PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

[mous3]

I have a fusion battery monitor and alarm attached to the balance leads set to beep at 2.6v per cell I can change it up a bit or down dependant on how far from recharging opportunitys I am venturing. But 60ha as we have discussed 4 times the range I'm used to

[Burgerman]

Well if you had 4x the ah of LEAD then you should get 6x the range!

[mous3]

We will see over the coming weeks,but the differnce is going to be huge

[Burgerman]

Have you managed to run them batteries down yet?

[mous3]

Yes 9 days of pottering about and using the bus but i have been using my manual chair to as dumb hoist on car is jamed up again the cable gets twisted and stuck have to take it all apart sort out the twist and put it all back together.

Me Thinks I could safely do to days at collage without a charge now i just need a mini wind turbine to charge from council flat no solar allowed but live on top of hill allways windy you get small free standing ones like the shop sings that turn in the wind

[davidpaul]

Is there any reason why I can't use the larger 15ah headway cells, other than the size ?

[Burgerman]

Whatever allows you to fit in the greatest Ah in a given space!

[shirley_hkg]

What Ah are your lithium batteries? I seem to remember you are using Pouch type soft case used A123 cells and lots of them? Does the fire risk with that type of call getting punctured worry you?

I put 10 pieces of these pouch cells as one. It is 200AH. So far so goog.

With cell price dropped TO OUR AFFORDABLE LEVEL , we have changed to 26650 cells now. My newest pack is 8S 72P of some SONY 3000 mAh cells, that are removed form UPS system in banking industry. That is 24V 216Ah , which cost $1,200 US INCLUDING LABOUR.

This is a sample before .

[Burgerman]

Rough math says about 80 to 90 miles range?

[shirley_hkg]

Your maths is right.

[CPguy]

This is insane! I think I have to go to Hong Kong right away for these large, cheap and nice batteries... I envy you!

[Burgerman]

You can get 26650 on eBay. http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksi ... &_from=R40

As used in all kinds of stuff. Including power tools.

The problem is that you need a LOT of separate cells... Big connection headache. And if you have a bad cell takes lots of work to find and fix. 572 of them in this case... You need to be committed!

[shirley_hkg]

Avoid 3,7V cells as they are too vigorous. Mine is A123 / Sony LiFeSO4, which is relatively saver.

[Burgerman]

Yes the case sizes match. That's what 26650 refers to.

The 3.7v cells are lithium ion like a laptop, they have lower cycle life, burn, and about double the possible capacity. These are charged at 4.20v per cell, and used in many things. 4.1V charge is better for lifespan. But reduces capacity. 500 cycles.

The 3.2v ones are safe. 2000 cycles if used properly. They don't burn or explode easily. LiFePO4 chemistry. These are about half the capacity of the cheap Chinese 3.7v cells, and are charged at 3.60v (3.65 used for speed/balance assist but shortens life a bit). These are normally found in portable drills etc.

http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/6610.pdf

[cdb0ewm]

Yes, basically full power (20 amps) regardless of capacity.
LiFe
3.600 Volts.
Correct cell count! 13 in my case, 8 in most others for 24v.
No time or capacity limit. (untick)
Correct Ah capacity, or up to say 30 percent less. It means the cut off point is later.
TCS 100
TCS END CONTINUE

The rest don't matter to most people so just ignore.

I'm starting the charging process on my Headway cells - 38140s and have a few questions on the Hyperion setup - probably just dumb mistakes

Voltage - in the voltage setup screen 3.6v is not an option. It goes from 3.3v to 6.6v.
Ah capacity - is that the capacity of a single cell, a group of cells connected in parallel or something else
Cell count - I can't find where you specify this in the menus

Thanks

[Burgerman]

Update to latest firmware.
Install PC software.

Are you doing this on a PC?
If not its an extremely good idea to do so. Its far easier to set everything up without fighting a push button menu.

LiPo or Lithium Polymer are NOMINAL 3.7v. They are charged at a default setting of 4.200v per cell.

Lion or Lithium Ion (cobalt type as used in laptops etc) are NOMINAL 3.6v cells. Charged at 4.100v. There's not many of these about now, and most are charged at 4.200v instead.

LiFe or Lithium ion Phosphate (LiFePO4) cells like A123, Headways, Calb, etc are NOMINAL 3.2v (or 3.3v). These are CHARGED at 3.600 by default. Headway recommend 3.650 volts. But while this helps balance and charge faster its probably going to shorten cell life a touch. SO leave at default 3.600v.

CHOOSE:

LIFE type
8 cells
CAPACITY choose YOUR capacity. 40Ah for e.g. is 40,000mAh. Add up all the cells in PARALLEL ignore series. (So it will be 1/8th of all your cells.)
20 CHARGE Amps (or whatever you want)
3 DISCHARGE Amps
2.7 DISCHARGE Volts
SAFETY TIMER - Untick
TCS Capacity 100
TCS End action CONTINUE
TVS ADJUST V set to 3.600v (default) or if you prefer 3.650v (headways recommended figure)
Store 50 (but don't use it, use discharge instead and stop at about half Ah point to store)
NAME anything you wish

[cdb0ewm]

I've got my cells individually all charged via the Hyperion 1420. My next step is to hook them together and connect the balancing wires. I just want to make sure I'm doing it right. Is the diagram below correct?

Thanks

WC BALANCE.png (41.31 KiB) Viewed 11831 times

[Burgerman]

No. That will make smoke.

You have drawn the 1 and 2 connecters in reverse so its making my head hurt... But the neg end starts at the other end of the battery.

_____Connector B_______ Connector A


Look at the CHARGER.

cell 7+ 6+ 5+ 4+ 3+ 2+ 1+ 1- on connector A on the right (this 1- is the battery negative as you look at the charger)
cell 14+ 13+ 12+ 11+ 10+ 9+ 8+ 8- on connector B.


The 1st connection on the right of A connector is the battery minus. The next 7 connections to the 8 pin connectors are each cells pos end. And again on socket B

[cdb0ewm]

Thanks for getting me straight.....I think! Let me know if I understand your response to my last email.

[Burgerman]

No... Your connector's are numbered backwards... connector pins 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

Again.


_____Connector B_______ Connector A


Look at the CHARGER.

cell 7+ 6+ 5+ 4+ 3+ 2+ 1+ 1- on connector A on the right (this 1- is the battery negative as you look at the charger)
cell 14+ 13+ 12+ 11+ 10+ 9+ 8+ 8- on connector B.


The 1st connection on the right of A connector is the battery minus. The next 7 connections to the 8 pin connectors are each cells pos end. And again on socket B

[Burgerman]

https://f47fb5b4-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.goo ... edirects=0

this is a 6 cell charger. So 7 pins. 2nd one down...

Or... plug seen from top...

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/convert ... ithium.htm

[cdb0ewm]

Sorry for being so thick headed. I've reviewed your several postings on this and here's what I've got.

[Burgerman]

No.

One of your problems is that you have the connectors numbered BACKWARDS. Which makes any simple explanation really involved.

Connector A goes (as I said above, twice) starts at 1 ONE on the right, Same on connector B.

Other than this, connector A is wired correctly,
But B is wrong. And the last pin, is for cell 14 and we only have 13.

These are the connectors pins... AS YOU LOOK AT THE CHARGER.

unused pin then 14 13 12 11 10 9 8N ---- 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1N

1N = NEG
8N = CELL 8 NEG
NUMBERS = CELL POSITIVE ENDS STARTING FROM THE NEG END.
PIN 7 AND 8N GO TO BTHE SAME POINT ON THE PACK.
PIN/CELL 14 IS UNUSED.

If you were charging 2 cells you would use:
1N for the neg
2 for the first cells pos
3 for the second cells pos
Etc...

Do the same for B

[woodygb]

Your pic also seems to show numerous short circuit connections .

I think that this is correct ..BUT I could be wrong.

PACK MOD.png (129.44 KiB) Viewed 12402 times

[Burgerman]

Connector B should be:

14 13 12 11 10 9 8 8N cells
8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 pins

Where 14 in not connected. And 8N goes to the same place as pin 8 on connector A...

[Irving]

Your pic also seems to show numerous short circuit connections .

I think that this is correct ..BUT I could be wrong.

The attachment PACK MOD.png is no longer available

You're right, it does.. & I think yours is right...

Here's my drawings of a 4p3s pack. I've doubled-up the 'inter-S' connection but its not strictly necessary on a small pack. I'd probably do 3 on an 8p pack

pack_front.png (113.89 KiB) Viewed 12400 times

pack_rear.png (130.72 KiB) Viewed 12400 times

[woodygb]

Your right that a few more bars would ideally be wanted ...but I thought that me drawing them in might cause extra confusion.
Here's a revision for B.M. to comment on the plug numbering.

PACK MODb.png (132.52 KiB) Viewed 12398 times

[Burgerman]

Correct!

[cdb0ewm]

OK...one more try. Part of my confusion was I though only 14 of the connections on the charger was used when it looks like 15 connections are used.
If I understand correctly the only connector pin not used is Connector B, pin 8 which is a red wire.
I also moved/added to the serial busbars.

[Burgerman]

Yes I think. I have never seen such a confusing drawing for something so simple. And your battery cell joining bus bars are all wrong. That will short it all out.