You can now buy these chairs

[Tomkilmore]

Hi, my name is Tom Kilmore, I have been a member of this forum for 7 years and have watched with great interest as John (BM) has modified his chairs to great benefit over the years. I myself am not disabled but my wife is a C5/6 complete tetraplegic and has been a power-chair user for over 20 years. Hayley had her RTA in 1990 and we met in 2003, we have had 4 children since and not looked back, building our own specially adapted house and living life as fully as possible.

After 10 years looking after the family I returned to work last year as a maintenance engineer, but quickly realised I no longer enjoyed it.
I have realised I have a passion for powered wheelchairs and cannot believe how little the industry has progressed over the last 10 years, it’s almost stationary with regard to chassis development! This made me think, could I build power-chairs to make a living? I am a ‘time served’ mechanical engineer with all the qualifications to suit, so it seems like a viable/logical move. I would be able to work from my purpose built workshop at the side of my house and be there for my wife and kids if they need me, whilst doing a job that is rewarding and makes a difference to people’s lives.

I really enjoyed building Hayley's clone chair, and have built her many add-ons over the years including baby seats, phone holders, meal trays, iPad holders and the like. I have now built another one of the modified chairs using top quality new parts and consumables. My initial thought was to have this as a spare for H, but I have one of everything as a spare and know the chair inside out, so it is not necessary, therefore this amazing wheelchair is for sale.

I have decided to start a company and sell it with a view to building more and selling them. I am aware that others have tried to do this, and I have seen some of their work, which, can only be described sub-standard and shoddy to say the least.

I am certainly a profit making business, as I will need to make a living but do believe in fair pricing. I plan on selling the massively modified f55’s to start with as it would be wrong to ignore all of his/the forums research and findings, plus my own knowledge of the chair, then further down the line design a new frame/chair using the same principles, including lithium etc., (including all the complications of controllers and charging). Also, I would like to offer my services for add ons and improvements/modifications to existing chairs( location dependant obviously). I cut my teeth working on packaging and bottling machines so I am an all round engineer not just a ‘wheelchair technician’ who doesn’t understand or use basic engineering principles. I also like to think I have a similar work ethic to BM, maybe not quite so OCD though I am aware that all chairs should to be built to individual requirements but believe the basis of these chairs can be made to suit a lot of people, for example making the chassis slightly longer or moving motor mounts to make less tippy and more stable if required. This chair has the motor mounts moved slightly rearward and longer anti tips, and is 99% complete, It is however completely up to you how you want your chair! It will have best quality marine lead batteries (oddessey) and 120amp r-net controller and pod with colour led display, lights, indicators etc.

So there you have it, you can now buy a BRAND NEW massively modified f55 in the uk (or abroad if you are happy with limited support) built by a uk engineer. Price £6499. With 1 Year parts and labour warranty. I know in depth the cost of the parts alone and so know this is a fair price for the work that goes into it. Remember this is a bespoke chair, built by hand, my hands.The first chair is available now as an ‘off the shelf’ purchase with full spec on request. If you want one built to your specific requirements, waiting time will currently be 3-4 weeks, if my workload increases, this will be longer. For full details please email me at tkilmore@sky.com

Please note I have no affiliation with BM, these chairs are built by me and will be sold solely through my company. Lots more pictures and specification on request.

[Irving]

Tom,

The best of luck in this. Personally I'd like to think this would be a not-for-profit venture (that's not to say you shouldn't make a living from it) but that profits should be limited and reinvested.

Can I suggest you engage a good legal person to draft a product/user liability contract as you need to make it clear these are not certified as medical aids, e.g. wheelchairs but personal mobility devices and its the buyers responsibility to validate suitability for their needs. I know that sounds OTT but there's a big difference building for yourself/your wife and building commercially for someone else and I'd hate to see you at the wrong end of a liability dispute when someone has a accident in a chair you built.

[Tomkilmore]

Thanks for the advice Irving, I have run through it with legal professionals etc and as long as the contract is sound and understood and my chair is a solid product built to the best of my ability there should be no problems. I don't want red tape to get in the way of what I would like to achieve, It would be so easy to get put off, so i'm going for it with a 'can do' attitude. If I can make a living and better someone's life then it's all good and worth all the setting up.

Tomk

[rover220]

unfortunatley without having it tested to industry standards and having much red tape attached you are leaving yourself wide open to any liability claims, whether its a quality build or not.

[rover220]

id also lose the rnet lcd and fit the standard led version, little bit smaller and looks alot better

[Irving]

unfortunatley without having it tested to industry standards and having much red tape attached you are leaving yourself wide open to any liability claims, whether its a quality build or not.

Not strictly true. For Class 2 level certification, non-medical device, you can apply for a CE mark self-certified. You do need to show traceability of parts, robustness of manufacture (so proper drawings, not designing on the fly) and evidence of design and testing, including formal reviews and sign-offs. Admittedly that's tricky for a 1 man operation but could be achieved with external support.

[expresso]

very nice - hope it works out- this could be the start of something great for all of us

you need to get rid of the LEAD or offer options instead maybe ? we are all trying to get off the LEAD - i know i am and finally in the process now

[ex-Gooserider]

DELIGHTED to see this! I have long thought there would be a business opportunity here given the huge number of 'can you make me one' requests that show up here, even w/ BM constantly saying that he is building just for himself...

Will be watching to see how it goes...

ex-Gooserider

[Tomkilmore]

Thanks for your support, I appriciate it I would love to get off lead as soon as possible but have been concentrating getting the standard chair right first, soon I can start reading all your threads on lithium and deciding which way to go with it, hopefully you won't mind if i pick your brains a little!

Regards

Tomk

[Burgerman]

download/file.php?id=4301&mode=view

Add Approx 1.2K to the price for 120Ah of lithium.
Add cost of power supply and PL8 plus charge loom, 250?
Less cost of 2x Odyssey PC 1500, 440?
Less cost of lead brick charger, 100?

Difference is that instead of getting 40Ah from the 68Ah lead, you get all 120Ah for 300% range and a very much longer service life. And saving 50lb. For 1k difference. Lead makes no sense.

You gain:
fast charge capability
car charge capability
Less weight
less worry about making it home which frees you mentally
less cost long term. Many users kill a set of £440 batteries every year...

[Mark]

I wish you success and think it is a shame that the world we now live in inhibits and seems to be against any sort of enterprise unless it is done on a larger scale and to "certified" standards. Whatever happened to good design and good engineering practice? I certainly don't see it coming from many established w/c suppliers.

Also remember that safety is always compromised by the weakest link. I recently had to be transported in a wheelchair-carrying minibus and there was all the checking that my wheelchair had the "approved" logos for the tie-down points. However, since the person fixing the straps didn't know how to do the job properly it didn't make any difference except the crew thought they had "ticked all the right boxes". I was extremely uncomfortable and in pain and just wanted to get home as fast as possible so I kept my mouth shut and decided to accept the risk during the 1/2 mile journey. I see crazy examples like this often. Common sense and knowledge seems to be being replaced by rules, regulations, and box ticking without anyone thinking of what they are trying to safeguard against.

My personal view is that you can get too hung-up on liability issues. What matters most is that you have the knowledge, skill etc. to do the job right.

There may be a lot less perceived risk in selling sub-assemblies and turned parts for those of us who don't have a lathe in our bedrooms. In fact the modified F55 chassis and battery box springs to mind, plus all the threaded rods.

Anyway, I wish you success.

[Tomkilmore]

So many valid points there Mark, Hayley and I see it all the time. Box ticking without common sense, drives you mad! But unfortunately it is the world we live in and as a business I have to go some way to meeting all the criteria and ticking all the boxes. I'm more concerned with a quality chair, that does what other chairs can't do...and earning a living.
I can see all the benefits of lithium BM and it's a no brainer to go there, but to offer it commercially is going to be time consuming and risky, but I'm hoping to be able to do just that....eventually, at least when I have, people who have bought the chair already can upgrade to it.
I must add, the r-net 120 combined with lead isn't as bad as I had thought it might be, initial testing shows good range on paths round town and lots of torque with those big tyres on the local park grass. I weigh 14.5 stone so not small but not large. Funny how all the manufacturers never mention terrain or user weight when quoting their range! Obviously the chairs performance will be improved when on lithium.
With regard to sub assemblies, If any one has something that they would like, give me a pm and i'll see what I can do. Please bear in mind I have to make a profit on the items I make, and It has been a massive outlay for all my tools, equipment and workshop, that I have to recuperate over time. Also if there is anything you have in mind that has not been mentioned, don't be afraid to pm/email me (tkilmore@sky.com), Such as brackets for attaching bike trailers, or Ipad stands etc. I do follow the KISS principle "keep it simple and straightforward" , don't expect elaborate intricate solutions, but well made robust, stainless or aluminium parts

Tomk

[Tomkilmore]

Just to let you guys know i've had a good level of interest but no firm orders as yet, so it's time to get the chair out there. I am considering advertising in various places, do you have any suggestions?
Regards
TomK

[Mark]

I would be very wary of any advertising that isn't free. It is very difficult to find places that are sufficiently targeted to be cost effective.

I have written books on advertising (cheque books) and the difficulty was always finding advertising that covered it's costs and was repeatable. It is easy to spend money on advertising; it is very difficult to find advertising that works.

The alternative free methods of publicity are going to be better for you:

Get interviewed on your local radio station.
Write articles for magazines and local papers.
Make You-Tube videos of your powerchairs in action and keep adding to them.
Have all your product details on an easy to read and navigate web site - by all means have links to videos on You-Tube but don't have embedded videos or music that starts as soon as someone tries to access your site, or have a site that is slow to load.
Make sure your contact details are displayed on your show chair and get out and about on it, particularly at disability events/exhibitions, both local and national.
There are loads of possibilities for free publicity and that will get you noticed more than advertising.

[Sully]

Why did you not mention a demonstration video on You Tube and your own Web site, with your own selling points along with the proper non medical use warnings ???? If you use other mediums, which I certainly would, just be prepared to utter the proper disclaimers.

While in this current world attitude "You can sue anybody for anything at any time", I believe with a fairly good personal liability insurance policy for the work you contract to do for advised people. Open Public fore warnings would seem to protect you from personal destruction by nefarious characters. But that is just my opinion.

Do not expect that any herd of turtles will bang your door down tomorrow, it is extremely hard to get a start with any new product, and it is not cheap. However, if you become known as a producer of a good product, customers will certainly come forward. Secrets and misinformation and poor workmanship is what will get you into trouble. You will have to figure these costs into your finished product. Every little thing will add some cost, to the end product. This is why manufacturers cut such minimal cost items every 1 BP or 1 US dollar ends up saving $3 or even more at the retail, customer level.

If you follow the BM 1 model and John's suggestion on how to convert that model from Lead to Lithium. Selling one battery power system or the other seems to be a simple matter. Supplying a charging system is another issue. I would not advise supplying this item but make some very firm suggestions for the customer to follow. BUT, You can really offer one or the other, just with the necessary price difference.

I really hope the absolute best for your possible venture. Keep in touch with us here, maybe we can figure a way to peddle your chair on this side of the big pond as well.

[Burgerman]

Running any kind of business isnt easy.

[Sully]

Sorry Mark you did advise him to make a You Tube video, but with that pointing the way to a Web Site with good contact information might be added.

[Burgerman]

I get about 3 requests a month to build one of my chairs by mail. And I refuse.

But remember this site gets very targeted traffic, has 800 unique ip adress new visitors every day, about 3k page views, and hundreds of photos online and a long history, as well as the fact that I am well known...

So realistically you will need 25,000 unique visitors or 75k page views to a site to get 3 enquiries a month if the same holds true. But I am not trying to sell. Thats a lot. So some advertising with maybe adsense or whatever is going to be needed.

[ex-Gooserider]

Well if BM was to forward those three inquiries a month to Tom, without recommendation beyond 'this guy says he will build one' then that is not a bad start...

Of course he could also try posting adds over on Junky wheelchair

Seriously if I was looking at advertising tactics, I'd try to be posting on any disability related sites I could find, like CareCure or Aparalyzed, and so on... If I wanted to try paid advertising, then I'd look at the wheeler publications like New Mobility where at least you have some expectation that the average reader might need the product...
(note, US bias, probably better equivalents in the UK...)

ex-Gooserider

[Sully]

Goose, I didn't advise that advertising route, because those magazines are directed towards people who require prescription or medical use chairs. Probably not the best of ideas. However, wheelchair soccer mags. or the like perhaps better. The AARP magazine, would be a great place, many more private financed buyers.

[ex-Gooserider]

Goose, I didn't advise that advertising route, because those magazines are directed towards people who require prescription or medical use chairs. Probably not the best of ideas. However, wheelchair soccer mags. or the like perhaps better. The AARP magazine, would be a great place, many more private financed buyers.

Could be, though I see heavy advertising for the Frypan chair in New Mobility, along with it's 'this is not a medical device' disclaimer...

ex-Gooserider

[Tomkilmore]

Many thanks for all the replies, some good food for thought, I don't seem to be able to get a minute since putting it out there that i'm going to build the chairs, I do love it though What on earth is a 'frypan' chair goose?

[Tomkilmore]

ahh the whill chair, not considered to be a medical device, stretching the truth a tad i'd say

[MenCallMeGimpy]

ahh the whill chair, not considered to be a medical device, stretching the truth a tad i'd say

That's the one. I call it a "Star Trek prop:" cool and futuristic at first sight, but pretty half-baked when you peel back the shiny plastic.

[Burgerman]

I dont even think it looks cool. More like a kitchen appliance.

[Tomkilmore]

I agree, it looks bloody awful, still, beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say, even if that holder is a trekky fan !

[Tomkilmore]

OMG!!!

Just received this from someone who has seen the chair for sale.

'do you not think that 8 mph on a wheelchair is too fast, no invalid could control it even on a road..'

Either they are trolling or completely ignorant/stupid.

[Burgerman]

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3-lithium-fast-powerchair.htm

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-construction/15mph.mp4

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-construction/1-RC-safe-braking-test.mp4

Send them these links and tell them to get a life.

[MenCallMeGimpy]

I agree, it looks bloody awful, still, beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say, even if that holder is a trekky fan !

Guilty as charged. I was just indulging my Captain Pike fantasy. Hey, there are so few wheelchair-bound role models, you have to take your heroes where you find them.

[MenCallMeGimpy]

'do you not think that 8 mph on a wheelchair is too fast, no invalid could control it even on a road..'

The use of the word "invalid" tells me everything I need to know about this loser. Who the hell is he/she to say who is or isn't a valid human being? Arsehole.