PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

[steves1977uk]

It's 42p per cell + one buss bar according to XE conversion, unless I read it wrong! http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/con ... JPY&To=GBP

Steve

[Burgerman]

Thats because they are old and unknown quantity. If you have a PL8 and can test them well, that's still worth a go!

[shirley_hkg]

http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/con ... GBP&To=CNY

No . It should be Chinese Yen .

This is the best cell I bought so far , regarding claimed capacity to that I actually can draw from it , at least 105%.

[Burgerman]

Even more reason to think those are actually made by headway. I get 105% from the very suspiciously similar looking cells... If discharged down to 2.5V at a sensible rate.

[expresso]

so 8 cells is about 42GBP or just over a fiver each. That's pretty good. So how do you order them, there doesn't appear to be a 'buy' button..

5 dollars each Cell ? or each 8 Cells are 5 dollars ? - for that price - maybe i should get some and build a 45ah ADD ON with these cells ? Can the same buss bars be used that we use on the normal headway cells for EV - do you know ?

i can figure out how to read that page either - using firefox here

[Burgerman]

At that price I am going to buy 48v 500A and build an off grid solar storage pack.

[steves1977uk]

http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=1&From=GBP&To=CNY

No . It should be Chinese Yen .

This is the best cell I bought so far , regarding claimed capacity to that I actually can draw from it , at least 105%.

Thanks for correcting me shirley I wasn't sure which Yen you used

Steve

[expresso]

what is the price for each cell in US dollars ?

[Burgerman]

I noticed this charger when looking around.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/B6AC-80W-6A-Mul ... 2166335545
While I agree it does not charge very fast, a couple of these might make a good travel charger, as they have built in AC power supplies.

I searched the forum, and I see no articles pro or con. Price is good. Any thoughts if it worth it?

Its 80 watts max. So it can charge at about 2.5 to 2.7A. And we don't know how good/bad its firmware is, so may or not be any good. Hard to know. It may for eg be capacity or time limited? Lets say you fitted a 150Ah batt to your scooter. And it was not capacity limited. It may only have 100mA balance capability, so could take a day or so to balance, and at 2.5A charge will take 10 hours to replace 25Ah... Out of your 150. Or 60 hours to do a full charge, plus balance time at the end. Or 2 days and a half plus balance.

And I just noticed it can only do 6s. So you would need 2...

[shirley_hkg]

http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/con ... USD&To=CNY

That will be $7.8 US a cell of 15AH .

[Burgerman]

1008 uk pounds builds me a 315Ah 24V lithium solar backup.

Thats an 8 kwh off grid battery for 1k. It would replace 500Ah lead setup, for less cost, 10 times the lifespan, and more importantly its more efficient. So instead of replacing say 300Ah with 400Ah as you do with lead. You would replace 300 with 310Ah. Thats the same as having 30% more solar panels. I am very tempted...

[expresso]

http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=1&From=USD&To=CNY

That will be $7.8 US a cell of 15AH .

about 8 dollars each the plus shipping -

about 200 dollars for a 45ah ADD On - plus shipping

do the orange blocks used for the headway cells - would they work also the same way - would they fit ?

which part of that page do i need to click to order 24 of them for this pack ? its confusing to me in IE translated - not sure if i will do it correct -

it looks like they have lock washers on them also already -

or maybe i should buy another 56 to make another 105ah pack for my future chair - but wont be for a year at least -

is it worth it to buy and hold for a year before using them ? the ADD ON i can use or save for a friend or give him my 36ah and i keep the 45ah -

less than half price of the Headway from EV

[Burgerman]

These addons are getting heavier! Better to just do a battery for the chair. I wouldnt buy a battery thats already old, and keep it another year. Batteries age, even life ones.

[expresso]

the ADD On is not much heavier really - 36ah vs 45Ah ADD ON - same amount of Cells - just using 15ah instead of 12ah cells -

3 rows of 12ah - i have now - 36ah - works fine - but if i had to make another one for what ever reason - or if my friend really wants to do it one day - i would suggest using the 15ah cells - same 3 rows of cells but get 45ah out of it -
every little bit helps - now anything over 3 rows - would be too large then -

in my case the extra weight would be helpful also to keep more traction on the rear tires - for the cost of these cells - i was thinking for my friend - but knowing him - by the time he gets around to doing anything - would be more than a year for him at his pace . -

one of those you CANT HELP -

But if they last 10 years or so - whats one year sitting around - unless of course they are already 9 years OLD - then your screwed

[Irving]

Todays rate 1 cell is 6GBP (48.23 per 8) plus shipping. (my prev price of 5gbp was in error)

It might be worth considering a group buy if enough of us in UK are interested; could even reduce price further. I'm in for at least 40 cells (8S5P = 24v 75Ah) and more if I go down the solar backup route as well. We could get a couple of communal spare packs in case of duff cells.

I'm just looking into shipping costs now..

@Shirley_hkg would you be willing to help negotiate a better price for bulk purchase?

[Gnomatic]

As far as the quality of these cells go, are these considered on par Heafways?

[Burgerman]

Never tested one. But they appear the same as headway. However all cells age. And resistance increases. These are used and we dont know how old. So if buying a lot I would first buy half a dozen and test well.

[Irving]

Shipping isn't so simple... a few quick quotes online of the ilk of UPS (2 - 5 biz days) threw up prices of ~170GBP for 40cells (20kg 34x22x19cm) making the total cost ex-vat & duty of 10.3GBP per cell - still cheaper than EVAssemble though.

It will be cheaper to use an independent logistics company who handle LCL (Less than Container Load) directly - I've put a couple of feelers out but rough guidelines are LCL Sea freight will be cheapest @ ~350GBP per cubic metre or part thereof delivered to my location (e.g. 496 cells - 2 x 168 + 4 x 40 = 0.2cu m) but will take 20 - 30 days. But the per cell uplift is <0.7GBP on 500 cells and gets even better for larger shipments. Also a logistics company will be less stroppy about differences between Li-Ion and LiFePO4.

Import duty is 2.7% and I doubt we'll get away without it on large shipment = 0.16GBP per cell. VAT might be possible to avoid as per BM's experience but if not its VAT on cell price + duty + shipping, e.g. (496/8 * 48.23 * 1.027 + 350) * 1.2 / 496 = 8.27GBP/cell

Todays rate 1 cell is 6GBP (48.23 per 8) plus shipping. (my prev price of 5gbp was in error)

It might be worth considering a group buy if enough of us in UK are interested; could even reduce price further. I'm in for at least 40 cells (8S5P = 24v 75Ah) and more if I go down the solar backup route as well. We could get a couple of communal spare packs in case of duff cells.

I'm just looking into shipping costs now..

@Shirley_hkg would you be willing to help negotiate a better price for bulk purchase?

[Irving]

Never tested one. But they appear the same as headway. However all cells age. And resistance increases. These are used and we dont know how old. So if buying a lot I would first buy half a dozen and test well.

Another, more expensive, supplier of the same cells does show a cell on impedance test at 3mOhm - how much to rely on that though...

[Burgerman]

They may well be 3mOhm new. But we dont know the history, the age, the cycles, or if they were allowed to go too low, or high.

[expresso]

They may well be 3mOhm new. But we dont know the history, the age, the cycles, or if they were allowed to go too low, or high.

yes thats right - who knows what happened to them - not worth getting for a whole chair pack - maybe a ADD ON may be worth a try but not the whole chair - with my luck - most could have been discharged too low and useful - not worth the effort making it and then having problems later on

for a ADD ON - thats easier to deal with if anything shows up down the road -

best to get new ones for a critical project - if its just for fun or something not too important - could be worth trying for the cost -

45ah ADD ON - would cost about 200 US i think - thats worth it and hope it works - good way for any chair user to test the waters for a ADD ON - most will be more than happy with the range it offers with new set of MK Gel -

[Irving]

Yet Shirley_HKg has built some serious packs with them...

[Irving]

so, no interest in group buy?

[expresso]

how would a group buy even work ?

lets say - i take 24 of those Cells - to make a 45ah pack - i am in the US - NYC - how would i get them ? how would paying work - shipping etc,

unless everyone is in the same state close to each other - are they the same size as the 15ah headways - would i be able to use the same orange blocks ?

[Gnomatic]

so, no interest in group buy?

so, no interest in group buy?

For that price I'd be interested in some. Not for my chair but other projects

[Irving]

how would a group buy even work ?

lets say - i take 24 of those Cells - to make a 45ah pack - i am in the US - NYC - how would i get them ? how would paying work - shipping etc,

unless everyone is in the same state close to each other - are they the same size as the 15ah headways - would i be able to use the same orange blocks ?

You/someone would need to organize shipping to, then subsequently, across the US. I would do same for UK. Assumption is we collectively get a better price on a large single order, maybe shipped to hong kong first.

They are physically identical to the Headway 15Ah 40152 cells (40mm dia, 152mm long), possibly out of the same factory just different branding.

I've been following the paper trail on these batteries and have unearthed the following info:

LiFeBATT UK (incorporated 2008) was the UK distributor for LiFeBATT Production Inc., a US company, not to be confused with LiFeBat a UK importer of Chinese cells. Here is an independent test report on the LiFeBATT cells which suggests they are pretty good. The UK company had a Taiwanese director on the board. Ian Goodman, the UK owner/director, has a hobby creating custom electric 'chopper' motorbikes. From 2008 on they were ramping up the supply of packaged e-bike packs, including a 12v/30Ah unit which is what these appear to be. The original LiFeBATT cells were studded and proved to be mechanically weak so in 2008/9 they switched to the 'female' tapped version identical to Headway/PSI/BMI cells. LiFeBATT claim to manufacture battery packs and do R&D in the US, though the batteries themselves are manufactured in Taiwan. From threads on various EV forums it would appear there is photographic evidence (all links are dead though) that LiFeBATT, Headway and PSI cells all come from the same Taiwanese manufacturing plant. There was a lot of negativity in the EV self-build world about support and warranty from LiFeBATT USA though the cells were well thought of and the UK outfit was deemed OK.

In 2011 it would seem that LiFeBATT UK lost the UK distribution rights (and use of the name). The rights initially went to Toyota Tsusho Europe S.A based in Dusseldorf (I'm guessing politics and scale played a part) though the EU rights now appear to sit with LiFeBATT AB) From Jan 2012 LiFeBATT UK started trading as Goodwolfe - UK owners/directors, the Goodmans and another family, the Wolfes were original investors in LiFeBATT- and formally changed the company name in Feb 2013. It looks like they still had access to the LiFeBATT cells but now used their own branding so those packs probably can't be more than 4.5y old. Indeed, looking at their accounts it would seems they did serious business during 2013/2014 so my guess is they were probably assembled mid to late 2013.

Goodwolfe was bought out in 2014, by Vayon Holdings, was fully incorporated by late 2015 and its name changed to Vayon Energy Storage, a UK company providing consultancy and design services on Lithium energy storage primarily for the EV market. As previously mentioned they don't sell component parts.

[Burgerman]

Interesting pdf.

[expresso]

Irving - its a good idea - if it worked as planned - i dont know anyone here who would want some and havnt a clue how to get it going from there to hear - for me - i can see a big h eadache - i would take some Cells - try out a 45ah pack for another ADD ON - gives me something to do in the winter

it would be good if you find a few people there in the UK and do it - have it shipped to one person and then figure out how to get them to the rest -

has Shirley ever shipped the pack out to one of the other users here - he build a 190ah pack for someone and then cant find anyone to ship it to him - Nadol i believe

thats a problem

[Burgerman]

Nandol. Has been very quiet lately, since being ill in south America.

[Gnomatic]

has Shirley ever shipped the pack out to one of the other users here - he build a 190ah pack for someone and then cant find anyone to ship it to him - Nadol i believe

thats a problem

190ah pack, was that for a custom chair?