Quickie 222 Se - Squeaks !!!

[Burgerman]

A 14.4v (28.8v) charger that has a float function such as the Soneil one you linked to, WILL CHARGE a MK gel. But it will shorten its service life considerably, by maybe 30 percent or more. Because the volts are too high, and it cuts off too early. It will also never fully charge, at least at the green light. It will however finish the charge "eventually" AFTER this. But will do so slowly, on its long term storage float. Maybe another 4 to 8 hours or more. This is EXACTLY what almost every mobility charger does.

Why? Nobody cares about the shortened service life. Other than the end user who doesent know its happening. And it gives the "green" light faster! This means the user is happy. Chair recieves 95 percent of charge fast. That last 5 percent that it doesent get, would take many extra hours! But it makes the battery live a much longer time before needing replacement. A better speed solution is a much more powerful charger, heavier cables, and a true accurate matched charge curve. But that costs more.

The little hobby Hyperion does exactly what YOU program in. And is 20 amp output. And can run in a car, or at home. But it is plastic and toy like, requires extensive user knowledge and a seperate power supply. Either your car or a bench supply at home. But used correctly it can charge *anything* of any battery type, properly! And can also graph and measure and be controlled via a PC. Its not perfect but its as good as you can get regardless of price. Partly because I had a hand in making it do everything properly. They listened and adapted, over the last few years.

[expresso]

your right - cant really say with knowing all the specs of each charger - which its impossible to get unless you check it yourself -

what i did was email lester and i got a response - from what i understand in the response is thats it fine - but dosnt float or hold a charge once its done - i would have to shut it off and back on - if i understand it correctly -

here is what i got back in my email today -


Hello Claudio,

We partnered with MK battery 25+ years ago to develop the ideal charge algorithm for their then new gel batteries with the 1st generation of chair chargers. Your 18330 is the grandson of that first charger. If this charger did not fully charge the batteries as you say others claim, we would have been out of business years ago.

Let's do it this way. Exactly what problems are you having? Insufficient run time? Charge cycles longer than 10 hours? Short battery life?

My direct dial is 877 322 6779 extension 273, I talk a lot faster than I two-finger type.

Once the charger turns off, it stays off. There is no float or storage mode and it will need to be switched to "off" and back to "on" to initiate a new charge cycle. That or disconnect and reconnect the DC plug from the chair. It is safe to leave the charger connected and on after the green light goes to steady.

To test the charger we would need a voltmeter to monitor and track the live, on-charge voltage. A good set of gel batteries will rise to 28.0 to 28.6 volts. If you have a voltmeter and some time you can confirm this for yourself by tracking the on-charge voltage in 20 minute intervals up to the moment of turn off, no rocket science degree needed.

I hope to hear from you! Thank you.

George Chmielewski
Customer Support Manager
Lester Electrical
625 West A Street
Lincoln NE 68522
1 402 441 3720 ext. 273 direct
1 402 474 1769 fax
service@lesterelectrical.com

[Burgerman]

What he says is correct. Sort of. I have taken lester chargers apart, measured what they do.

They are old tech, dont really sense what the battery does accurately, and once the CC stage ends they just "time" a number of hours of cv stage. Then switch off. They do this because they cannot sense small currents accurately enough. So they kind of do 2 stages of a modern 3 stage chargers algo.

If the lester was sold to go with gel rather than generic or MK AGM batteries this is OK. Other than theres no float stage. So no use for anything other than cyclic use. And they are analog, meaning voltages are not programmed in, and are manually (mis)adjusted and can vary over time. So his advice about the volt meter is quite important.

I would still get rid, and find a more modern powerful more efficient digital 3 stage charger with a proper algo for MK gel if this is what you use. I also add that the float stage (missing on lester) is important because this actually tops up and completes the charge after it cuts off as well as just being used for long term storage.

Since it actually takes about 8 to 14 hours+ to FULLY charge and saturate a gel battery with a small charger. And about 2/3rds that time for an AGM battery. By fully I mean until the charge current drops to almost zero. This matters if you want to minimise sulphation and maximise service life.

To test, use an ACCUTATE digital volt meter on the mk gel batteries during charge. If they do not sit at 14.00 to 14.10v each (not more) for at least 5 hours or more at the end of the charge they are not fully charged. Longer is bad (grid corrosion) less is undercharged (sulphation).

[Burgerman]

Of course almost any charger will work, dont get too stressed about the details, I am really only talking about maximising battery capacity and service life.

[expresso]

Yeah - cant let it get to me with all these specs etc, - your right about wanting to max the battery life and get the best and most out of it - unless someone has your knowledge and tools etc, - its hard to get it right - i dont believe the vendors - or there techs, - they just repeat what they are told -

if i feel my batteries are loosing the power - and my distance is affected etc, - i just call the tech and put in for a new set - but on the other hand - if i had to pay myself - of course would be wise to learn and try to max, the life - if i listen them - they say let it run till its down low before charging - which is what we shouldnt do - they go by the cycles of charges - so each time i charge - they count it as a cycle - - everyone else who knows better says the same thing you say -

try not to run them dry before charging - try not to get to 50% if you can - in my case - when i do my 12 - 15 miles rides in the summer - i am sure they get down below 50% - once summer is over - which for me is now - too cold to take those trips - if i am lucky - i can get by maybe another summer with these batteries - if i do - i then let them go all winter also since i dont go far in the cold - and before the next summer - i get a new set - break them in - and be ready again -

thats how i normally avg with my older chair - now with this chair - cant say - i seem to run them harder lately - may need them sooner -

[Burgerman]

OK. Basically EVERY electrically powered vehicles weak point is its batteries. The more you know, the better you treat them, the better the batteries and charger the better the performance and life.

But ALL lead based batteries are frankly awful things. Go lithium. Look at it like this.

You can and should fit much more the Ah in the same space. So initially its not cheap. Install at least 1.4x to 1.6x as much Ah as you take out when you throw away the old lead batteries and replace with safe, much lighter LiFePO4 batteries.

Typically you will get 108Ah or more, where the 70Ah group 24s came out. DONT be tempted to put the same Ah back as you removed! This entirely defeats the object and most of the advantage of lithiums.

Each Ah of lithium, will carry you further. A 100Ah of LEAD will actually give a just a usable 50 to 60 real Ah at the rate we use them. This is due to both resistance and the peukert surface charge effect. So a lithium of the same capacity will take you nearly double the distance a lead battery will. But you can actually fit 108Ah where 70Ah, came out! Whoohoo. We then have about 3 times the real world usable range. IF we discharge both batteries fully.

But we cant use all this energy from lead, as at 100 percent discharge you would throw away your batteries every few months. Typically you would get just 10s of cycles only at this full discharge level. With LiFePO4 batteries we can discharge to 100 percent safely so win again. These give 1500 cycles at FULL DISCHARGE, or 2000+ at 80 percent. Or 4 to 5 times+ better than lead. And many more still at a lower discharge level.

Since the range is so huge, expect to only recharge every 3 or 4 days anyway, or have a really low daily discharge level. So 10 to 15 years is absolute minimum battery life down to 80 percent remaining battery capacity. But that 80 percent level is still more than double the range of a lead powered chair with brand new lead based batteries!

In other words it will go forever, better, faster charge, with more torque, and huge range and will be CHEAPER long term by a large amount.

In every other field, from cars to golf carts, to kids toys, laptop, hobby stuff, bycycles etc LEAD is dead. And has been for years. Only powerchairs persist. Because its cheap initially.

[expresso]

whow thats great - i am always interested in making my chair better - etc, - if i understand you correctly - your saying - when i need to change out my MK 24 battery on my new chair i am using now - i can just buy the other ones you mentioned and its a simple swap ? nothing else to do to the wheelchair ? everything would work with the electronics etc, ? for instance - if i get about 12 miles avg when i use it in the summer with the Mk i have now -

with the new ones you mentioned - i would be able to double that range ? or more each time i ride ? would my joystick battery meter work the same - ? meaning the green ligths - yellow and red - etc, - so i have some kind of indication when i need to recharge ?

how much would they cost ? and would i need a new charger to charge them ? - do you have a link to any sites that sell them - if cost is decent - i could always buy them for my chair i am using now - and when i need a new set of Mk - i can put them in my older chair instead -

i would have to talk my tech into doing it for me - because he wont be able to do that on the record - but hes cool - and i think he do it for me if i went down that road -

very good idea -

thanks -

[Burgerman]

If you replace your lead with 108Ah of lithium, you will get 3x the range, 10 times the battery life. But its not plug and play. Your battery meter will read nothing meaningful. You will need a balance charger, like the hyperion, as BMS systems suck. And you will need a custom build, and a custom charge loom, and so on. But again its what you know. Read up, understand this stuff and it can be done. EG start here: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/convert ... ithium.htm

And take a look at my lithium chair here: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3- ... rchair.htm

Its not plug and play. But if you can understand it, its all quite possible now. Theres a member of this forum that is in the process of doing this right now and has posted photos.

[expresso]

sounds promising - i really want a plug and play change - i like to read up on the links you sent - i cant do too much to my new chair - this would be something i can play around with my old chair - its not covered any more etc, -

if my new chair ever needed repairs and they see that i modified it - etc,- warranty may not cover it if its under warranty - and if its not - insurance may not either - they normally cover and replace what is broken with the same part - from the original order etc, -

but good to know it can be done - hopefully in the near future - it can be more plug and play versions ? wouldnt the controller from the chair have an affect on this ? i mean it has to give off the information to the system to charge etc, -

anyway - i read about it some and keep it on my mind - i love to see the pictures of others who are doing it -

my chair is from Sunrise - using pilot plus joystick controller box says Qtronix though i am correct - its on the bottom of the chair - but i am pretty sure its says that - its 100 amp -


another quick question - when you want to program your speed setting etc, - i notice when i ride and go around people on the sidewalk etc, - the chair tends to sligthly slow down when i go around them - i like to keep the speed the same - dont want it to slow down -

which setting is that - is that the turn increase - turn decrese etc, i am trying to find tune it and just go around people smootlhy with out slowin down -

believe it or not - i had to turn down acelleration to 35 - from the factory 70 - and i am still lifting the wheels easily as i ride over curbs bumps - etc, - -

[expresso]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-100ah-Lithium ... 35c020d97f

i just found these- - are they the ones you are talking about ? if so - and these are all you need - price isnt too bad - just in batteries - i understand you need a new charger specific to them -

but if you need two sets of these 4 - then inital cost would be much higher to get started - but pay off in the long run for sure - if it were plug and plug - would be great - i would do it -

[Fulliautomatix]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-100ah-Lithium-LiFePO4-battery-Cells-/230856644991?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item35c020d97f

The C rate is not high enough. Sure, they MAY work but....

The C rate subject was covered here http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2325.

As BM says - this page http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/converting-to-lithium.htm
describes how to do it with these;
http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=21
and this;
http://www.hyperionaustralia.com.au/product/1103.
Yes, the charger can do all sorts of stuff but you will probably end up with at least one just for the chair that only ever runs 1 configuration.
Once it is set up it there will be 2 plugs;
1 x 2 wire for main charge
1 x DB9 9 pin for balance
Plug them in and push the go button twice and that's it.

There is no better battery option ATMO....sure, there ARE other options that MAY work but if you bring them 1 at a time we'll be here for days going "The C rate is not high enough".

And you need a cell monitor to replace the factory gauge, maybe like this, maybe something else, haven't sorted it yet.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10952__Cell_Log_8M_Cell_Voltage_Monitor_2_8S_Lipo.html

[Fulliautomatix]

i love to see the pictures of others who are doing it -

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2014&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60#p33128

[expresso]

Very nice - good luck with the project -

as for me - i need to wait till things become more plug and play - who knows by then - maybe they will just put them in new chairs from the start - wouldnt that be great - wishful thinking i know

[Burgerman]

Its bound to happen. They put them into EVERYTHING else years ago. Toys, bikes, models, laptops, phones, electric cars, cameras, even my mouse and keyboard. And the mower. And the strimmer...

As usual powerchairs are ten years behind.

When they DO fit them, it will be a direct swap, so 50Ah for 50Ah so losing much of the huge size/weight/capacity advantage for marketing/cost reasons. Then the lithiums will get a bad name because they are overworked and dont offer any advantages and cost a fortune. So better to do it properly yourself. Or LESS even than original capacity, like the travelscoot...

[expresso]

I am hoping that once that happens and they do offer them as a option or standard etc, - or make a plug and play version - at that time - i hope they should be others on the market with higher Ah - sort of like today - you search for the size that fits in your box and get the biggest ones - drop them in and thats it -

if they had a option get them now - would be great - but if you have to redo all the other electronics etc. - may be too much to charge a person now - and with insurance issues - i dont think they would pay - which is stupid because comes out cheaper over the life of the chair - they wont have to pay for batteries every year - Mk will lose out mostly - and Us of course - we also loose out on any deals -

maybe for my next chair in 5 or 6 years - they may be a plug and play option - - at that time - i may be able to do it my current chair i am using now - after getting a new one and leaving that alone as is -

in my case - i need a plug and play situation - at least 90% plug and play -

[Burgerman]

There are many lithiums available now. For OUR use we need hi rate (High C rate / low resistance) same lithiums. That means Lithium Polymer or laptop style Lithium Ion are out. They can burn violently. The only true safe, easy to use, high C rate lithiums at a sensible price are the Headway cells.

So the choice of which to use has been made for us.

Its unlikely that there will be lithium 12v or 24v plug and play batteries and they are not even the right way to do it. Although thats easy, so thats what the manufacturers will do.

In the interests of efficiency, its better to say, double the volts. Why? Because that allows one of two options:

a) double the speed with no loss of range or torque. Lead cant do this because it cannot support the C rate needed when the capacity is halved and the vopltage is doubled. Lithium can with the right cells. This is why my BM3 is 45 volts and 15mph.

b) double the torque or use half the "motor" power and get the same torque by halving the gear ratio. This means same performance as with lead but only HALF the battery power required (cheaper) and a smaller lighter cheaper motor... The manufacturers havent realised this yet or they would be doing this today. Because it means cheaper better chairs and less weight and the battery is then the same price...

Either way, this is the correct way. So not lead replacement bricks.

[expresso]

i dont see it happening for us wheelchair users - maybe some time down the line - it has to change and improve - maybe 20 years from now - theres too much involved in terms of insurance also - they have to follow rules which limit change also -

your chair doing 15 mph - is excellent - i would love it - but how many users can handle that speed - or even the speed i have now - alot can i am sure - and alot feel they can - but really cant and get themselves in trouble - either hurt themselves and others -

i guess in the country where theres more open roads etc, - but here in the city - i hit someones legs the other day - not really my fault - but i hit him behind his legs when he crossed in front of me after going left to right and couldnt make up his mind where he was going

i tried to go around then he walked the other way etc, - till i hit him - on the sidewalks with these people walking all over the place - and i cant go too slow - dont feel good like i am moving - but i was maybe too fast for the sidewalks -

i wasnt in a good mood that day -

15 mph sounds so good !!! - i have to try to test my speed - i am faster than all the other chairs i ride with - but i dont feel that fast - a friend has a invacare with the GB motors - i think her chair is about 7 or 7 1/2 mph - not sure - which -

its at least 7mph - now i programmed my chair on one mode at 90% speed - and i am close behind her - not far off - side by side and just a big behind sometimes - - - but if i go to the next mode at 100% - i pass her easily and pull away - so that last 10% makes the whole difference -

[Burgerman]

i dont see it happening for us wheelchair users - maybe some time down the line - it has to change and improve - maybe 20 years from now - theres too much involved in terms of insurance also - they have to follow rules which limit change also -

Insurance only affects the somewhat screwed up system in the US. Thats about 250 million out of 7 billion people. Theres a hell of a lot more people in europe alone. But in any case even in the US there are plenty of people that are prapared to actually buy a better powerchair rather than spend their lives traped in some useless low tech bone shaker, just because some insurance says thats what they are getting. so I dont really see that as the only/main reason.

your chair doing 15 mph - is excellent - i would love it - but how many users can handle that speed - or even the speed i have now - alot can i am sure - and alot feel they can - but really cant and get themselves in trouble - either hurt themselves and others -

I had a 200 mph plus 300bhp turbocharged suzuki, the speed limit was 70mph. Achievable in 2.9 seconds, in 1 gear out of 5. The throttle goes both ways. The law may say in this country, 4mph in public areas, 8mph on roads, for mobility vehicles. But that doesent mean I cannot legally fit a 3 position switch and have 4, 8, and 15 for private land. EG I fly planes on an airfield. The loo is a mile away! My van is a mile away. I need to make several trips to fetch my planes, etc. Anyway you didnt understand my point.

Going up in voltage CAN allow double the speed with no range penalty or torque penalty. But you dont have to do that. I did. The OTHER thing it allows is motors of HALF the size and weight, and half the gear ratio. Net result is:
1. lighter smaller motor probably cheaper too.
2. SAME speed as now
3. SAME range as now with HAALF the battery power. Making the lithium battery not half the weight and double the capacity but HALF the capacity, and 1/8th of the weight!
4. Because you need only half the battery the lithium can be cheaper!
5. The whole chair can now be much lighter and cheaper...
6. No loss of range or speed.

Doubling voltage and reducing capacity and gear ratio works only because you CAN do this with lithium, where lead doesent have adequate C rate. So MASSIVELY better chairs for less cost. Add to this greater efficiency because of weight reduction. And aagain more efficiency if brushless motors were used.

So increasing voltage doesent have to result in "free" extra speed, but other benefits. I prefer the speed and a BIGGER battery! Huge Range AND speed, and a weight reduction. All because of double the voltage.

its at least 7mph - now i programmed my chair on one mode at 90% speed - and i am close behind her - not far off - side by side and just a big behind sometimes - - - but if i go to the next mode at 100% - i pass her easily and pull away - so that last 10% makes the whole difference -

To a guy that is used to driving, and racing very fast bikes 15 mph feels stationary. 6 is painful. And In 15 years I never hit anyone.

[expresso]

i got you now - i agree its slow what ever speed we get - i been in a chair the past 10 years - i been used to driving my 380hp mustang cobra - had the engine - cam - heads - valves - about everything redone but the block on that car -

i get you with the speed thing - i can only speak for the people around me - the other wheelchair users i came across - they cant afford anything - not even if they can get a motor upgrade but have to pay out of pocket - like i just did for my chair -

they cant do it - cant afford it - i am sure there are many private people who can and will pay extra for features like what your doing - i just think the manufactors dont care to get involved in those special features upgrades even if they can make it ligther and cheaper - the 90% of wheelchair users i got to know since i been in one - all depend on the State insurance - Medicaid to pay for there chairs - DME's etc , the rules behind medicaid and DME dont make any sense - they waste more there way - but thats it - they would cover certain things - etc, and dont care if other things are needed or even cheaper -

but i get it - - they can use the better battery system - less battery - etc, and still get the same power as now with out having to go past there limit of 6.5 mph so insurance can pay for it - any chair which is considered a group 4 model - is not covered - you either pay the difference yourself or your not getting that chair - and the only difference between my old P220 group 3 and my new P222se group 4 - is the speed - motors - controller etc, - but its the speed which makes it a group 4 chair -

unless they change the rules of Medicare and Medicaid to allow users outdoor use - it wont change - they consider your chair only because you need it in door use - and for indoor use 6.5 mph is more than fast enough - even though they know everyone goes out with the chairs - they dont care about that -

anyway this is old news - i am sure you already know -

[Burgerman]

Beats me how they will pay for other life enhancing equipment from lowered floor minivans, fancy disabled freindly kitchens, wider doors, ramps, even move house, but will not pay for a better faster powerchair.

Seems to me I would get the "free" chair if I lived in the US that your insurance pays for, but would use it as a backup. I would still pay for the best chair available - regardless of cost - since I need it to have a good and independent active life. I have used and tested stock powerchairs and they are often pretty crap!

You spend every waking hour in a powerchair and it is an extension of you. It does everything you do. Or rather you go everytwhere it can at the speed it allows. It goes on dates, to meetings, to the cinima, to the airfield, it walks the dog along the beach, it cooks, gardens, and it is your vans seat! Its therefore more important than any van/kitchen/doorway/electric bed etc combined. It must be as capable as humanly possible and as compact, reliable, unseen, and as "go anywhere" as possible.

In the spinal injuries unit production line where I was after injury, there was a approx 50 percent split of us that were expected to get up to £2.5 million injury compensation from a third party like traffic insurance (car). Not me though. So HALF the people there could afford to buy a decent chair at least. Then theres those that already have money, businesses, property, or rich families or accident insurance pay outs of huge amounts.

Myself - pre accident - already had a house that I didnt live in, that I bought to rent out when I was 20. So someone else paid for that in rent! Called planning. I know how to manage money. I was living with parents so taking advantage of the situation to look after the future. And I worked. Hard. Everything from central heating engineer to building nitrous systems, rolling roads, testing bikes for magazines, I had several businesses, and worked in about half a dozen other jobs. I never bought anything ever on credit unless it was an investment like a house to rent out. And I invested rather than spent, and when I do spend I do it wisely.

When I had an accident, that left me paralised I had busnesses and cars/bikes to sell, insurances to pay out a few grand (not much), and a house that was paid up. Looking to the future, rather than not investing in the future and having everything "now" on credit works. And it left me, and many other people with nice house paid up, some in the bank, no real living expenses and easily able to buy or build a better powerchair. Buy a van, for eg at advantagous cash prices without paying out for credit etc. These are the kind of bad decisions that MAKE people poor and needing more credit. There are many people like me that can afford a chair even without any big compensation claims or other help.

Its like this, you either do so, or are limited to whatever crap "they" give you. Which isnt acceptable to me. I actually have 4 chairs built, one under construction. 2 are as new, one is old and never repaired or updated and used for dirty jobs, one in use daily, etc. These things are my legs. So you need the best possible and backup, at least!

[LROBBINS]

Beats me how they will pay for other life enhancing equipment from lowered floor minivans, fancy disabled freindly kitchens, wider doors, ramps, even move house, but will not pay for a better faster powerchair.

Medicare and Medicaid will NOT pay for any of this. The Veteran's Administration, and sometimes Vocational Rehab, will pay for some or all, but that's either a veteran's benefit or to let someone train for/get/hold a paying job, not regular health coverage. Ciao, Lenny

[Burgerman]

No, I meant the disabled in the US will/do pay for all of this stuff themselves, but are not prepared to buy a chair for themselves - which is arguably much more important. Thats what I dont get.

Here is the same to a degree with some people. The WC Services are supposed to provide a chair. They do, and usually its dismal. Last night there was a disabled woman in a powerchair sat down in a corridor in a barely motorized deckchair, rather than in the bar. She was amazed when I went past her, and up the over steep ramp into the bar. She said there was no way "they" would get her a chair like mine... I replied me either.

Not really related directly but...

Some people just expect that everything is someone elses responsibility. Never occurs that they could do better for themselves in life with everything, than relying on the state handouts/insurance etc. And its not just the disabled.

One of my carers has a job going into council houses where 80 percent approx are on benefits and getting hand outs for everything. Some have lived all their lives and many previous generations like this. Anyway he had a school leaver/work experience youth sent from a school to "help" him cleaning and polishing brand new kitchens that the council had just installed in hundreds of council houses after the tennents had ruined the last lot... He tells me these are very high quality and expensive and installed beutifully. He has to polish, clean, take any rubbish away as otherwise it would never be done. Anyway the work experience kid went to my carers house in a van that morning with him to collect his packing up/drink.

Kid said: Wow, the council look after all you posh people a lot better than they do us! Martin, my carer who is far from "posh", asked what he meant. He said, "all the gardens and streets are immaculately clean, all the rubbish in the gardens, old fridges, car parts, spray paint etc has been cleared and kept cleared!" followed by: "They only clear up our estate up a few times a year".

Seriously!
He still didnt understand when Martin explained that the front / back garden wasnt a rubbish tip. And that the council NEVER clear up as they dont need to, and that people repect their house/street, and dont fill it full of crap, old tyres or prams or broken kids toys or dead cars without wheels... Different world.

[expresso]

I agree with you 100% - i know maybe one or two other people who are very active and would agree with you also - its a bunch - hand full who really feel like you that i know - i am sure theres many more - i am still adjusting my chair feel that works for me - not only the joystick bracket that i had to fight to get - the cushion postioning - the back - the angle - simple things compared to what you do with your chairs - but same idea - if something you use everyday of your life - you want it to be comfortable - and like you said - an extension of your body - your arms - legs etc, - i know a friend of mine who gets a chair - and thats it - complains that its this and that - but never lifts a finger or even bothers to learn anything about it and what he can do about it to make it fit for him- its what they say for him is good - he accepts and leaves - then i hear it all the time - hes just that type who dosnt get involved at all - not even for himself -

i have my old chair - which hardly gets used now - i want to just keep that as is working order - just in case i need to use it while new one is in for repairs at some point i am sure - the new one i am happy with it - the speed etc, - its just a little fine tuning i need to do - and get rid of those squeaks -

i need the tech here for that - try a few things i been told it could be - i never knew - theres a tension nut to adjust the latches where the top frame latches onto - one thing i can try - mostly likely to make some affect -