New (used) Redman Stander project chair

[ex-Gooserider]

Did some welding work on the chair today... Did everything with MIG as I don't have my electric foot pedal presser working yet, and really didn't need the extra fancy stuff you can do with TIG

Welded up the broken tab - only hard part was getting the MIG gun into the space...

Cut the ends of the old battery box down, and welded them across the middle of the two long pieces so that I now have the center part of the Group 24 size battery box tray... Next is to make the ends...

Hardest part was getting everything set up - that took several hours, the actual welds took just a couple of minutes... Then took another 20 minutes or so to grind everything down, but the joints are great - can't see the seam at all... However I now have a length of 2x4 that has been made into a 173mm wide Group 24 width mockup...

I may think about adding some uprights and putting a bit more support on the ends of the box as I really don't want to see those batteries get tipped out if I bash into something or do a hard turn, etc... They had a sort of plastic shell around the U-1's but I'm not sure I'd trust that kind of construction with the heavier / bigger batteries, nor am I sure I could duplicate it with what I have available to work with...

ex-Gooserider

[woodygb]

I've had a pop at deciphering one...

LA28.25SM-200-24-001

Spindle type: 2 = 6 mm (2 threaded) (6 mm pitch)
Option: 5 = Brake with safety nut

SM : • Available with extra powerful motor (Strong
Motor), increases speed and strength

Stroke length: 200 = mm

Motor type: 0 = 24V
IP-Degree: 0 = IPX1
Jack cables: 1 = Straight 1.09 m with reed

[ex-Gooserider]

That seems to match up pretty well, with what I have in my hand Woody, at least to the extent that I can tell what it is from the outside.

On other fronts, I've been welding away on the enlarged battery box project..

I found some angle that was the same size as what they used in the original box, and found that I could weld a length across the ends of long pieces with a couple of mills notch cut in them to bring the length to 441-442mm, and the width is almost exactly 173mm. I have done a test fit on my two group 24's standing on end, and they just go in.

However because the batteries have a slight taper from the top to bottom, especially where they are extra wide in the middle where the handle attaches, the bottoms are just barely caught within the bottom of the tray when the tops are all the way in. I could trim some of the extra plastic off, but would prefer not to.

Instead what I'm going to do is run some additional angle straight up about 6.75" / 170mm from the bottom, and then put a length of flat strip across the top of the uprights on the ends, and run more pieces down at 45* angles from the tops to the sides. This should provide good support for the batteries, and still let me easily get cables into the middle for electrical connections.

I chose those dimensions assuming that at some point I will do a Headway pack, and want the straps to cross at the level of the pegs on the ends of the building blocks...

In addition, I found some nice sheet metal stock in the scrap bin that I think will be big enough to let me make a nice enclosure around the box so the batteries won't be as obvious and give them some impact protection...

ex-Gooserider

[Sully]

Question,

I am very curious. You say you are going to sit the batteries in sitting on end, I am real curious how this will work! I know they are supposedly leak proof, but to exactly what extent? These battery cases are vented...

And the acid will settle down from the end plates if there are any voids at all. I would have supposed they have a well defined top and bottom to the cases, I am led to believe for a reason. What leads you to believe this battery combination will work this way?

[Burgerman]

Odyssey, Optima, both claim any way up except upside down. Theres no free space, the cells are thin layers of lead/glass mat as seperator with acid soaked into it via capilliary attraction. So shouldnt be an issue. Same with most Gel batteries. Gel is pasted and thixotropic and doesent move. Unless you charge it too high volts and blow bubble/voids...

[Sully]

OK I really learned something new to me. Who-d a thunk it!!! Thanks.

[ex-Gooserider]

Agreed, lead batteries with liquid acid in them are critical about their orientation - they MUST be kept upright or as close to it as possible, or the acid can spill, They also produce more gas during their charge cycles, which can aggravate the spilling problem if they are not kept close enough to upright to keep the cell vents above the acid level....

However every technical document I've seen on "VRLA" batteries - essentially AGM and Gel type batteries say that they can be used in any position, except possibly upside down, as BM said... The acid is such that it can't spill, and the chemistry and battery design is such that they don't make excess gas, so pressure isn't an issue.

This is why the air-cargo rules are so much easier on the gel and AGM batteries than they are on conventional liquid filled ones - it doesn't matter if they get tipped...

BTW, did some more welding on the frame, I'm almost done with it, just two more pieces to put in, but I need to do a little tweaking on it, as the uprights ended up slightly off, so that the top is about 3mm to small. I'm assuming that what I'll need to do is clamp everything on the base down, and then heat up the bottoms of the uprights a little with an oxy-fuel torch so that I can tweak the uprights without warping the base...

ex-Gooserider

[Sully]

Precision welding can be a challenge. Good tacks placed to keep part alignment is critical, and you (In my opinion) cannot be too fussy. Everything goes into preperation. Do you have a good supply of spatter spray?

At one 6-8 month period I worked in a production welding shop, they built transition pieces for the early and variable dish manueverers or rather interfacers. After we bulit these things they were sent for galvanizing, the spatter showed up like glitter after they were galvanized. That spatter spray made spatter removal such an easy project. I used a stone masons chisel 3" to scrape the frames after welding, it worked quite well.

Since I have had a plethora of work experiences over the years and many ot even thought about again. Much of my knowledge is sort of prehistoric so please forgive me my stupid remarks at times, and thanks for correcting my misunderstood prehistoric thinking. I will ask some pretty idiotic things, most because I was more interested in what I was doing for living, and fell way behind with what are thought to be run of the course technology today. But even at 73 years old I am still learning, much of it is very exciting.

[Burgerman]

Learning is ALWAYS exciting, it's what I live for.

[ex-Gooserider]

Not sure what you mean by "spatter spray" Sully... But I certainly am getting a good bit of spatter with the MIG settings I'm using - however between the scraping and grinding that I do in order to flatten the welds, it isn't a big deal. I do use a fair amount of "nozzle dip" on the gun. I also used to use a lube pad on the wire, but now that I'm working on leasing my welder to the Asylum, I'm not using that as the weld-shop leads don't think it's needed w/ current wires.

I've been tacking my parts in before doing finish welding, but I think I've been getting a bit ahead of myself in that I have basically been tacking one piece in, and then finish welding it before going onto the next level. I should have tacked everything until the assembly was finished and then gone back to finish weld the entire unit at once... However I'm going to make it work...

[woodygb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5g_4hImecM

[Burgerman]

That seems to work!

[ex-Gooserider]

Interesting looking stuff... Looks like the Eastwood folks have all sorts of "magic potions" for welding stuff, and a few interesting items for for other tasks as well...

However I've (I think) finished my welding on the battery box this evening, followed by much grinding I just wish an angle grinder could take off surplus bead metal as fast as the MIG gun can put it down...

However it came out pretty good I think as far as I can measure, I've got all the dimensions to within +2 / -0mm, and everything is nice and square, w/ no major warpage or other issues...

Now I will eventually want to build a cover for the box, but I may just do some drilling and tapping for now, then start putting things back together to see if I can get it to where I can at least see what other mods I need to make to the seat in order to make it fit me well enough to stand... (will have some photos soon...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

The final solution. No not that one!

TIG

NO grinding or cleaning up, very neat welds, no spatter. Do 1/2 inch at a time and cool it, no distortion.

Straight to the powder coater for blasting and coating.



http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3- ... uction.htm scroll!

[Burgerman]

Assembled and later tested, driven by RC with me in it, (fast! at 15mph...) and then pulled apart for correct wheels, blasting, powder coating etc. And now part re assembled again.



Here in rough test form, note rubber mounts at seat front edge. This allows the casters to hit a bump, and then jump up. The seat stays put due to its mass, and the footrest also stays put, as it moves with the seat. Takes some of the vibration away from the seat and footplate and reduces sudden pitch changes. It hinges on the single bolt where the rear of the seat attaches approx on my C of mass. Only a few degrees movement but seems to work ok. I have spasm problems induced by vibration.

[Burgerman]

It looks like this, but has a seat now. and a big orange and blue battery!

[ex-Gooserider]

Agreed, TIG is better, albeit slower... However I haven't gotten my foot pedal presser working yet, and it is really a bear trying to do some of the other control options - I know, I've tried....

A hand controlled torch puts your hand way back from the tip, which amplifies any shake, and makes it hard to maintain a precise electrode gap. Trying to work the foot-pedal with an elbow while feeding in filler wire from the same hand is also really awkward....

OTOH, MIG is easy since you just pull the trigger on the gun and go....

For now I'm using quick and dirty and going with MIG.

I've now drilled and tapped a bunch of 10-32 holes in the box so that I'll be able to attach a cover to it later, and degreased the thing (get rid of the cutting oil) - I may go after it with a flap-wheel in a bit and see about putting a coat of primer on it, or possibly do that tomorrow - will need to see what it looks like in the paint room....

ex-Gooserider

[Sully]

Sorry I lost this question....Not sure what you mean by "spatter spray" Sully... It is a simple spray that can be bought at most welding supply houses. It makes those pesky little beads of spatter very easily removed. You simply spray it on the surrounding metal and even over the weld joint itself. It doesn't hurt the weld itself.

This is not something that you would use splicing H beams but in a situation where appearances are important. I used this stuff weldng thousands of pieces that were to be galvanized and before these pieces were assembled as a unit. It does facilitate an ease of cleaning spatter by hand, not grinding, or mechanical methods. Simply ask for "Spatter Spray"

I hope this is handy information for all. It makes a cleanup quite easy.

[ex-Gooserider]

Well latest in the saga is another trip to the fat-farm for some more weight reduction...

The front wheel swinging suspension has these big blobs in it - which you can see in the picture

They don't have any obvious function other than to add (A LOT) of weight to the front end... I'm not worried about wheelies, and I want to get rid of as much weight as I can...

First step was to find out what they were made of - if it was just a steel block, it would have been easy to just mount it up on the Bridgeport and mill off most of it... So I took a drill to it, in order to see if it was solid. Turned out it wasn't - instead it was a steel shell that was filled with lead shot. If I machine it away, I'd loose structural strength, so best bet is to empty it out and just leave the shells - doesn't lose any strength that way, but still gets rid of a lot of lard...

Asked around as to the best way to empty it out, as it was to heavy as it was for me to move it around by myself easily, and I got a couple of volunteers to help me with it. I drilled a 1/2" hole in each blob, which allowed the helpers to pour out the shot, which lightened the entire swingarm by at least 50%. (I can now pick it up with minimal trouble...)

After that I took it over to the weld shop, where I've ground off the powder coat around the holes, and then filled them in with a MIG gun and ground off the bump. The part is now sitting in the paint room with the first layers of spray-bomb primer on it...

I'm figuring that between ditching the steel plates in the back under the old batteries, and the lead weights up front, I should end up with the chair being lighter, even going to the bigger lead batteries... (And at least now the weight will do something USEFUL!)

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

Finished spraybombing the front end this evening - now need to wait 48 hours for the paint to completely cure...

Fit and finish aren't planned to be even close to BM standards, but this chair is planned for use as a "work-mule" so I'm more worried about function...

Also I started putting some parts back on the main frame, though I can't go to far with that until I get the front end mounted back up, as it's kind of in the middle of things, plus getting it on will make it easier to move the chair around...

However I've got the motors back on, and one or two other small parts - will see where things go from here...

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

Starting to put stuff back together - have the wheels on it, as well as the first two actuators, and a few other items. Need to get the battery mounts figured out next, as that will need some mods to make the upgraded battery box fit as tightly as possible.

Also, rather than trying to fix the actuator that I broke while taking the thing apart, I want to see if one of the actuators that I got a while back will fit. They have the right stroke length, and should be strong enough, but the motor on the Linak actuator is parallel to the shaft, and the others have it sticking out at right angles to the shaft. I'm going to need to put stuff together and see if it clears or not... (or if I can make and adapter that will cause it to clear by repositioning the motor...) Considering that the Motion Concepts actuators are metal cased, with bushings in the mounts, I think they are better units if they will work... They also have an interesting and elegant over-range solution in that the motor keeps running at the stroke limits, but the shaft stops driving. OTOH, the Linak units still let the motor try to run while straining to drive the shaft that hard-stops...

One thing I'm trying to figure out as a repair I'll need to do eventually is to replace the tires (and possibly wheels?) on the front end, and definitely I need to replace the bearings, which turn OK, but feel "notchy" as hell...

The wheels are marked as Primo with no size markings on the tires. The rim is ~ 4.5"OD, and the tire ~7.5" OD 1.75" sidewall width, with solid tires, though they have notches for tubes... The wheels are reasonably nice looking if I don't have reason to change them... any idea what size they might be? Suggestions on replacement tires?

The bearings have a metal shield marked 608Z, Measuring sizes in inches w/ my dial caliper, and guessing at the metric equivalent, I get the following dimensions - ID = 0.313", OD = 0.865"(7/8"?), Thickness = 0.275". The shaft is a bolt 0.305"-0.310" (5/16") so I'm guessing metric 8 x 22 x 7mm. Anyone have easy access to a listing for the size number I should be searching for? (I know I want the replacements to be stainless w/ rubber shields, but not sure on the size)

I'm limited on the size I can go up to by the forks - they are just under 2.5" wide, and have approx 4" clearance from the axle to suspension bits, so I can't go up to the tires that BM uses on his chairs without replacing the forks... What would the best size be to use within that limit, and would I need to swap wheels?

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

The wheels are reasonably nice looking if I don't have reason to change them... any idea what size they might be? Suggestions on replacement tires?

They will be 4 inch rims, but narower than the ones I use. So no idea what tyres but they will be a common size. Try here http://www.electricscooterparts.com/tires.html

Bearings are easy.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6000-2RS-6000 ... 4841834436

Use drop down, and your size is listed.

Or http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/608-2RS-STAIN ... 33572fe636

[ex-Gooserider]

Thanks, will probably look for a US supplier on the bearings, , but that gets me started in the right direction.

Made some more progress today, and got the upsized battery box mounted. I wasn't able to pull it as far forward as I'd hoped, because I ran into problems with clearance on the rear tires... The sidewall - sidewall distance between the tires is about 16.5" and the new box is a bit over 17" wide, so the corners of the box rub on the tires if I push it forwards to far. I ended up with the front side of the box about where the original box was, which makes me a couple inches longer, but still isn't to bad...

I've been taking pictures as I've gone along, but haven't downloaded the camera for a few days, will post more soon...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/608-2RS-RS-Skat ... 53dcf65065

US eBay...

Not as cheap, or quite as easy but theres loads...

Try to go for blue ones (food grade) as then you can be sure that all is stainless. These small ones are the size used on my anti tips. There are 8 on the rear of my chairs.

Very small size for a caster.

[Burgerman]

I would replace those skinny front casters with 250 x 4 or 280 x 4 wheels/tyres/

250 is 2.5 inch wide.
280 is 2.8 inches wide. Obviously.

Both will fit the nylon corrosion proof sailboard / wind sail 4 inch rims. Here: http://www.atbshop.co.uk/wheels/primo-lightweight-hubs

With stainless 6001-2RS bearings

More http://www.atbshop.co.uk/mountainboard- ... ries/primo

[ex-Gooserider]

Well did a bit more detective work - I had a rear swingarm off an unknown model Jazzy that I had a chance to strip for some parts (it had been used in some other project, and then been partly picked over already, so I didn't get a lot off it...) and it turned out to have tires that are the same dimensions as the ones on the Redman, near as I can tell... Those tires are marked as being 200x50, and the electric scooter site you pointed at said they were also described as 8x2, which makes sense...

Since my forks are only a bit under 2.5" wide, I might be able to fit a 250x4, but I don't think I'd be able to fit a 280x4....

Would a Primo split rim sized for the 200x4 be OK with a 250x4? It looks like it isn't much narrower than the existing tires for whatever that's worth - maybe 1/4" difference between the flange and the fattest part of the tire bulge... They are pretty nice looking wheels, essentially a cast alloy mag, not cheap plastic...

The Mountainboard site you pointed at was only a 200x50, or the same size as what I have, and the plastic wheels didn't say what width they were. They did have a 250/280x4, but they didn't give an inflated width, and said the inflated diameter is 9" which would be a problem as the forks only have room for about an 8" diameter tire... (plus the UK location issue)

Will do a bit more searching for a tire that might work on this side of the pond - nothing against UK vendors, but I figure the freight and shipping time is likely to be a problem...

On other fronts, I've started putting a lot of the electrical stuff back together, and now have the seat frame back on, so it's actually starting to look like a chair again

Bad news is the Motion Concepts actuators I had won't fit - the length is right, but the motors on them stick out at right angles to the actuator shaft, and as such they won't clear the other parts of the chair when I put the seat down. The Linak actuator has the motor mounted parallel to the shaft so it clears everything with room to spare... So I'm back to trying to repair the busted end on that unit - I have picked up some round aluminum stock, and am planning to cut a sleeve that will fit over the broken stub, and secure it in place w/ a small cross-drilled bolt or roll-pin, and some high tech epoxy (3M #2216 has been suggested by one of the other inmates, he says he's found it very good for bonding Al and plastics, as well as filling any gaps) after I mill a slot in the sleeve to allow mounting in the original position. I think I should be able to get it reworked to not more than 1/2" or so more than the original length, which should work fine...

I've also done some measuring on that smashed data cable between the power module and the actuator / lighting module, and it looks like if I cut the smashed part off, the part with the connector that is left should be enough to allow mounting both modules and just running the cable straight between them.... I will just have to disconnect the old cable end and re-solder it - no big deal....(so no need to try and get a new cable)

ex-Gooserider

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

The Asylum had an "Open Studios" day today where we invited the general public to come in and look at some of our artist's work, tour the place, and so on, so I spent most of the day being a tour guide, but I did get some stuff done in the shops after we got rid of the tourists...

I made some spacers for the outer ends of the battery box - the batteries I'm using at the moment are taller at the top than the bottom, so I'm making some wooden spacers just to make them sit level... Unfortunately I just did some test fitting and found a minor problem - there are some molded ridges on the sides that I cut some slots for, but they aren't quite wide enough - will need to go back tomorrow and cut them a bit wider...

I started adapting one of the mud-guard / light units so that it will also hold the Anderson connector for doing the BM-style power hookup - I have the inner metal part done, eventually there is an outer plastic shell that I will need to make a corresponding notch in. but I think the result will work really nicely.

And last, I started making the aluminum piece that I'm going to use to fix the broken actuator end that I mentioned previously... Started with a chunk of 1 3/8" round stock about 6" long, skimmed off one end and faced it, then drilled a hole into the end that will go over the stub so that I can epoxy it in place. I still need to mill out the slot that the tab mounts into before I part off the finished piece and cross-drill it....

I've ordered the epoxy from McMaster-Carr, it's a really fancy 3-M commercial grade product, #2216, that was recommended highly to me by one of the other inmates. I just hope it is as good as claimed, as it was VERY expensive stuff - almost $50 USD for a two ounce package...

Actually did a bunch of shopping for big supplies of a bunch of stuff... I've got 20 SB-50 kits coming, and a big pile of the PP-15/30/45 shells and terminals in different sizes, and some assorted electronic stuff, including 3 25' rolls of adhesive lined shrink tube in different sizes, that will let me really do some serious chair wiring...

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

Finished making the replacement end for the broken actuator tonight, and since the fancy epoxy came in today, I now have it glued up and sitting there curing (takes about 24 hours)

I'm really happy with the way it came out, as it seems like a good fit, looks nice and only adds about 1/2" to the length of the actuator, which I don't think will be a problem.

Now it's back to working on the wiring some more. I've got several items on that list...

1. Start building the battery harness for both the BM style charge hookup and going up to the controller.

2. Shorten the cable that connects the ALM module to the main controller module, in order to get rid of that crushed section.

3. Try replacing the controller / ALM connections to the actuators with switches, so that I can change position on the fly, rather than going through that whole stop and switch joystick modes routine - if that works, design and build a switch box along with the appropriate wiring...

ex-Gooserider

[ex-Gooserider]

Had some delays - I spent a couple of days trying to find my battery cable lugs - was driving me nuts as I knew I had a bag of them, and couldn't find them anywheres...

Not a total loss as it caused me to clean up my space quite a bit, and organize things a bit more efficiently, but...

Finally found them tonight, they had gotten into one of my toolbox drawers and were under some other stuff...

Now I have the harness about half built, and partly installed, The part that goes from the BM charge plug to the batteries is done, but I need to splice into it for the leads that go up to the controller. In addition to soldering, I've found that getting a short (1/2 - 3/4") length of copper pipe / tube and crimping that over the wire joint makes a really strong and neat splice - essentially the same as a lug connection. Last time I made some I tried a 1/4" coupling, but that was a bit larger than I liked. I'm going to try some 1/4" pipe to see if that has a closer fit before I crimp it, but that means I need to make it to the hardware store (of course having to buy a long length of pipe means I'll have a "lifetime supply" at less than 1" per splice...)

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

What are you splicing?

I just use terminal rings crimped and soldered to the ends of cables, with a bit of heat shrink direct from battery to connectors. Nothing needs splicing?