Storm 4 is brilliant!!!

[sakima]

I weigh about 12 stone, that's about 168lb or 72kg.
I live in a hilly town.

I have had a Storm 3 since 2006. I was very happy with it, but over the past year/18 months I have been spending out on it. So, at the end of last year, I decided to get a new chair.
I go out, on my own, a hell of a lot! (Trains as well!)
I had a very, very severe stroke in 2004. I 'just' have some movement in my left arm and hand and my speech is 'just' understandable, but I am very independent. (and health conscious!)
You could visit my website;
http://www.timsstroke.co.uk
to find out more about me.

I got a 6mph, You Q, Luca just before Christmas 2013.
But I didn't really get on with it and I seemed to be calling out a mechanic every month.

I traded it in, in July and upgraded to a You Q Alex.
I just couldn't get to grips with the extra suspension that it's got. It seemed to 'dive' forwards and back when it went over bumps and it was very jerky at low speeds.
(Maybe, as it's about 100kg, you need to be heavier.)

The suppliers took that back after less than a month.
I thought that a heavier chair would be more beneficial to me, my life-style and terrain.
I was interested in a Storm 4 as it is much, much heavier at nearly 170kg!
A Storm 4, in white, was ordered.
It is brilliant!
I love it!
It looks fantastic! I get comments about how great it looks!
The 'drive' is so, so smooth. I used to have to go in to shops in a low gear in ALL the other chairs, as they could not handle 'crawling' along whilst still in a top gear. The Storm 4 can, as it is so smooth.
The suspension is really, really great and as the castor wheels are fatter than the You Q's, so they absorb bumps better.
The steering, again, is so smooth and precise.
This is supposed to be a 6mph chair, as was the Luca, but this chair is deffo faster than that! My old Storm 3 was an 8mph chair. I think it could be as fast as that! My son says it is!
I have a 'modulite – flex 3 back' which is great.

I do have a couple of gripes however.
I have a side-support (thoratic-support) on mine and it is longer than the Storm 3 one (which I am currently using) and because it is longer, (yes it bends) it limits your arm movement and it's face, is flat. The Storm 3 one is much better, as it is shaped to a back shape and therefore gives you more support.
The other thing is, if you have a 'riser' on your chair like me, it restricts the 'recline' by about 10%. But if you 'tilt' right back, the 'recline' seems to go right back!


I think all chairs should come with touch-up paint. (For all areas.)


I have a 'Vicair' cushion and it is very, very comfortable. (I am in my chair, solidly, for about 12 hours.)

[Burgerman]

http://www.invacare.co.uk/articles/invc ... -54-32.php

I tried one at a mobility show. Different chairs suit different people. So it may suit your needs fine. And you are light so the following will affect you less than me.

But to me it was almost unusably nose heavy. I couldn't live with it any longer than the 30 mins I was testing it at a mobility show. Drove me mad. Reversing up the ramp to my van for eg it lost traction and stopped. No way it would go up. Too nose heavy.
It affects everything, making it cumbersome indoors with the drive wheels far behind you (me). And the front swinging around in larger arcs. And more importantly outdoors, on any uneven ground, it keeps its heavily loaded front casters on the floor with you sat over them and a rear wheel leaves the deck. Meaning you lose all steer and control. This happens as you turn at the top of a ramp, or as you let a front wheel run into a dip. Or over some uneven pavements because of tree roots. And they sink into soft ground too as they are carrying a lot of weight. So you dare not try the beach or soft ground for eg. You will get stuck.

Its programming was soft, soggy and delayed. I drive with full skilled hand coordination, and my chairs are programmed to be instant and proportional. I never turn them off the highest speed.

Programming doesn't actually matter of course. As all chairs can be made to drive and steer in completely identical fashion to each other with the correct programming tool and the correct guy changing the settings. Unless its too nose heavy.

[sakima]

I went off road the other day, a stony n muddy path. I went through mud over big stones n tree roots, up a muddy bank and the chair was nothing short of brilliant.
I cannot believe how good the ride was.
It took the terrain in it's stride, which surprised me.
I did not have the problem of the back wheels leaving the deck going over the tree roots, (so it's not nose heavy for me. It must be your weight! Maybe.) nor do I have that problem on dips or ramps, as I go out on the train a lot and some of those ramps are steep.

I don't have the programming tweeked in any way. It is all the original programming which is sharp and responsive.

The back part of my bum, is directly over the rear wheels, which puts my back over the rear part of the rear wheels and the castors are just behind my legs!
It sounds like the Storm 4 that you tried, was completely different to this one. Shame because it is an utterly brilliant chair.

I think that it is much, much better than the old Storm 3. (and that was good!)

[Burgerman]

>>> I don't have the programming tweeked in any way. It is all the original programming which is sharp and responsive.

You have absolutely no idea how bad that really is. Or what sharp and responsive actually means in a powerchair. Because first you need to try a chair with all that delay and turn accelerations and turn decelerations etc completely removed. All stock chairs have loads! Set to "off" or 100 everywhere that matters. After that, then you will understand! Honestly all stock powerchairs are practically un-drivable and hard to control unless you go slow and mush them about. You don't see this, only because you know no different. Nothing to compare it to.

Ask anyone who has actually tried removing all of the above. Theres loads here on this site. Its a revelation. Then after you gain some real control, you too will "feel" that its really nose heavy. Its very inhibiting. You can see that, even without even trying one. Just look at a photo. The weight is forwards biased. But I have tried a storm 4. It had about 35 to 40 percent of its weight over the front if not more. And no way to fix it. All stock rear drive chairs are this way because they have to pass a test that makes them accelerate up a slope without tipping back at full stick/speed. And its the only solution. The test that all rear drive chairs must comply with is the reason they all end up like that. Which makes the chair "safe" but useless...

Watch this vid. See how the seating is very "forwards". Its one of the most nose heavy chairs out there. http://www.invacare.co.uk/articles/invc ... -54-32.php

Also have a read here: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/powerch ... amming.htm The steering, and accuracy and linearity as well as the speed of response can be improved on your chair beyond all recognition. It will steer like a computer mouse or a car. Right now, like all stock programmed powerchairs, it steers like a non proportional time delayed device. You cant hit a doorway with any accuracy without slowing down first or praying.

[sakima]

because you know no different. Nothing to compare it to.

DON'T INSULT ME. I WASN'T BORN YESTERDAY!
If you read my first post, you will note that I have had a Luca and an Alex, (and a Storm 3 and a Spectra plus) I think the Storm 4 is much better than them, it responds far better than them, it drives more accurately and the ride is great.

My frame and controller look different to the one in that video. It also demonstrates how you can adjust the seat depth. My cushion is 20" deep.

You ask for powerchair reviews on this site, but I didn't expect to get personally slagged off and have my review criticized!
It is my review and I can only give you my findings and if I look over the side, I am sitting right above the back wheel AND NOT in front of it and I do not have any tipping issues. (Maybe it is cos I am lighter and therefore keep the c of g lower!)

[Burgerman]

>>>DON'T INSULT ME. I WASN'T BORN YESTERDAY!
If you read my first post, you will note that I have had a Luca and an Alex, (and a Storm 3 and a Spectra plus) I think the Storm 4 is much better than them, it responds far better than them, it drives more accurately and the ride is great.

_______

Seriously, I am not trying to insult you. Read it again! I am explaining that you cant know if you have not experienced the difference. All of these chairs in your list are the same give or take a bit as far as control is concerned. They all use similar common generic controllers and software. The Storm 4 may be a fraction better than some but it is still pretty abysmal. ALL chairs are like this by default unless you sort out the programming.

I am trying to help you. Your chair can be massively better than it is and much more intuitive and natural and more controllable and accurate. All powerchairs drive the same way. Some are just terrible. Most are really terrible. All of them. There isn't a mainstream powerchair made that reaches the market without all that turn acceleration and deceleration, already programmed in to make it "safe" for the unskilled and to satisfy the legislators.

So, I was trying to make you understand that can be improved beyond all recognition and then your chair will drive absolutely proportionally and in a true linear fashion and not "time based" as if the joystick is connected directly to the wheels. If you can source a low level (OEM level) programmer. You will be amazed and will then absolutely understand what I am saying. If you don't try it you will never know. There are plenty on this forum that have done exactly this, and one or two of them may well be along to explain what I am talking about!

[Burgerman]

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=717

From 2008 or 2009 - storm 4 test, 19 posts and a few owners issues for you.

[ICEUK]

Thx for the review sakima its appreciated.

[Burgerman]

Quite! I do also appreciate it.

[HiltonP]

Sakima, John (Burgerman) isn't trying to insult you, he's just being really honest and upfront with you.

I have the Action Arrow, and their RangerX model. I also thought that the programming was okay until I managed to get hold of a programmer module and spent a couple of hours/days recalibrating everything. The chairs were completely transformed and what I previously thought was acceptable became unacceptable. The re-programmed controllers made the chairs far more responsive both indoors and out, actually making them far safer and more intuitive to handle.

We are not saying that your review is incorrect, merely that an already good wheelchair could be even better if it was programmed correctly.

Listen to what John says, he knows far more than the manufacturers!...

[popschief]

As a devotee of proportional control (heavy equipment operator all my life) B-Man is absolutely right. You may wonder how I know this. I have operated countless types of equipment as an Operating Engineers Union member from the tender age of 18. if any piece I ran was to have functioned as these stock programmed chairs do, it would have had to have been parked as unusable. I have licenses to operate fixed and rotor winged aircraft and even they are as much if not more responsive except at marginal speeds. Large boats (oil tankers and such) would be a good comparison to the present day mush wagons we are relegated to. While running machinery of many types I've had to be able to adapt to the varying control characteristics of all of them but after four full years in chairs with four different control systems I still must slow to a crawl to negotiate a doorway or ramp. It's upsetting to me when someone extols the virtues of something as limited as the stable of chairs available to us. The way the industry sends out this equipment with dismal handling and no readily available options for end users and even 'technicians' to program them is nothing less than despicable. The only mitigating response would be by those without the hand-eye coordination requirements to precisely and accurately make safe decisions.
bp

[ex-Gooserider]

Same here - reprogramming changed my chair in incredible ways, and made it massively better in handling and driving precision....

One of the things I get constantly is comments on how well I am able to drive my chair, particularly in places that need tight manuvering...

Now certainly some of that comes from far more hours of forced practice than I like, but there are lots of wheelers with more time in a chair than I have... I attribute a lot of it to the fact that after reprogramming, my chair does EXACTLY what my joystick tells it to, when it tells it to... This makes my chair control to the extent that I am able to control my joystick...

But until I tried the reprogramming, I didn't realize how bad the chair was.....

ex-Gooserider

[sakima]

I have queried with Invacare why my chair looks so different than the one in their sales stuff.
I sent this;

I recently ordered a Storm 4 through Exeter Disability Centre.
I have no complaints as I think it is a brilliant chair with excellent suspension and responsive drive.
However, this Storm 4 appears to be quite a bit different to the one in your sales literature.
1. In the sales bumff, the telescopic lift is in 2 sections, with the smaller section at the bottom. Mine is in 3 with the smaller section at the top!
2. Your frame shows 1 piece. Mine is 'capped' making it 2 pieces!
3. Recess for the sticker/decal. I haven't got one!
4. You show an orange indicator cover. Mine is clear!
5. You show an ACS controller. Mine is the same as the Storm 3!
6. You show no handles with the modulite. I have a 'Flex 3' back, with handles!

Can you address the above queries?



They sent this;

Hi Tim,

Question 1 - 4

The design was changed in 2012 but the brochure was not updated. We will do this asap.

Questions 5 & 6

These chairs are manufactured to order and may not be exactly as pictured due to different needs for each person.

Hope this helps and sorry for the inconvenience.

Any further questions please feel free to mail.

Thank you


In that video the seating position is forward, but if u look at the sales brochure http://doclibrary.invacare.fr/Office/Europe/Marketing/MktDocUK.nsf/VALLMDocument/5D53F4A83F0C30B1C1257C74003C5123/$File/Storm%204_UK.pdf it isn't.
I am 'slightly' further back than that.

I have done the review, so I will continue in the other forum. BUT you should know that I suffered a M A S S I V E stroke and I have no movement in my right arm/hand n have about 5 - 10% movement in my left arm/hand, I cannot straighten my arm, lift, reach or grip n release very well, so I am limited to an 'off the shelf' wheelchair and the Storm 4 ticked all the right boxes and I found the drive, handling, suspension, build quality and general chair thingys, to be far, far better than the Luca or Alex.
It possibly could be improved, but I am not in a position to do that. I am very, very happy with how it is now.

[Burgerman]

>>> Luca or Alex

These two, along with all production chairs, suffer the same nose heavy and delayed steer (and delayed stop steering) programming. And can be improved beyond recognition.

Unless you are limited in control capability physically.

To take advantage of a chair that isn't nose heavy, and to actually use a true directly proportional accurate linear joystick, you do need to have good hand function and "normal" control skills as well as a bit of practice. The practice you get regardless, since you have no choice.

The hand and coordination and "feel" required may not be possible with your hands. In which case you don't really have a lot of choice but to go with the "mash it and wait" stock control programming anyway unfortunately. But its still worth getting hold of a programmer (or someone with an OEM level tool) if at all possible, to spend a couple of hours seeing if its possible to drive set like this, or even some halfway house settings that better suit your capability. You wont look back.

Especially turn deceleration. That stupid setting keeps it turning long AFTER you decide you no longer want to do so. It needs setting to 100. So it stops turning when you tell it. Its the one that makes it slam into door frames and off ramps etc if you don't go very carefully...

[sakima]

...............Its the one that makes it slam into door frames and off ramps etc if you don't go very carefully...


It doesn't.

[Burgerman]

Unless you set turn acceleration, and turn deceleration to 100, (or affectively off) and set minimum turn acceleration ad min turn acceleration to 100 as well, every single chair on the market DOES do that. All of them. The settings they all come with by default are time delayed. So someone with no skills can "safely" mash the stick about, and not get into much trouble. Those same settings are a complete liability to anyone with good skills that wants to manoeuvre around fast through furniture, people or maybe a gap between a wall and a lamp post at speed. Plain dangerous!

By default all the chairs I ever reprogrammed or examined, with any mainstream manufacturer (meaning anything with Dynamic, or PG drives, Curtis, etc controls which is 99 percent of all chairs) have these values set to around 25 to 35. Meaning they simply do not steer.

The reason you think it does is that you DO slow down for doorways etc. Or you are always moving slowly. Because you have no choice. NO stock production chair steers safely of properly until these 4 settings at very least are set to 100 or close to that.

So the fact that you claim otherwise can only mean that either you go very slowly, and/or you have nothing to compare it to. I would love to reprogram your chair for a day. Theres no way in hell you would let me put it back how it is now! I have done this so many times and had exactly that response so many times I lost count.

[sakima]

Oh yeah!
What BMan is on about, is a pre-2012 model. Invacare re-designed it in 2012. Mine is 2014 and COMPLETELY different to the one BMan reviewed. Invacare say that they 'need' to change the sales bumff, as that still shows the pre-2012 model.
Personally, I think they should call it the Storm 4 mk 2.

[Burgerman]

http://doclibrary.invacare.co.uk/Office ... ct=60_STO4

Docs above, service and parts list dated 2011 to 2014 show it uses the same standardised industry motors and parts since 2011 or earlier, onwards. Including control systems, which is the Dynamic Shark (low power), or DX2 (better) systems as used on around 1/4 of all the mainstream powerchairs sold by many different manufacturers all over the planet.

Including a few members here, that have built their own chairs once reprogrammed for control. So nothing of any substance has changed between the early Storm chairs and the newest ones. Only the "style" or colours etc. But nothing mechanical or electrical that affects what I have said. And it wont do either, because of many daft legislative rules and regulations that make them program all chairs this way.

Powerchair manufacturers buy in all these standard parts (motors, controllers, power modules, wheels, etc) and only assemble the standardised bits and pieces and then they just make the frame and a few covers etc. Which is why all chairs perform the roughly the same. (Although Invacare recently bought Dynamic Controls).

As such there hasn't been a chair produced by any mainstream manufacturer that is substantially different from each other for 20 years. All use the same main components. All display the exact same mushy pudding stick stirrer programming, for "safety" reasons, and to satisfy legislation, and all rear drive chairs are way too nose heavy. Same reason - there's an ott tipping back on a slope test while accelerating... In many cases this stuff can be fixed afterwards, by reprogramming correctly, and moving the seating rearwards.

As such, if you understand chairs, one glance at its control system, and layout to estimate CG position and wheel size tells you everything you need to know about how it will perform even before you actually sit in it.

As such, if you were to move your seat back 2 to 3 inches, reprogram all the turn acc/deceleration out, it will be a much better chair.

[Burgerman]

Or does yours not look like this



OR



All very obviously nose heavy setups and really long.

Compared to say my own chairs. Where you have only a few lb over the casters and your head id the first thing to touch a wall when you reverse. And total length inc footplates and anti tips is under 30 inches.



Or use industry standard Dynamic Shark or DX2 controls? http://dynamiccontrols.com/en/mobility- ... s/products SEE HERE

[sakima]

Nope! Similar, but that is not like my Storm 4!

I told u (n showed u) Invacare have completely re-designed it since those pics were taken. Why Invacare still use that type of sales bumff n those pics, god only knows!

It drives so sweeetly too. At high speed the steering is so sensitive, immediate and precise and not mushy n time delayed as u remember it.

U did test the type in these pics, which is now obsolete. (Cars change year by year. So a car model might be deemed as crap in 2011/12 but might be good in 2013/14!)

That link, still uses the old Storm 4 pics. It doesn't look like that now. Invacare have said that they need to update that bumff.

If u are a heavier wheelchair user, u will effect the c of g and the handling, quite dramatically, (unless it is adjustable. Which it isn't on the Storm 4.) bringing the c of g up n forward quite a bit. Making the chair very 'nose heavy.'
If I was heavier and as u can't adjust the c of g, I must admit, I think I would have had probs with this chair. It is 'obviously' for the lighter wheelchair user.

Maybe, as the site administrator, you should take down your post/review on the Storm 4, as that is now obsolete and also your comments on this post/review, just leaving the one's about wheelchairs in general.

[Burgerman]

I suspect you didn't read my posts above (or didn't understand them). Or look at the parts numbers for 2011 or 2014...

If you send me a side picture so I can see the relationship between wheels, seat is to evaluate C of G. Then I can update the comments to reflect this NEW chair. Still called Storm 4...
But frankly I expect it will be exactly the same nose heavy setup with a few minor fashion updates... Since anything else requires more expensive testing certification, and development work.

So. Send me a picture side on.

It drives so sweeetly too. At high speed the steering is so sensitive, immediate and precise and not mushy n time delayed as u remember it.

If that's true, its the first chair ever, from any manufacturer, in 15 years that does so. So I will believe this when I test one. And obviously right now I just don't.

Because current legislation, (which is mostly safety Nazi rubbish) doesn't even allow it. Its GOT to drive like a drunken sailor to comply with the mass of conflicting legislation and certification.

Does it still use the same old controller? Shark or DX2 (pm90)? If so then what you say seems rather unlikely. Never is 15 years have I found any chair that had the turn acceleration or deceleration parameters, at lo and hi speeds set to more than 40 percent. And that's what causes them to be hopeless. I doubt that Invacare changed that. Of course if you have never tested one set up correctly you wouldn't be any wiser.

However I will email Dynamic and find out for sure. And Invacare for an updated photo if there is really a new chair. There certainly wasn't one at the last mobility show in the summer.

[Sully]

Get a side view picture of the "NEW" model so the CG can at least be seen. The only pictures or models we have any opportunity to see are those posted. I don't know if Invacare is YET in operation as a manufacturer of DME in the USA. Or if the Order of Consent is still in effect.

It seems like a very long time for this order to still be in effect, The words written in the order do not seem insurmountable for a manufacturer.

[Lord Chatterley]

Nope! Similar, but that is not like my Storm 4!

I told u (n showed u) Invacare have completely re-designed it since those pics were taken. Why Invacare still use that type of sales bumff n those pics, god only knows!

It drives so sweeetly too. At high speed the steering is so sensitive, immediate and precise and not mushy n time delayed as u remember it.

U did test the type in these pics, which is now obsolete. (Cars change year by year. So a car model might be deemed as crap in 2011/12 but might be good in 2013/14!)

That link, still uses the old Storm 4 pics. It doesn't look like that now. Invacare have said that they need to update that bumff.

If u are a heavier wheelchair user, u will effect the c of g and the handling, quite dramatically, (unless it is adjustable. Which it isn't on the Storm 4.) bringing the c of g up n forward quite a bit. Making the chair very 'nose heavy.'
If I was heavier and as u can't adjust the c of g, I must admit, I think I would have had probs with this chair. It is 'obviously' for the lighter wheelchair user.

Maybe, as the site administrator, you should take down your post/review on the Storm 4, as that is now obsolete and also your comments on this post/review, just leaving the one's about wheelchairs in general.

Do you have a pic?

LC

[LROBBINS]

It looks to me like the batteries in that chair sit very far back with the seat moved forward to compensate for battery weight. If the user is a lightweight, the CG may not be so terribly far forward, but with someone as heavy as John (CG of a seated person is about 1.5" ahead of the belly button) it will shift a long way forward. It really does look like it needs a movable seat mount to adjust it for different weight users.
Ciao,
Lenny

[Burgerman]

Even with a skinny adult sat in one it still looks very front heavy.
It has quite large diameter caster wheels, designed to give a smoother ride outdoors (and hit stuff indoors) which they think partly offsets this. And its very long generally. Much longer than my chair for eg.

There was a test track with a few ramps and hills on a gymnasium floor when I was at the last mobility road show 2 years ago.
Even with lightweight users on the flat floor, if they try to decelerate and turn, one rear wheel slips and screeches.

It was probably the most front heavy of all the chairs there. And the exact opposite to my own.

http://www.invacare.co.uk/articles/invc ... -54-32.php watch the vid here. All these users are lightweights! There's a ton of weight on the front wheels. The battery cover at the rear actually has a controller and wiring in there. Batteries are still mostly on or in front of the axle. Now IF there really is a new chair, and they have mounted the seat a good few inches back, that would help! Then it will still be too nose heavy, like other chairs are, but not by as much. But the controls will also still have the default turn acc and dec in it.

When I asked sunrise why my original chair had too little motor compensation by miles, and forward acc set stupidly low, I was told it was to pass the "tip back" test... Where they have to accelerate full ahead on a specific ramp. They really don't have a clue! This is why most rear drive chairs are set up so stupidly nose heavy. And also why my chair flips me out with too much "gas"...

[sakima]

........(and hit stuff indoors)......
It doesn't!

..... if they try to decelerate and turn, one rear wheel slips and screeches. .....
I go up train and taxi ramps quite a bit and it def does not do that!

[url]http://www.invacare.co.uk/articles/invc-video-storm4--54-32.php[/url]
Old design!

..... And also why my chair flips me out with too much "gas".....
But I would think that the MAJORITY of wheelchair users, would prefer if all 4 wheels were on the deck when accelerating or going up slopes or carrying things on the back, that is why the majority of wheelchairs are manufactured with the main drive wheel (RWD) 'just' behind the seat, as 'flipping/tipping' is not a desired attribute.

A weightier user WILL have a dramatic effect on the c of g;

It looks to me like the batteries in that chair sit very far back with the seat moved forward to compensate for battery weight. If the user is a lightweight, the CG may not be so terribly far forward, but with someone as heavy as John (CG of a seated person is about 1.5" ahead of the belly button) it will shift a long way forward. It really does look like it needs a movable seat mount to adjust it for different weight users.
Ciao,
Lenny

[Burgerman]

You obviously did not read or maybe don't understand anything I wrote above. And just repeated the same thing again. Which just defies logic and basic physics.

I can also find no evidence of any new version of your chair. And I have looked and made a call to a rep that sells these things. And parts and user manuals are all up to date with common parts numbers since 2011 or before. Some were only re released in mid 2014. All parts numbers are directly comparable.

Please post a side on photo of your "new" chair.

[sakima]

YOU, obviously don't read. Which also defies logic and basic physics!(Altho I am not quite sure how physics plays a part in human nature!)

I have already put a comment about emailing Invacare and copied that email and the reply I received from their technical dept.

[Burgerman]

The email says nothing. Other than they build "custom" chairs. Custom to a mainstream manufacturer, isn't a one off. It means the same old chairs, same parts off a production line, with a few different peripheral options ticked on a form. That just means different seating options, or speed options, footrest choices, colours etc from the prescription form.

There's also no "new chair" as such, just some minor styling changes in 2011/2012. Coloured strips mostly. All the chassis, motor, suspension arm, controller, battery etc parts, are totally identical. Same part numbers check it yourself. Please tell me you get this??? Or this is all a waste of time.

>>> YOU, obviously don't read. Which also defies logic and basic physics!(Altho I am not quite sure how physics plays a part in human nature!)

Physics determines how everything works. Including people and every atom they are made of - including the brain - for what its worth. So it determines thought too! but theres another thread here somewhere for that already!

But what I was actually referring to by physics, was the CG position and casters being a huge 12 inches in diameter, some 2 inches bigger than any other powerchair apart from just one other. Way too big for indoors - and a real long chair,And with widely set, anti tips which also keep hitting everything inside my van and furniture like my bed legs in my house. They stick out way behind you.

I tried one of these storm 4 chairs that a friend brought round a while back. It is basically the same as yours is, give or take a few minor tick box options. See the other older thread I linked to. I mentioned this over there about 3 years ago. It was way too long then, and still is. And unwieldy, steered like an oil tanker, needed a 3 point turn inside my van for eg just to get into position as the casters and long anti tip arms and the chairs huge length compared to my own chair gets in the way.

Its frustrating to use in comparison. It couldn't turn in my bathroom for eg. Too long. And the programming made it more difficult still, as it doesn't go where you tell it to without frustration or slowing down. I cant work at that speed. And yours is exactly the same here since ALL stock production powerchairs from every manufacturer start off this way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ74uNWJAAg

Belly button + forwards a bit is the (small) users seated CG position - Meaning its really nose heavy. Way in front of the drive wheels. 10 to 15 percent weight is a good figure over the casters for my own chairs. 25% at the most for other normal users chairs that don't like wheelies. This chair looks like a massive 40 to 55 percent.

Notice also the very wide swinging 12 inch diameter casters (that by definition MUST end up wider than other chairs as they swivel about...) If I reverse on my vans ramp, the chair jams against the side rails on the ramp... Or hits door frames etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXVEpDeTsHQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZMQ2A8GHs8
The way the arms wobble and the armrest insecurity, means that it would really be un-drivable if it was programmed to respond properly as my chairs are anyway. If my arms did that I would crash! It wouldn't be workable. My joystick is very precise and responsive. A mm each way really matters!

You can deny it all you want but the above is true regardless. Here plainly for anyone to see. And there is no NEW model, unless you count the styling exercise recently released called X-plore added about 15 days ago with exposed springs etc. And its just the same chair over again with some marketing bull/styling changes added... Theres no substantial geometry or electronics changes at all. Or basic engineering changes.

This ones got TT added too for those that have less hand capability. And that makes it worse to drive for normal function users as it reduces feel or feedback.

http://doclibrary.invacare.fr/Office/Eu ... _STO4X_TTP

http://doclibrary.invacare.fr/Office/Eu ... m4X_UK.pdf last months released brochure for the latest tarted up Storm 4... Just the same CG and other parts/specs. Move along, nothing to see here!

[HiltonP]

John, I don't think you're going to "win" this one mate...

I do however share your experience, namely that absolutely nothing has changed in the manufacturing of Invacare's Storm chairs. You in fact are being quite generous in saying 15 years, I would say that nothing has changed in at least 20 years!

At any rate, my understanding is that Invacare has been legally barred from the production of motorised wheelchairs for at least the last 12 to 18 months, so they cannot claim to have anything new for 2014.

For me the REAL frustration with these companies is that they have the infrastructure and finances available to create a really superb motorised wheelchair, yet they knowingly choose to do the exact opposite. Such a missed opportunity. Makes you want to tear your hair out!