am looking for. The secret is patience! And a way to search. A list of things you want. A list of common miss spellings, and countries, and if looking for a joystick search brand names of chairs, PG, PGDT, R-net, "brain" controller, powerchair computer etc. Many people list stuff in a way nobody finds. And nobody bids or buys... I have bought in the US, ireland, canada, spain, germany, and even australia. Then unless its super cheap make an offer about half.

I'm currently doing the same.

[Burgerman]

My purchase 2 days ago surprized you?

Heres how others set up alerts...
https://ubuyfirst.com/ebay-alerts/

[Burgerman]

Heres an R-net joystick £40. Says used. Looks band new. 100% feedback. Offer 25, get it for 30?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/296936731018

Sunrise medical RETAIL prices.
JOYSTICKS
CJSM2 £679
CJSM (1) £680 (the plastic one with small screen is basically same price! £1 more)
LED basic (no screen, as in the link above) £456

CTRL-5 both types £916
120A power module, getting on for £726
ISM6-L £396

All plus VAT.

[martin007]

Heres an R-net joystick £40. Says used. Looks band new. 100% feedback. Offer 25, get it for 30?

Does it need a power module?

[Burgerman]

Of course.

There are no cheap ones right now though.

[yeshelp]

HI , Snow already falling I went for the quickest . Solder.

It went well. I had heat shrink.
Something wierd is that i found a yellow cable that was going nowhere *coming from the cable). I did not find another yellow wire loose or a place where i was coming from. It is clean cut.
Is this normal or is this a NO-GO danger, dont go out because this wire serves for xyz.

The chair moves , the joystick acts like normal.
Have you had heard of a yellow wire being in the cable but not serving anything?

Thanks

[Burgerman]

No idea. Maybe not used.

[ex-Gooserider]

IIRC the last time I took one of the joysticks apart, there was one of the small wires that was not connected to anything...
My recollection from some of the reverse engineering posts I've seen is that the two large wires were battery power, and the small wires had one as ground / reference, and two as plus / minus voltage swings around it, with the fourth wire as non-connected...

ex-Gooserider

[slomobile]

Edit. I started typing this before seeing it was already fixed. So, I guess this is just a general guide for future reference.

cable repairs. A last resort if you cannot find a replacement cable and/or joystick.
Do you see how the inside of the cable has brown paper between the inner colored wires and the outer black rubber jacket?
That paper is slippery against wire, because the outer jacket is meant to slide a little bit over the wires. Independent from the wires, so the metal conductors do not have any tension on them.
The outer black rubber jacket is the tension member. It is the tough thing that can get tugged on. Can stretch a little. Is fastened to the joystick case. The inner wires should always be slack, with nothing tugging on them. Except sometimes the slight tug of slippery paper.
If your repair does not recreate that original condition, it is only a matter of time before more wires fail. Your inner wires are currently taking all the tension. The way you use your joystick puts even more stress on the wires. I won't say the way you use it is wrong, use it any way that works for your body, but the cable jacket has to be tough to support your use case. Multiconductor cables often have a strong fiber tension member inside that does not stretch. The purpose is to carry a portion of the total cable tension, to relieve some stress(strain) carried in the jacket so it does not split as yours did. Yours is a very common type of cable failure and there is a large market of "strain relief" products available to solve it.

You need to completely remove your old repair at this point. It is not helping any longer. Do not fix the blue wire where it broke. Move the repair inside the case of the joystick. Make sure the joystick case eventually gets firmly attached, with strain relief, to a healthy undamaged cable jacket. That may require cutting out and repairing a section of all the joystick wires. That is OK. All of the copper wires near the point where the blue wire broke have been flexed the same number of times. You know that bending wire back and forth repeatedly causes wire to break. All its neighbors are the next to go. You need to completely remove and discard the first few inches of wire down from the break. They have all been work hardened and are damaged in a way that is not visible.

Look at the total length of the damaged cable. If it were shortened 150mm, would you still be able to plug everything in easily and use it as you like? If yes, reuse the existing cable. If not, you need to add some new cable. You can keep the original redel end, and enough near the joystick end with all outer jacket removed to join to the new jacketed wire.

You need to identify the wire gauge (thickness) of the inner conductors and replace with equal or larger. The wire colors probably wont be the same, that is OK. You might only find cables with a larger number of wires. Thats OK if the jacket will still fit the joystick case and strain relief. Just disregard the extra conductors.

When splicing multiconductor wire inline, it is best to stagger the splices over a longer segment, rather than having one huge ball. If you are comfortable with but crimps, or those new heat shrink and solder ring all in one but splices they are fine. If you really don't trust your skill, Wago lever nuts are easy and mostly OK. Wires might be stripped too long exposing conductors, not inserted far enough, not locked down sufficiently, or inserted in the wrong holes.

If you can solder, my preferred method is pre applied shrink tube sleeve and interleaved lap solder joints.
First strip 6-8mm wire(don't twist),
slide your shrink tube on past the joint,
secure both ends of wire in a 3rd hand,
smush the wire ends straight together so the conductor strands interleave with each other,
heat wire junction for a few seconds then allow solder to flow through the joint,
remove solder then remove heat,
let cool undisturbed a few seconds,
cover joint with shrink tube and shrink.
When all inner conductors are done, apply a large shrink tube over the whole thing.

If you want to ignore all of that, you can just repair the blue wire where it is. Insert the head of a zip tie through the wiring hole in the joystick case. Then inject some hot glue inside the joystick case at the wire opening to secure the wires and zip tie inside and provide a base. Slip some big thick heat shrink tube over the ziptie and cable. Inject the tube full of hot glue making sure it attaches firmly to the base. The glue will harden while the tube shrinks from the heat of the glue. Pushing some glue out the ends and creating a pretty rigid strain relief with ziptie backbone.

[martin007]

Paper between the wires?

[slomobile]

I thought I saw some brown paper liner in one of the photos. I don't see it right now. It is a fairly common feature of multiconductor rubber jacketed cable, but obviously not universal. It isn't featured in the repair in any way, just used as an introduction to strain relieving features.

Is it maybe a North American thing? I've never lived anywhere else so I don't know.