Personal care budgets - CASH FOR WHEELCHAIRS!

[Burgerman]

Salsa, uses small group 22NF 50Ah batteries. 6mph with those isnt such a good idea. You range will suffer by around 40 percent over the TDX group 24 73Ah batteries.

The salsa is made "small" (as narrow as mine, and about 6 inches longer) by using small batteries and also uses a smaller control system. Less amps. This doesent matter at 4 mph, as the lower gearing and speeds makes up for the smaller batteries. Add a 6mph option, and range drops by about 40 percent as the amps required to turn, move about even slowly, increase by the same 50 percent difference in speed.

This may still be OK if you dont go far. But will mean that average battery depletion levels go up by 50 percent too. And this means that they too will have a much shorter service life. All this stuff is why OTs are the wrong people to advise on power wheelchairs!!!

Now, skinny? Stll no problem, possibly. Fat, 6mph, small batteries? Recipe for short range and regular battery problems. Not that I am saying you are fat!

[Burgerman]

>>> katilea, check to see if wcs are offering any maintenance cost on top of that £1500.
they do... And add it to the package.

[Katilea]

so BM, are you saying for someone between 10-13 stone would be better with the 4mph version cos the batteries would last all day if they didnt travel faster than walking speed?

If the chair had faster speed but same person only went slowly in it all day (eg out shopping with someone walking alongside) wouldn't they get the same range that day as the chair that only did 4mph max?

I never thought of this as I only kind of used mine to get somewhere and back eg if I go down to Asda. I usually drive down there full speed then obviously slow down once i get in car park, switch to 4mph mode to get around for my shopping, then back to 6mph to get back home and its uphill all the way!! .. though it will still manage another walk later with my dog also steep hill in other direction, but obviously I don't sit in that all day. It then gets charged from about 7pm right through to next day when use it to take her out again.

so some days the new chair would only be been used around the house, and the tilt and seat riser functions would be used more than going any real distance, so batteries would probably last a good few days on indoor use only?

[Katilea]

lol! just noticed your last comment! my body is a complex issue.. lol!

I put on a lot of weight around abdomen area although arms and legs are still skinny. (kind of look more slightly pregnant than fat all over if you get what I mean) unfortunatley some of the weight is from tissue swelling from my condition and some from non-cancerous tumours in abdomen. I was hoping the extra involuntary movements would help shift some weight but surgery maybe only solution to that!.. but thats an whole other issue with the NHS!

I really liked the TDX but I agreed to try the Salsa so will go ahead with home demo to see how it handles just getting into small park for when its needed as back up for walking my dog. I have to think of my finances as I have other stuff I will need in future too and having to put so much towards the TDX is a bit of a financial stretch! Now you have explained the weight/speed issue which I didn't think about in relation to needing it to last the entire day I'm having a rethink!

This new chair is for full time indoor use so it needs to last all day and to get me to smaller indoor places where I can no longer manage leaving scooter outside and walking inside ie doctors/dentists/post office/hospital appointments etc as can no longer manage manual chair outdoors independently.

My old scooter will still get heaviest outdoor use for dog walking daily and will be kept for that purpose.

Does the persons weight in comparison with the chairs weight limit make a difference too? I'm assuming I'd get more range out of chair with like 22st weight limit than an 18 stone weight limit? (if I was around 12 and half)

[Burgerman]

I havent seen your pic! So nothing personal.

No with full sized group 24 batteries as used in the TDX SP (as long as you make the correct options choices) and a busy all day schedule 10 to 14 stone would work best at 6mph max speed chair. An 8mph chair for eg would give less range (may still be adequate?) and around 20 percent less torque for curbs/ramps etc. And a shorter battery service life.

With group 22nf 50Ah batteries (about 1/3rd smaller) as used in the salsa chair then your range will be less, and the battery will again be shorter lived. Unless you also go with the standard 4mph. Your choice! I would get the TDX SP or something that took "full sized" 70Ah batteries.

[Burgerman]

Added... If you get an 8mph chair for eg, and drive at 4 mph, you DONT SAVE ANY RANGE!
The power to go faster comes from the gear ratio chosen - this determines the speed. If you buy a faster chair with the same battery size as a slower chair it will always have less range even at the same slower speeds.

The BIGGEST problem with all electric vehicles is the balance between, speed & torque & battery size/weight -- bigger batteries = bigger chair.
You need to understand this because this is everything. The rest is all marketing and bullshit.

The battery is always the limiting factor. Its the reason "small" indoor powerchairs are slow... At least the way the powerchair industry design them.

And why my 15mph chair needs lithium batteries... It allows a huge 3x better 45 mile range, AND a real 15 mph capability with lots of torque AND a small footprint for TDX mid wheel style, indoor capabilities!

Lithiums... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3- ... rchair.htm
New chair info... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3- ... rchair.htm

[Katilea]

What do you mean by torque when you said like 20 per cent less torque on kerbs?

[Burgerman]

Torque is the twisting force. Or the ability to climb a steep slope, or up a curb, or over a threshold. Or over a drunk. Or to steer correctly on grass/carpets etc. Depends where you are!

Torque depends on a bunch of things, but in a powerchair it needs 3 things... Big "amp" controllers like 100 amp is better than 70 etc, good batteries - big is better usually, powerful motors.

Chairs with lower gearing have more torque anyway. So need less of the other three things!

So a faster chair NEEDS bigger batteries, bigger higher power controllers/motors to have as much climbing ability (torque) and range.

So when someone tells me for EG that they have bought the 8mph Q6000 over the otherwise identical 6mph version, I can say several things without even testing it. As long as batteries and control system are the same, the faster chair will likely be about 20 percent less powerful (torque actually) and have about 20 percent less range. Its batteries will need rfeplacement much sooner, and take longer to charge. That will make it a bad buy for a heavy user, that wants all day use, who lives where there are lots of ramps or hills. And the opposite is true. Physics dictates this. No need to "test".

[Burgerman]

Do you drive? And can get some simple modifications done? Then range or all day use need not be a problem. If you want you can charge fast as you drive. See http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/faster- ... arging.htm

All of these things are inter related. You need to consider all these parameters before you decide which chair will suit you best. EG if I wanted a faster smaller chair with small batteries, it would no longer worry me because I can put a huge amount of the battery charge back as I drive home in a very short time...

Typically enough of it in 15 mins to do the rest of the day. At up to around 100 amps direct from your cars electrical system. Your mobility charger will be 5 or 8 amps... So this is around 15 or 20 times quicker! Works fastest with Odyssey AGM batteries.

As with everything in life - knowledge is power. And theres really a lot going on with powerchairs and far more options than the OTs understand, or could ever take account of. The more you know, the better informed decisions, and the better your mobility can be. And you can save a lot of money too.

[ex-Gooserider]

Jumping in for a moment, I noticed you mentioned getting 2-3 days out of a charge... This is a BAD idea no matter how much or how little you use the chair. Your batteries will last much better if you plug them in any time you have a chance to give them a quick partial charge, as well as a full charge EVERY night, no matter how little you've used the chair....

Also, the weight limit on a chair will have relatively little to do with it's power consumption given the same user weight - if anything the heavy duty model might be a little WORSE because the chair has had to be built stronger and thus heavier (also the heavy duty model is likely going to be bigger physically) That said, a few pounds difference between two different models is probably not anything to worry about.

ex-Gooserider

[Katilea]

When I got my first mobility scooters I was always told different things about the batteries. The scooter gets used everyday and charged every night. Sometimes if I do really long run in morning like down to asda I'll top it up before taking the dog out for her afternoon/evening walk.

My 'spare chair' usually gets used a couple of times a week and lasts for 2 outings around the park on 2 different days then I usually charged it up. the chair when you plug it in takes 12 hours every time before it goes onto green so impossible to do a quick top, the scooter however will do a quick top up in about an hour or two. But does same at night it desnt take long to go onto green and I just leave it to trickle charge until it's needed next morning.

If you have one of the chargers that takes hours to turn green can you still just put it on for an hour and take it off when its still only on the orange light?

When I looked on brochure for TDX I was surprised the speed is shown as 8km/h which only works out at just under 5mph and has 74ah batteries I think. The salsa shows 50ah but I wondered if maybe could squeeze 60ah in? Is there much size difference? Noticed from brochure you seem to have to lift up the seat on Salsa to get to batteries, not sure how that works if you have seat riser and tilt functions on too?

[Burgerman]

You can always plug any charger in for a short boost on all lead based batteries. Its much better to get something back into them than to let them get discharged. I regularly top up my batteries maybe 3 or 5 times a tay, while I drive somewhere, in my car, while I type emails sat at PC or while I eat...

All lead batteries LOVE to be kept topped up. They age much faster the deeper they are discharged. The various lights on the different chargers dont mean much. They all work much the same behind the scenes, Using tour chair for 2 days between charges will mean your batteries will need replacing sooner.

With batteries - even if you top up almost completely during the day - and dont go very far, you should still charge fully overnight if you used it at all. And once a week / 10 days even if unused.

The DOD (Depth Of Discharge) is the biggest factor in determining battery life. You get 10s of thousands of shallow cycles. But literally a couple of hundred deep cycles where you go many miles. This is another reason why faster chairs, or chairs with smaller batteries are not always a good plan!

Fitting "some" 60 Ah batteries OF THE SAME QUALITY in place of the 50Ahy ones if they will fit, which isnt likely would give a 20 percent better range. But there is more to batteries than Ah...

[Katilea]

Thanks.

I don't drive no, so don't go far from home in them, its just to give me independence to get about the village while family are at work etc. When I go out with them for pub/meals etc I just use manual chair as they don't have a van. I got a Da Vinci chair where the legs folds under the seat as well as the back folding down and that fits in friends small boot and families saloon car boot. Don't see point using powered chair in those situations mainly cos village pubs are very small anyway and once they've pushed me in we're sat in same place all night anyway!

I originally just had scooter till I moved here, but now further from town, taxi's won't take scooter cos its too big and nearest park up road has swing gate so got the Vibe cheap as back up chair and for indoor appointments.

I do think I need the indicators for these roads around village as have to come off dropped kerbs early to get across junctions, i need that extra dash of speed and lights so cars coming up behind me can see which way I'm trying to turn.

When I do eventually get a van, (don't see point till have full time helper to drive it for me) I'll remember about the car charger gadget and get one so we can get a bit further afield and charge chair in van. I didn't know they existed!

I have low energy and get tired quick anyway so after one trip out I have to rest so there's opportunities throughout the day for the chair to be 'topped up'. It's been interesting to learn about this but I think they should teach you this stuff when you get your first powered chair/scooter. The guy told me the batteries have a memory and if you charge them after too little use it only charges them that much every time after a while so they wouldnt get fully charged if I had discharged it longer on another day. So I've been waiting till Vibe gets onto orange lights before I charge it, as it as it takes full 12hours each time anyway for light to change colour regardless of how much it had been used.

[Burgerman]

When I do eventually get a van, (don't see point till have full time helper to drive it for me) I'll remember about the car charger gadget and get one so we can get a bit further afield and charge chair in van. I didn't know they existed!

No gadget needed. Just a new way to connect the batteries up. And it didnt exist as far as I know till I came along. Also you can use the hyperion charger for this. But its slower. But still lots faster than the "mobility" charger. Which is an odd name for something that makes you go home and charge for 8 hours!!!

Your "EXPERT" that told you to run them low is repeating the mindless mis-information that many such "experts" keep on telling people. Its the fastest possible way to DESTROY your lead based batteries that there is.

How many times!!! The only batteries that ever had any "memory" were some specific Ni-Cad (not lead!) ones used in nasa satellites many years ago. And even then to reproduce that is practically impossible even scientifically! AZnd practically nothing uses these cells now anyway.

[Katilea]

sometimes I think they tell you these things so your batteries wear out quicker and you go back more often for new ones!

My current scooter batteries are doing better than last lot, though last december they seemed to start going really slow but then I got snowed in, I kept it charged up every night just in case I could get out the next day but couldn't for 2 weeks, after two weeks of been charged everynight but not used they seemed a lot better the next time I got chance to use it outdoors when snow had melted and I've have still got same batteries in. The chair batteries usually last at least a couple of years, only the first set when I first got chair only lasted a month but they were found to be faulty and got new ones replaced free. Scooter batteries.. shortest I've had only lasted 3 months.. longest time has been just short of 2 years but as I say it seems I wasn't given the correct information about charging!

I did around 5 miles this morning (with scooter) to a local nature park and we have steep hills here and my dog wanted a ride part of the way on footplate (she's 10 now and its a long walk for her with all the hills), it will usually manage her second shorter walk too although I was just planning to go to little park with chair later, its handy when I'm too tired to go far which is why I always test potential new chairs with that swing gate.

I think its stupid that NHS don't arrange home demo's for new chairs and was surprised when woman said she wasn't interested whether it fitted my environment only if it fitted me. Especially as they so keen on cutting costs surely it would make more sense to make sure the chair they provided was suitable for the persons local environment.. not just around their own home! I guess it would be too time consuming?

I have managed to find someone who can demo the Salsa to me Tuesday, as I can't see how I'm expected to know if it's right from just sitting in it in a wide wheelchair friendly clinic room when my village is the complete opposite! It's all very well them saying dont drive over sloped pavements when I'm surrounded by them!!

I guess I'm lucky under the circumstances I had the intelligence to work out how to handle this terrain myself as they obviously don't teach these skills anywhere!

[Burgerman]

sometimes I think they tell you these things so your batteries wear out quicker and you go back more often for new ones!

No. As sad as it seems, the vast majority of everyone involved in powered mobility equipment are frankly useless and clueless. That includes many of the manufacturers.

Ask me how I know! The idiots at the end of the line doing the selling are the least knowlegable of the lot. I know one or two. They ring me up all the time! Seriously, I estimate 1 in about 100 has any idea whatsoever. Including the NHS specialist "experts"(!) of whom I have had discussions with over the years in several towns on behalf of other people with issues. Some are nice geniuine people. But are failed lawnmower mechanics or similar... But they know everything, they went on a "course" or two.

[Burgerman]

The best chair for any active user that uses it all day long is the following:

The chair that gives the best INDOOR capability. That means it should be controllable, tight compact, and have low seat height. So no wider than you are seated max. No longer than you are seated from head to toe seen from above.

And if you go outdoor, it needs to have as much range, speed, power, torque, and fast charge capability as possible. It should also use eithr very good suspension or big fat low pressure soggy all terrain tyres for comfort. The world isnt all smooth pavements. In fact non of it is other than shopping centres! And the fat tyres are essential if you walk your dog in winter on grass, sand, mud, snow... Without my fat high floatation tyres I wouldnt have made the pub over christmas for a solid month due to snow! And the dog couldnt have been walked.

Never mind shopping. Couldnt get my van out but my chair worked fine. If a bit uncomfortable!

And you ABSOLUTELY need to try a chair out in your env. as how else can you know? They wont let you because they know you wont like it!

What you need is an X5 that is slimmed down from 28 inches wide to 25. And from about 48 inches long to about 38. And with the seat lowered from about 23 inches to about 17. Then with its 120 amp DX2 control system, full sized batteries and fat tyres it would suit almost everyone. Which is why I built my own.

[baker99]

Any news from your meeting on Thursday BM, hope it went well.

[Burgerman]

Yes, we sat in the sun in my garden... For about 2 hours.. The Department of health boss man and his goverment coleague are interested. Keenly, since they see the WCS as a bit of a disaster area. Lincolnshire is the first to do this care budget to include wheelcxhairs (and other equipment) and the dept of health want in on it.

EDIT!!! This reads wrong! They are INTERESTED but the Dept Of Health guys (guy) are going to visit - not been here yet!

So thats slowed thing up a lot!" Expected money by now but instead it means lots of form filling for the care people, nhs lincs bosses etc. And I have to meet the health minister (name eludes me!) myself here at my house apparently with the other people concerned soon...
To explain why its better for me to have cash to use on my mobility, than to be forced to use the voucher scheme, or to use a motorised NHS deckchair. They basically WANT to be able to give personalised budgets for this, cushions, car hoists, and anything that improves flexibility for those that are unhappy with the usual hopeless assessement/harrier solution!

So I have to do a few meetings. And have to be polite, explain the problem, explain how much better it is to be able to spend the money MY WAY as in my BM2 and BM3 powerchairs. So we wait again...

[baker99]

Sounds promising, glad they understand how badly WCS is failing, I wonder if I can get reassessed once the new system comes in On another note, which probably doesn't affect you much but will for others, I read a report suggesting that WCS should service and maintain any chair (private or NHS), whether it has been modified or not, I'm sure you wouldn't want them touching your chair but I know it would make things easier for me, thought I'd better suggest it as you are our ambassador now You'll be sipping port in the members lounge at the commons in no time, not to mention interviews on newsnight, I don't envy you your future fame.

Well done BM, it really did need someone to stand up and fight WCS, I hope things work out well in the end, especially for you, you really deserve it after all this hard work, I'm pretty sure I couldn't have kept it up as long as you have, and I definitely haven't got the engineering expertise that has served you so well when talking to WCS and their 'engineers'.

And finally thank you

[Burgerman]

I didnt do anything really other than complain and explain how bloody useless they all were. And finally found someone that "got it"...

They did / are trying to do the rest. I am just the hooligan that caused all the trouble!

However:

>>> Yes, we sat in the sun in my garden... For about 2 hours.. The Department of health boss man and his goverment sharing coleague are interested. Keenly, since they see the WCS as a bit of a disaster area. Lincolnshire is the first to do this care budget to include wheelcxhairs (and other equipment) and the dept of health want in on it.

This bit read wrong! EDITED ABOVE!!! They WILL be visiting apparently!

[greybeard]

Very frustrated!!!

Read this thread from the beginning and just as it was getting really interesting I got to 22 April 2011 - then - NOTHING!

What's happened since? Did it all die a death, or did the scheme become a reality?

[Burgerman]

Pilot scheme was ended, not enough people interested. The usual problem of most people wanting someone else to take all the responsibility. To assess, decide, organise, buy, and maintain. Or couldn't buy cheap enough without adding their own money to get their preferred options.

My budget is being renewed at the moment, as it works great for me. And I am now the sole user. Blame apathy.

[greybeard]

Apathy! Sign of our times.

Glad it worked out for you. At least you will benefit from your advocacy because you had the guts and determination to fight the system. I can't help feeling the rest of those who have to rely on the WCS throughout the UK have been let down by the other disabled in the trial area. Once initiatives like this fail at the trial stage they can rarely be resurrected. Pity.

[Burgerman]

Yes works great. You get money, not a powerchair. Then you get to decide if you want to buy used, have 2 complimentary ones (say travel and indoor, or off road and indoor?), maintain them yourself, buy ebay parts, or one new chair that is more expensive than the basic INDOOR/outdoor NHS one.

Its called flexibility. In my case I build my own. But it offers me greater freedom, choice etc. I just need to keep receipts to the value of the amount for each 3 year period.