Bigger hyperion

[Burgerman]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4mm-Gold-connecto ... 4aa4641481

You want these, and some heatshrink. Good for lots of amps. And an anderson on the end. You need some making the other way around too for charging the chairs. I have long/short and 12v and 24v ones. For both ends. The charger works at 250 watts at 12v. But it works from a chairs batteries better at 24 with 550 watts...

[TwoTeasChris]

I'm gonna get me some bling.

Thanks John.

[TwoTeasChris]

How have you connected your mains wires to the back of the PSU? I screwed the clamp down on to the end but it keeps twisting the wire so one bare side sticks out. Must be a better way?

[Burgerman]

Soldered a loop in the wire.

And cable tied it to the air slots so it cant be moved about...

[Burgerman]

For what its worth the new 1320 charger can also charge at up to almost 60 volts.

So while the lead acid algo currently is firmware limited to 24v, its quite capable of being updated (as soon as I get hold of the guy doing firmware!) to do 36v as well as 48v too at up to 550 watts...

Perfect charger for my new powerchair at 36v. And even 48, or more lithium power...

It can already charge at 48v if you lie to it and tell it its charging CC/CV lithium Ion Phosphate... So expect a firmware update soon!

[saintort]

if we have anderson connectors on each battery to charge them separately
can we do away with the jumper between the batteries that connect them in series
and make a jumper using the andersons to connect them in series after we finish the 12 volt charging ?
maybe even make anothe jumper to be able to charge both at 24 volts too?

[TwoTeasChris]

Yes. That is what some of us are doing.
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=336

[Burgerman]

All of my chairs do exactly this.

Each one has no connection between the two batteries. (or three in my new chair)

There is a link externally to drive. And the two (or three) connectors give 12v x2 access. Or 24v (or 12v x3 and 36v)

This allows 12v or 24v charging - say from your cars alternator. Been doing this years.


See here...

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/faster- ... arging.htm

And here...

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/wheelch ... ectors.htm

And about half a dozen other pages on charging... You can safely charge your batteries at about 100 amps oir so this way. At 12, 24, 36v as required and choose which... Have a read!

[JoeC]

You just need to make sure you understand exactly what you're doing, or you'll have a really spectacular fire on your hands! I have done some extra leads out of the batteries, and all the fuses I included definitely saved me some pain. It was a headache figuring out why I blew a few two or three times, but much less so than melting something and having to yank it apart before ignition! If a lead is intended just for charging and not for anything higher power, I tend to throw a fuse in line with it. Of course some people charge directly from automotive alternators at 100+ amps, so that might not work, but for me it gives good peace of mind.

[Burgerman]

Theres a 100 amp fuse in the two connectors on my van.

There are non on my chairs since the same cables are used for powering the controller etc...

Just understand what you are doing!

[TwoTeasChris]

Do these settings look okay? (Parallel.)
You said that 14.4v is fast but shortens the life of the batts. 14.1 is ideal but too slow. So I set it to 14.34 because most of the time the batteries will only be 10/20% used and it will be on charge for at least 8 hours. Does that sound about right? I will have another slot with 14.4v for more aggressive charging.

What about the float v ? This isn't for long term.

It will lower the v from 14.34 to 13.68 when the amps gets to 0.75?

I'll ask all about discharging later.

edit:
Refound this: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/hyperion.htm. That helps. But I'll wait until tomorrow until I plug it into the chair.

It's addictive isn't it. It's 2.24 am and there are all sorts of things I should have done.

[Burgerman]

You should set that to 100Ah when charging 2 in parallel, since its the largest option. Your 12v pack is actually 75Ah x 12v. When charging 24v then its 75Ah.

It affects when the charger decides its done. Ie it knows the capacity and can better decide when enough is enough.

You mean you didnt actually plug it in yet?

[TwoTeasChris]

You mean you didnt actually plug it in yet?

The chair was already charged. And I didn't know how to make a pretty graph for above my headboard.

I'll use the settings on that page (http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/hyperion.htm) but with 100Ah.

Double your recommended amps since the batts will be sharing?

[Burgerman]

mAX IS 20. Set it to 20 if in a hurry. Or 10 to 14 overnight if its not very discharged, etc. You will need to test it out.

Already being charged is no reason not to "top up" or discharge them a little (it does that too) to test it out.

Ideally you want to do a discharge graph and measure capacity for each battery over the 10 or 20 hour rate. And keep them as a reference. Then charge. Then test again 6 months down the line to see how they are doing...

Discharge to the default figure as under load thats a real 90 percent level on a typical battery. Start after a top up obviously.

[Burgerman]

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/hyperio ... harger.htm

Charge amps depends on a bunch of things.
a) how long you have. Best charge "amount" goes in when you do it slowly. So aim for it to be completed by when you need it. Ie charge slower overnight. Err on the side of being done too fast rather than too slow!
b) after considering the above also think about how discharged they are. Heavy use will need a higher charge rate to be ready for the morning.
c) in a hurry? Set it to max... 20 amps. I tend to do that anyway and ignore the above - especially with AGM batteries because the rate of charge and the amount of charge acceptance change is pretty small anyway.
d) Age of batteries... Old used up ones take forever in the last part. So set them high...
e) 24v or 12v? When charging at a split charge 12v you NEED double the amps. 20 is really 10 per battery. So set to max anyway. If you are charging in a hurry charge at 24v and 20 amps. Fast charge? 24vc Slow charge? 12v...

Dont forget to set 20 amps as the max INPUT or your power supply may object! (Smoke!) although mine (cheap ebay industrial) seems fine at more than its rated 20...

[Burgerman]

Remember that 14.7 (29.4) volts is MAX level for a fast charge on AGM.
Plus 14.4 (28.8) IS MAX volts for fast charge on Gel

Time not an issue? (overnight)
14.4 / 14.5 volts AGM
14.1 / 14.2 volts Gel

These voltage differences make a big difference to charge times too!

Float?
Cyclic AGM 13.5v / 13.6V
Store AGM 13.1v / 13.3V
Cyclic Gel 13.7v / 13.8v
Store Gel 13.4v to 13.5v

Amps? Max in all cases if in a hurry, less if you have time will give a greater return. (slightly...)

Discharge? one battery. To 10.8v Under load. Thats about 12v off load. or approx 90 percent discharge.
12v - 5 amps. At the ten hour rate that will give about the correct discharge to get 90 percent level.
12v - 3 amps. at the 20 hour rate that will give about 95 percent discharge over around 20 hours... This is what the manufacturers use.

[TwoTeasChris]

Right. I'll get it tattooed onto my arm!

Discharging.
So it takes it to 10.8 but if left on its own for enough time the battery would recover to about 12?
Does it draw the juice out by heating the room?
One battery because it's pointless otherwise. We are just gathering data, right?

I've got the chair on charge at the moment just to get used to the software. Everything is pretty much making sense. Until I have a reason to use lithium I suppose. My daughter yesterday started taking an interest in rc cars but I've not even looked at anything yet. I suppose it doesn't have to be lithium. I'd love a heli but don't want to get arrested as it would be used 1 mile south of the runway!

Just now I switched the heated cushion on to see how the charger would respond. Amps and volts responded and recovered predictably. Can I ignore the spike at 15v for under a second when I switched the cushion off? Any harm if I use the cushion while charging occasionally? Would make it go back to CC I suppose. edit: No it wouldn't.

[Burgerman]

Quick spike as you turn the cushion off wont hurt. It recovers and reoganises itself very fast.

Yes if youi take out enough power it will just run up to your set amp limit so CC...

Discharge heats the room!

Interesting isnt it.

Its also interesting to know that it stops charging when the cv stage reaches 1/100th your chosen capacity. So 70Ah battery stops charging at 0.7 amps and the graph ends.

But keep watching and when the voltage falls below your choosen float level it will start pumping in whatever amps are needed to hold it at the correct voltage. That never ends.

This will be high (up to 1/3rd amp?) to begin with. Since CV does not completely charge the battery. Almost but not quite. The higher float level used for cyclic charging does this, more quickly. The lower float for storage does it too but takes about a week... And is better for the battery.

You will soon be an expert.

[JoeC]

I'm ordering mine today, along with a couple of other bits and pieces if I can think of anything to roll into the order. Only $179 shipped, which at today's rate converts to 135 euros, or 113 pounds.

[Burgerman]

Considering its flexibility and build quality it makes boring plug and play chargers look rather expensive!

It can charge up to 14 lipo batteries which is 4.2 (plus) x 14 = 58 volts plus...

So with a firmware fix it will be able to do 36 and 48v lead acid too... So I am asking the director of Hyperion for a firmware update. Fingers crossed! Busy guy.

[TwoTeasChris]

...
But keep watching and when the voltage falls below your choosen float level it will start pumping in whatever amps are needed to hold it at the correct voltage. That never ends.
...

I sat here waiting for that.

To continue from the "Where to find ..." thread:

What would happen if she plugged in the pod charger and Hyperion at 24v at the same time? Fight? Smoke? Maybe I should put tape over the pod socket. There are other people here that could plug in the Hyperion for her 95% of the time if her hands hurt.
Yeah, I'll do that. One charger, one lead, and no possibility of anyone trying to charge at 12v and 24v at the same time.

[TwoTeasChris]

... along with a couple of other bits and pieces if I can think of anything to roll into the order...

I might get a propeller for the back of the chair with my 2nd one, just to see peoples faces.

Hmm, I'd have to turn round to see them!

[Burgerman]

What would happen if she plugged in the pod charger and Hyperion at 24v at the same time? Fight? Smoke?

Nothing will happen. Both will charge normally.

Not sure what would happen if you were charging "split" at 12v though... I tried working it out and my brain started hurting. IO think the charger will just see 12v - one battery and should error... But if it tries to charge then it will just do "8" amps or whatever it does, until it sees about 28v which will never happen so it would overcharge the batteries.

[JoeC]

... along with a couple of other bits and pieces if I can think of anything to roll into the order...

I might get a propeller for the back of the chair with my 2nd one, just to see peoples faces.

Hmm, I'd have to turn round to see them!

She already has 50 watts worth of fans blowing on the motor controller to keep it cool!

I was just thinking about clips, connectors, wires... I found a nearly free surplus 24V 10A supply, so if I program things correctly then my bag of 15A anderson connectors should be OK for now. Perhaps some heat shrink or self-healing silicone tape would be useful for weatherproofing the DC-DC converter that I bought for her to have a powered USB port for cell phone and MP3 player charging.

[Burgerman]

She already has 50 watts worth of fans blowing on the motor controller to keep it cool!

Im fat, have everything programmed to the max, drive off road and along the beach. And up hills and even up the spiral ezit on multi story car parks... No fans. No foldbacks and no heat problem...

Its set to "fold back" at 70 degrees, from 100 to 80 amps. It never has as far as I can tell... Not sure why everyone fits fans.

[JoeC]

Her rollback is set to begin at 65, and end at 80, and the power module is attached to a large aluminum plate with good airflow. Since changing this from a more "stock" configuration, she can now almost play without fans at all, but during heavily competitive play or during certain drills, it begins to overheat with the fans turned on. To be honest the fans are only 50 watts because when I reconfigured things to the aluminum plate I said to myself, "If this doesn't get rid of overheating once and for all, I'll eat my hat!" and I took the two fans I had and put them in parallel. It's quite loud and draws about 2 amps now, so I'm about to re-wire them to run in series for power conservation. It was overkill, but when they're running she absolutely does not encounter thermal rollback anymore.

Now, would you even perceive the level of thermal rollback that she perceives? Probably not. She'll try to spin 360 degrees at full speed, and if it takes 0.1 seconds longer than she's expecting then her kick is off. She could still easily do wheelies, but it throws off the timing. Here's an experiment for warmer weather- go out in your driveway and do a wheelie, then as soon as your wheels are off the ground, back up at full speed and do another. Repeat 100 times without stopping, and see if you encounter any thermal rollback.

[Burgerman]

100 of those (or about 10 in reality) and I encounter battery "rollback"!!! I can feel it, I can measure it, and hate it! Long before the box gets warm. In fact any amount of abuse doesent seem to get it warmer than about 50 to 60 degrees. Guestimated since I just put my hand on it. Sand gets it as hot as anything can and even then not an issue. Maybe the internals are very efficient? Although I dont see why they would be compared to the roboteqs 32 HE mosfets!

Maybe its just a miserably cold country! We have had a week or 10 days of heavy snow, and it was -13 centigrade yesterday... Minus 8 right now. All my trees/plants are dead and theres 3 feet of snow on top of my van... You dont want to see the street.

[JoeC]

I can't explain the difference in what we're seeing, but I do know that when the batteries were bad the chair didn't have any pep EVER, and with the Odyssey PC1500's it works great. If it starts to get sluggish we turn the fan on, and it's great again. Maybe it has to do with the motors or gears- I have definitely measured short term peaks in battery terminal voltage during hard deceleration, so I know that every time she takes off hard and then stops, she is putting some of that kinetic energy back into the batteries. I'm just speculating.

It would be very interesting to see what battery life you get with the Roboteq operated at 24 volts on the F55 and Groove motors. Better battery life on the F55 motors would tell you it's the controller (unlikely, I think, or it would be getting hot- right?), better on the Groove would tell you it's the F55 motors (unlikely to actually be better due to the speed increase, but would be an eye opener if true), and if there is no major difference then it will be a little boring, but maybe a good benchmark to compare to 36V operation.

We will have three different chairs here with three very different motors (gearless brushless, geared 90 degree, and geared inline), four chairs if the S646se was in good repair, and the Hyperion for measuring AH back in after driving a set route. I doubt I'd be able to interest my wife in such an involved experiment, but if it doesn't inconvenience her then I can probably work something out. I have some time to think about what I would hope to learn from this.

[Burgerman]

Latest PC software for hyperion... Uninstall existing first and then install this http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/hyperion.zip

Its a beta but is the same as you are using but with some bug fixes... See readme. Tested for 3 days no probs...

[JoeC]

Mine shipped today, and will be here the 14th.