Which Powerchair Controllers are best? (Penny & Giles, DX )

[Burgerman]

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/penny-g ... s-best.htm

Just updated this page in light of what JoeC told me, Dynamics Tech guys and P & G guys told me. Plus I then did a little testing!

But I only know about these two systems. So Anyone with any info (or corrections?) to that page or about other systems such as prides own or the one used on the Quickie powerchairs (Qtronics???) etc.

Thanks!

[JoeC]

Qtronix is just a re-badged P&G Pilot+. The programmer is the same, the connectors and plugs are the same, as far as I can tell only the mold they used for the joystick housing is different. Oh, and any stickers or decals- which is what I meant by re-badged.

In my experience, a lot of the Dynamic DX module that I buy on Ebay were originally installed in Pride chairs. Some of these chairs are rated for users up to 500 or 600 pounds, so they really couldn't cut corners on the electronics or the chair wouldn't be able to get over the threshold out of the showroom.

It should be noted that Invacare owns Dynamic, and some of the controllers in Invacare chairs are based on controllers you see described on the Dynamic website. The Gearless Brushless controller appears to be made or designed by Dynamic, and some of the MK-5 controllers I have seen on Ebay appear to be based on Dynamic Shark controllers (a lower end model that's more on par with the P&G parts).

[Burgerman]

I will add this info to the page and a link from the page to this thread.

Will the PP1 programmers work with the Q-Tronics systems directly then?

I have a guy emailing me asking what he needs to remove some walls. He also plays powerchair football and has a 40 percent max wall in reverse speed. So presumable he needs the OEM software to set these all at 100 percent.

[JoeC]

I already emailed him back, and let him know that he needs to find a shop that can move the walls for him, since PP1a and PP1b won't do that. It's true, the PP1 programmers work with the Q-tronix modules, they are exactly the same as a P&G Pilot+.

We had exactly the same problem with someone on my local team- he was limited to about 50% reverse, and it was a huge disadvantage. I think his turn acceleration or speed was also limited to 75%. It was a big improvement when we changed that!

When I called someone (wish I could remember if it was Quickie or P&G) to see if there was any way to move the fences out farther, to get something like 200% acceleration (a half second ramp rate for example), and their exact words were, "It's a wheelchair, not a carnival ride!"

[Burgerman]

I also just emailed him before I read this telling him he needs the OEM level programmer. Which I have here. Its a S-626 chair by the way. Did he email you too?

[JoeC]

He did email me, and I replied to him earlier this morning. We probably told him the same thing. The guy on our team who just upgraded to a P200 with Dynamic DX controller has his old broken S626 with a perfectly good control module in it, with the walls moved appropriately and the programming already proper for soccer. I offered to put them in touch if he just wants to buy the module, since I assume that two-way shipping across the Atlantic won't be cheap or fast.

This is a side-topic, but the S626 broke down beyond repair when the aluminum/magnesium wheels had the hub keyway worn and broken by poorly fitted steel keys. The output shafts of the motors were also badly broken, and the wheel eventually fell off. This lousy connection between the motor and the wheel is why Sunrise immediately created the S646 and S646SE. Sure he could get new motors and wheels, but for less money we were able to upgrade a used chair to an even higher standard of driving performance.

[JoeC]

Worth a mention!

http://www.libertmedtech.com/controllers.html

It looks very very different from other controllers that I have seen. It does 220 amps to the "traction motor" and 105 amps to the "steering motor"- for multiple minutes at a time. Yet it's controlled by a joystick- this may be the exact controller for the one who wanted to make a 4wd center-articulated offroad chair.

I came across this chair when a friend asked me to help her look for a more suitable chair that insurance would pay for. I remembered a couple years ago drinking with a student who used one of these:

http://www.nextmobilitynow.com/power.php

Still have a scar on my ankle from all of us trying to get into the elevator after so many beers! It was a beast of a chair, but I don't remember it driving in a radically different way from other chairs. Now that I see these data sheets, I'm very curious to see how that chair's drivetrain is put together.

[Lord Chatterley]

Looks like the Dynamic DX2 90 is the one to go for if you face a lot of ramps and steep inclines. Thanks.

[Burgerman]

I added JoeC useful comments to that page too.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/penny-g ... s-best.htm

As well as making any chair potentially better on ramps, slopes, thresholds etc it means real torque is possible with 8mph motors. That is the reason I am retrofitting some 8mph 4 pole motors to my own all terrain/in/outdoor homebuilt chair on my site. Time and money allowing!

But that 8 mph thing will still only be a real success with
a) Decent Odyssey, Optima etc AGM dual purpose deep cycle and starter batteries. Deep cycle only, and Gel batteries like the MK batteries just dont allow that amount of Amps anyway. Which is why ALL existing chairs that do 8mph or more lack torque and they get worse as the batteries discharge and age. Its a combination of battery capability and controller output.

b) The group 24 / 34 batteries will obviously suffer range problems still due to the heavier current demands of the controller/8mph gearing/my programming.

But I have room for 110 amp hour batteries and still keep chair looking exactly the same. and have fast charge capability both at home and from my van... So I accept that.

[CPguy]

It just came to my attention that Sunrise Medical apparently uses uses a customized controller from Delphi (a large automotive supplier) on its "Quicke Groove" models. They seem to be quite secretive about technical data as I only found limited information here http://delphi.com/manufacturers/dti/ava ... nd-module/ and here http://www.quickie-power.com/groove_be_ ... %20NEO.pdf .

Does anybody here have technical info on the controller?

[Burgerman]

Non other than they have had many issues and reliability / jerky / no response due to shaft encoder/software (firmware) issues. I would avoid...

[CPguy]

Right. I shall take your word for it and will not waste time searching for technical details then. Many thanks for the fast reply.

[JoeC]

Seconded! The Rhythm chair that I saw with Delphi electronics was thoroughly un-drivable. It had been reprogrammed by a technician while in the presence of somebody who prefers a very direct chair and who is very good at expressing these sorts of things firmly and precisely. The chair was sent back.

Also, I hear word from a vendor that Sunrise is already switching away from Delphi- not a good experiment.

[Burgerman]

Frankly sunrise are idiotic when it comes to control systems.

They are even worse than Pride (Quantum) when it comes to

a) fitting a sytem with enough amps (currently sat here in an olde original 80 amp F55 with the thing reprogrammed to the max and GOOD batteries and 4 pole motors, Its crap! It stalls when doing ramps etc.) So its not usable even after reprogramming. The 100 amp unts are better but stll lacking.

b) programming... So much turn "acceleration" and worse, deceleration, at both fast and slow speeds that it's totally unusable and cant properly be steered... NON (disabled) is much better (100) and reduced turn rate. then its accurate.

c) they sent the original very early 2 pole motor F55chairs out with 35 as the motor compensation. That is the figure that should be used on a typical 4 pole motor. So they barely moved. Smooth is what they called it! Clueless or what...

Any of these systems can be set up properly and controllably but they just dont. Or seem not to know or care.

[CPguy]

I found a somewhat dated controller with dual channel 105 Amps (according to a graph also a 120 Amp 2 min boost) in combination with a "LTM-Bus" instead of the "CAN-Bus" we know. (http://www.libertmedtech.com/controllers.html) Ihave never seen this stuff on the market in Europe; does anybody here by chance have first hand information on this controller please?

[JoeC]

I posted that a while ago- it's normally installed in the Omegatrac-

http://www.nextmobilitynow.com/omegatrac.php

The chair is unique, and so is the electronic control system. The chair has a single drive motor, and a steering motor. I'm not really clear on how they arrange it mechanically, but it's different from any other chair I've heard of. So, unless you have the same physical arrangement of motors/actuators/whatever that drives the Omegatrac, then the chair won't work.

It does look like an extraordinarily strong controller- it has to be! The chair is aimed at climbing hills and outdoor terrain, and it weighs 225 pounds without batteries... so by the time you add batteries and a user and whatever else, the motors and controller have to move around well over 500 pounds of stuff, up and down hills.

The bottom line is that this controller, without the chair, is kind of useless to us unless we're looking for a science project.