Battery ADD on pack - First Attempt -

[Burgerman]

I think you should get someone to help you. As it is it looks like you will blow yourself up. Model plane club, local model shop will do it for you.

[flagman1776]

As Burgerman has said: NO your first picture is all WRONG. Your second picture could be right, if the First was done right.

In it's simplest form, a battery pack is like a TRAIN. The unused coupler on the front of the locomotive is the POSITIVE, every car in line behind it faces the same way. The last (unused) coupler on the caboose is the MINUS. This is a SERIES.

Bus Bars are like couplers. It does not matter if the train is on a straight track or zig-zagging all over. The cars are still connected in the same order.

[Burgerman]

THIS one is correct, IF you join all the places on the other end where there are gaps shown here.

[expresso]

Image1.jpg

THIS one is correct, IF you join all the places on the other end where there are gaps shown here.

Ok i see this one is Good then - i am finally getting the other 8 Cells shipped - soon i can start -

i was just doing something in the meantime - but worst case - i am going to follow the very first Picture i posted -

if i made two of these rolls - - then the tricky part would be for me to connect them together

i have no help here - its me and this site - who ever helps me here - i will have someone helping me but she knows less than i do phyiscal and company help

but i have to rely on you BM - Shirley- who ever here can also -

[expresso]

Its why I keep telling him to learn why so HE knows its wrong, and not try and copy things.

He plays audio stuffs . I thought he is playing Dynaco tube amp like I do.

The picture on the top of this page is damm right . Enlarge the photo and you can see the +/- . Follow it.

i was getting bored and wanted to do something but i will follow the very first PIC which is correct that you fixed for me -

your right - i do audio - i was about to get a Tube Amp for my Klipsch forte II but will hold off on that for now - since i got a Kenwood KA 801 and dont have room for a Tube amp - plus i couldnt decide which to get -

back to the batteries - my other 8 cells shipped and you shipped me the BMS - so soon - i will post back pictures so you can help me with the balance wires etc,

[expresso]

As Burgerman has said: NO your first picture is all WRONG. Your second picture could be right, if the First was done right.

In it's simplest form, a battery pack is like a TRAIN. The unused coupler on the front of the locomotive is the POSITIVE, every car in line behind it faces the same way. The last (unused) coupler on the caboose is the MINUS. This is a SERIES.

Bus Bars are like couplers. It does not matter if the train is on a straight track or zig-zagging all over. The cars are still connected in the same order.

thanks - i hope you watch the posts once i start - could always use help i will post pictures - and the way i feel now - no matter if i go to school for this stuff - i still wont get it -

its not my field of knowledge - may never be i went ahead with this because i figure it cant be that hard and with help from others who do know what they are doing -

[expresso]

IMHO it is also probably a good idea to cover any parts of metal tools with shrink tube or electrical tape except for the parts that need to be exposed to work... Minimize the risks of dropping things or other accidental contacts with live parts.

ex-Gooserider

Remember that.

When you assemble these cells and bus bars, they are live. You cant turn off a cell. Each one can produce hundreds or thousands of amps if shorted out. So you need to do the following to be safe.

1. Work carefully, because a dropped tool or bus bar (connector part with 2 holes in it) can short out cells. Much heat and sparks will be produced.
2. Wear eye glasses and rubber gloves, and be careful! You cant get a shock, volts too low. But you can be burned.
3. Be aware! Don't try and join the wrong terminals!!!

yes i will try to be as careful as i can and as safe - i will cover what i can - thanks - or cover the Cells once in the blocks so not to worry as much -

[shirley_hkg]

i have no help here - its me and this site - who ever helps me here - i will have someone helping me but she knows less than i do phyiscal and company help

but i have to rely on you BM - Shirley- who ever here can also -

Buy a few 3 or 5 amp fuses with wire ends.

Tap it to connection you are gonna do.

If you got spark or blown fuse, it is a wrong connection then. Otherwise, it is OK to do the connection.

[expresso]

Its why I keep telling him to learn why so HE knows its wrong, and not try and copy things.

He plays audio stuffs . I thought he is playing Dynaco tube amp like I do.

The picture on the top of this page is damm right . Enlarge the photo and you can see the +/- . Follow it.

Yes thats the one i will follow - at least its correct and thats it - this is not my field - i look at this way - i was going to buy the ready made pack anyway - so if i did that
i wouldnt have to know anything other than plug it in -

now i will do it that way also - follow the picture - with your help to connect the BMS - balance wires etc, - and thats it - i am not looking to build packs other than this one at the moment -

i agree - its good to know why it works this way - but dosnt look like i am going to be an electrician anytime soon - i am ok with just following what is already known to work and be correct -

[expresso]

i have no help here - its me and this site - who ever helps me here - i will have someone helping me but she knows less than i do phyiscal and company help

but i have to rely on you BM - Shirley- who ever here can also -

Buy a few 3 or 5 amp fuses with wire ends.

Tap it to connection you are gonna do.

If you got spark or blown fuse, it is a wrong connection then. Otherwise, it is OK to do the connection.

i be fine - with the picture - i do it same way and thats it - i have volt meter - so i can check it at the end to make sure its showing 26V etc, -

[Burgerman]

These are the very small 150A fuses (also in 40, 60, 80, 100, 125 etc) that I ue on charge leads, and also on battery looms on powerchairs.

They can be bolted. 5mm hole. But they need drilling slightly in most cases to 6mm. Takes a second to do. Why use these small ones? Because its also extremely easy to solder them. And because they fit into a bit of heat shrink in say a charge loom, and take up little space.

These are 150A ones:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... E&_sacat=0

[expresso]

So many types - do you use them bare that way or in a fuse holder ?

i just got the other fuses in - AGU model with holder - 60 amp http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P0 ... ge_o02_s00


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002U ... ailpages00


i am done with buying fuses - too many to choose from - first i got the other fuse holder with buss fuses - turns out to be a bit larger than i expected - and i have to cut and solder that wire - if i use that one - its a strong holder - but fuse is big and hard to install or remove if needed


so i went and got the this AGU model to give me another option - which may be easier for me - as long as it works - thats fine with me - -

[Burgerman]

Solder in cables, bolt on to battery. No holders. Don't like or trust screw connectors.

[expresso]

Ok i see how it can be useful that way - you can solder one end to the cable and screw it down on the battery end ? that can work - but in the event you need to change the fuse for some reason - then have to de solder it from the cable -

thats fine if you are able to work in that fashion - i figure a fuse holder is easiest in many cases - once installed - thats it - easy to replace fuses without uninstalling the holder -

but given the odds of blown fuses if done right - may not matter either way - i may just order a couple to keep around - seems i became a collector of fuses lately - :

i am still waiting on my Crimper i ordered before xmas - the USPS service really sucks here - they keep saying they tried to deliver it - but never did - 3 calls so far - supposedly tomorrow - i need that to make a cable for the ADD on once i get it

i have all the items needed to solder - wires - heat shrink - etc, - connectors - SB50 - just the crimper is missing -

[expresso]

Solder in cables, bolt on to battery. No holders. Don't like or trust screw connectors.

One more time - about the size of the fuses - What size is good to get which is not overly too high but more than enough -

i keep reading about 40A at first i though that was fine - then i see 60 A or 70 A can be used etc, -

i am never sure what size fuse to get - at the moment - i have a bag of 25A bus - and 30A bus - which i have 30A on the charging cable i use on my chair now - both chairs have built in with fuse holders - so i can just change it out if needed

i know it depends on the wire used also - AWG size - but lets assume - the wire AWG is going to be 8 AWG from now on - is 60 A fuse OK to purchase and use from now on ? before i purchase them - just to be future proof and not get so many different fuse sizes -

the fuses on the PL8 - the cables which for charging are 40A built it - so if 40 A is enough to charge at 40A - and never charge over 40A - its safe to say - you can use 40A fuse in your lead cables - and what ever else when building the whole chair
?

Lets say i did the whole chair with the headway cells - -one set of wires are going to connect to the chair connectors - which not sure what mines is - i know its a black Anderson - - and the only other cables needed are the charge cables going out to the chair frame to charge with - those charge cables are the only one that would need to be fused - so to protect when you charge ?

and thats it with fuses - ? the chair is fused how ever it is from the factory or theres a reset circuit breaker somewhere - i never had to use it - but the only cable needed to be fused is the charge cable if i am correct with my understanding

[expresso]

http://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems- ... =MIDI+FUSE

[expresso]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271428288415?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT

Finally got the crimper and its broken i believe - i got Oil all over my hands - over two weeks for this and now i will return it - for refund

8 ton is right - feels like 8 tons in my hands BM is there any other Reg. Crimper i can use - with no OIL inside etc, - what do you recommend that is Normal operation -
i guess manual ?


i wont be doing the crimping either way but - i rather not have something that has OIL in it - a manual version may be better for me to keep - i may end up using this half dozen times in my life i think - only if and when i have to make a cable - i dont see myself making many -

any manual crimpers you can recommend that can get the job done - with SB50 ends 8 AWG wire i will be using - and i will solder it also after i crimp

[Burgerman]

Never saw any that were any use that were not hydraulic.

I also never saw any oil in 20 years! So yes broken.

[expresso]

Never saw any that were any use that were not hydraulic.

I also never saw any oil in 20 years! So yes broken.

ok i have to search amazon or go to Homedepot - i am end up with some basic generic crimper - and solder it after -

maybe something like this - and then solder also

http://www.amazon.com/Titan-11477-Ratch ... e+crimpers

[shirley_hkg]

4OA fuse with good contact, say bolt on type, for small add-on.

[expresso]

4OA fuse with good contact, say bolt on type, for small add-on.

i wasnt going to put anything on this ADD ON - the cable thats on my chair has a fuse already on it - 30A -

i cant get to that cable inside because my chair has to be taken apart - i was going to just plug this into that cable which has a fuse on it already

i have to make a cable first to connect the pack to the chair - about 2 foot long

looking for a crimper now - and i think this may be best bet for me - easier to do http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003X5 ... 844CYEQXJ3

what do you think ?


you are saying i need to add another fuse on the ADD ON Pos cable also ?

[Scollard]

i wasnt going to put anything on this ADD ON - the cable thats on my chair has a fuse already on it - 30A -

i cant get to that cable inside because my chair has to be taken apart - i was going to just plug this into that cable which has a fuse on it already

i have to make a cable first to connect the pack to the chair - about 2 foot long

looking for a crimper now - and i think this may be best bet for me - easier to do http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003X5 ... 844CYEQXJ3

what do you think ?


you are saying i need to add another fuse on the ADD ON Pos cable also ?

That crimper is for much larger wire than what you would use. And if you were going to crimp wire that large you should be using a hydraulic crimper. The first crimper you referenced looked good. Although you might want to look for one that can crimp 8 AWG. I don't think you would be using larger than 8 at any time. Although you can probably get away with 10 AWG for all your needs but I would keep it under 6 feet.

[expresso]

ok thanks -


This one looks to be decent and may be better now that i think about it -

would this work - i have 8AWG wire and the SB50 connectors i want to make -

http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Crimp-Tool-No ... op?ie=UTF8


this is even cheaper in price - would this one work fine - ?

http://www.delcity.net/store/Economical ... HwodnOALVg

[Burgerman]

I think that 10 sq mm or 7 gauge is what most are using when done properly. The cables on our chairs as they arrive from the manufacturers are way too small.

[flagman1776]

It's all marked up.

Balance leads are screwed on as numbered ; 01 ---- 08 .

BMS has only =/- for battery terminals.

Very nicely done Shirley. Oh, the picture didn't come through!
I take it balance wire 01 goes on the POSITIVE.

[Scollard]

Ok Expresso, it's time to start making that battery. I will take you through the process step by step and hopefully I will successfully explain to you all about parallel and serial connections and where to hook up the BMS wires and other connectors.

Since you have 8 cells already I suggest beginning with making a 2p4s 12V pack and then you can build onto it when the next 8 cells arrive.

If this sounds good, let me know, and I will start.

Cheers

[expresso]

Hi - I cant just yet - first i have the other 8 Cells on the way - they are shipped - so i might as well wait for them - i think by next week -

but also - i want to do something first before i start this - i want to check my other chair - pull the battery out - the tray slides out the back on that chair 646se - i want to remove one battery and use the orange blocks to make believe i am building a full pack for the whole chair

i will just put the Cells in the blocks - on the 4 corners only and tape the blocks together - as if i put 6 cells up and 6 across - i want to really double check that it will fit in the tray space - height - etc, depth - the space is very very tight on top -

since i will have all the loose blocks and cells - i can check that before i start the ADD On pack - this way - i can know for sure if i wanted to do the whole chair one day - it would fit - i dont want to find out after i buy 72 cells that there may be a issue - too late then -

i know BM says it will fit and others say the same thing etc, - i have 24 size batteries - but my chair has tilt and seat lift etc, - when i look at the battery box tray etc, - its very hard to slide it back in the chair - the top is right there touching the frame etc, - it has a divider and then all the wires etc, -

unless this fits in the same battery try i have - and i can make it fit - i cant do the whole chair - or unless i can do it with out the battery tray in place - if that may help - i would still have to lay a bottom in there - either way - i want to check that first - since i will have the cells and blocks loose -

and also have to work with my helper - so its also up to when shes free - my friend is the one who will be taking them out etc, and helping me with the ADD on also - once i get the cells - i will start soon after - in the meantime i am absorbing as much as i can from everyones help here - and trying to get the tools needed still - i got a little set back with this crimper i have to return - so now i have to find a simple crimper - that works -

i may just take a Anderson connector with me to the hardware store and try to find one

[Scollard]

i may just take a Anderson connector with me to the hardware store and try to find one

To crimp Anderson Connectors you need a Hydraulic Crimper like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Hydraulic-Crimper ... B00KS5DY14

This will do 12 AWG up to 2/0 AWG.

To crimp balance wires you need one similar to the ratcheting crimper that goes from 10 AWG to 22 AWG that we talked about previously.

You just need to get started on this build. Too much talking. The project that never gets started will never be finished. You don't need a crimper to assemble the battery. Just a soft blow hammer and a hex key.

As for fitting a test battery to see if they fit, I would make a simulated battery out of cardboard or styrofoam that is the size of a 6x6 cell pack. With only 16 cells I don't know if you have enough to simulate a 6x6 pack.

[expresso]

I have to return the one i just received - i got that crimper and i think its defective - when i turned the knob on the side and used the handle - nothing happened and alot of Oil spilled out all over me - so i dont like it and have to return it

no other crimper can work besides this type ? i will solder it also - - i have no need for this type of crimper to be honest other than to make a few cables - if i can do with a more easier manual kind that dosnt feel like 8 tons when you hold it -

i rather do that instead - - in testing the battery box - i will use only 4 Cells really - just the corners - but i will tape the orange blocks as if i were using 36 cells - like a hollow battery - so i can get a visual - i wont lock them together because you never take them apart after - i would end up breaking them -

the crimper is needed for later on - i know that but since i have to wait for the rest of the parts - and my helper - i am trying to get the tools i need for later on now in the meantime -

[expresso]

http://www.delcity.net/store/Economical ... ol/p_10473


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MVE ... _pC_nS_ttl


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0151K ... _pC_nS_ttl


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002K ... _pC_nS_ttl


any one of these should work ? out of these 4 - which would be best - and if i can get more uses out of it - even better - if it crimps - strips wires etc, - i may or may not need to do that - the Balance cables are all made already -

i just need to make a cable once the pack is done - about maybe 2 foot - to connect to my chair - thats why i go the wires - SB50 etc, - solder etc - i figure its something to do and practice doing it - i should have to just bought one made already and not need all the stuff - but i already got everything i need for it - just crimper is left - -