S646se - Full LITHIUM Pack Project - First Attempt

[expresso]

i got the whole top done - i am done for today - yes i found it so much easier now since i figure how best it works for me - one block at a time - get one end started and tap down the rest - all falls in place -

i can fit the pack either way - Neg going in first or Pos - now that you said that - i will double check how the main anderson from the chair is best angled so i dont wire it where i have to force it to bend - will do that when i work on the divider -

have to wait for help so next week sometime - another thing - if i remove the batteries next week from my chair to work on the divider etc, - is it OK to leave them off the chair - leaving the chair empty till i finish the pack -

is there any reason why this is not a good idea ? does the PM or chair need to have power to it to keep the settings or anything that may come to mind ? the slow part is now to finish it - i need to figure out the wiring and what i need - i need to make them once i do figure out how long etc,

and i have to wait for someone to flip it each time i need to work on it - top or bottom - etc, lets just say - the chair is empty with no power or batteries connected to it for 2 months - i am giving myself extra time - is that a problem -

Can i do that and then just slide the pack in when i am done - connect and go ?

[expresso]

just a though - Can you mix and match the cells in a pack ? example - the Cells are 15ah - 90ah pack - - the top 8 Cells if added are 15ah also and make it 105ah pack -

what if they dont work out for some reason but if using 12ah Cells for the top 8 - making it 102ah pack - any reason that is a problem ? can they be mixed that way - different Cells size - 12ah and 15ah -

just thinking because the 12ah cells are smaller in size - - i dont have any extra 12ah Cells - would have to purchase if anything - and wait again - but just curious if thats something that can be done if one wanted to -

[Scollard]

Looking good. When you get the top put on, have someone put the pack on its edge with the red row at the bottom. That way we should be able to wire it all up without having to flip it over.

Or you might want to do the busbars first. then set it on edge.

[expresso]

I am going to add the buss bars first on top tomorrow - have my friend flip it on Thursday or friday - when ever he is free - then i finish the buss bars on the bottom - then wait for him to flip it again - - but will get the chair ready - remove the batteries fix the divider first - then i can have him flip it and put in the tray - and in the chair to test fit it - - if i can get that done with him waiting a while - so he can take it back out and then lay it on the side -

i have to wait to last to do wiring or add the extra cells - in case i cant add them - then just finish it up as a 90ah - so i think if all goes well - another week - before i can continue to proceed -- wiring is last and i have to make them first - i am making a two part cable wiring for it -

this is the part i hate - i cant do it - and have to rely on others all the time for heavy stuff like this - its fine if i can find someone - but when i cant - i have to just wait or hire someone to do it - thats not good - i dont mind if i hire someone to help and finish it up period - but to just come and flip it - and leave - thats silly - but last resort -

the girls i have that work for me - they wont be able to do it - two or 3 of them - i know that for sure - sometimes i feel i am holding them stable instead them holding me i joke around that my PCA needs a PCA for herself -

[expresso]

Ok i tested if i can fit a 12 AWG wire down the side into the tray - it looks as if it can be done - but only one side - its tight - if it has to be done on both sides of the pack - wires going down to the bottom - that cant be done unless i cut one side of the tray off and then its free to do what ever -

I am hoping Scollard you tell me its only one side that needs the wires even one side - i pulled the lip to bend it more for room -

[Burgerman]

When done, I challenge you to do full distance in a day. 105Ah will double+ your range. If you use the addon as well, you should get 3.5x the range or more.

[Scollard]

Yep. Only on one side. Will put the balance wires on the opposite side but that should be no problem as they are thin. 12 AWG will be just fine to attach the 7th row.

Black or red row at the back of the chair?

Looking at the chair from the back, what side does the Anderson connector go on and what side the charger cable?

You need to make up 4 cables for the bottom of the pack. Make them all 16-18 inches long and you will cut them to the proper length when you install the 7th row. These 4 cables need a ring terminal on one side only so far. You will install them on the 1,3,5,7 rows of the busbars on the bottom of the pack. Remember the bottom rows are labeled 1,3,5,7 and the top is 5 rows labeled 0,2,4,6,8. Just like the add on.

[expresso]

i dont know yet what color is going in the chair first - black or red - i need to first take the chair apart - battery out - divider raised up if i can and will look at the chairs Main Connector to see how it sits - so i can make my cable to snap in with out have to turn to force it fit

right now - i dont know which end is going in first -

the Chairs Main anderson is on the left side - - i was first thinking of putting everything on the left side also - charge cable and balance wires etc, plus the anderson going to the chair main power

and on the right side - add the Extra cable with Anderson for the ADD ON if i want to use one day -

its best to share the sides where all the wiring will go ? so its not all on the same side and under the same Cell bolt ?

i can add the charge cable on either side - but to move forward i first have to figure out what which Cells are going in first -

to keep it the same way as the ADD ON - that would mean the Black Cells going in first -

i guess either way should be fine - i can give you a better idea once i get in the chair - wont be till next week sometime -

[Burgerman]

Just be really really sure that every bolt is tight. Theres a lot, and one loose one causes havoc and is hard to fix later. Check both ends at least 3 times, mark with a marker pen as you go. Every time I see a problem it is inevitably a loose bolt...

[expresso]

from this measure it looks like it is going to fit - i measure this at 9 inches high but its not in the tray which will raise it a bit higher once inside the tray also -

and if i manage to raise the divider even a half a inch - i am thinking its going to be fine at 105ah -

[expresso]

When done, I challenge you to do full distance in a day. 105Ah will double+ your range. If you use the addon as well, you should get 3.5x the range or more.

thats insane distance - compared to Lead - i wanted to cross over the GWB - into NJ - from NY - i got within 10 blocks from the GWB - with LEAD alone and turned back - longest trip i took - wasnt sure if i make it back - i wasnt going to cross it when - i was just riding down the West side of the water in parks etc,

i reached the end the park - no more road - all dirt which leads to under the Bridge - i had to get out of the park to continue - i just turned back - this was with the brand new set of PC1500 last summer -

with the 105ah - i cant see not being able to make it over the GWB into NJ - and back - and should still have alot of Ah left in the pack i think

[expresso]

Just be really really sure that every bolt is tight. Theres a lot, and one loose one causes havoc and is hard to fix later. Check both ends at least 3 times, mark with a marker pen as you go. Every time I see a problem it is inevitably a loose bolt...

yes thats for sure - i am very careful with that - i speak out loud also when doing it and double checking - i will be adding and removing them a few times till i get the correct spot where the wires go before locktite it down once and for all

i do it one cell at a time - remove one screw - do it - then next screw - takes time - but i am sure its done or two a time - but not more -

[expresso]

Yep. Only on one side. Will put the balance wires on the opposite side but that should be no problem as they are thin. 12 AWG will be just fine to attach the 7th row.

Black or red row at the back of the chair?

Looking at the chair from the back, what side does the Anderson connector go on and what side the charger cable?

You need to make up 4 cables for the bottom of the pack. Make them all 16-18 inches long and you will cut them to the proper length when you install the 7th row. These 4 cables need a ring terminal on one side only so far. You will install them on the 1,3,5,7 rows of the busbars on the bottom of the pack. Remember the bottom rows are labeled 1,3,5,7 and the top is 5 rows labeled 0,2,4,6,8. Just like the add on.

yes i will add the buss bars and label the top tomorrow - same way - Starting with Neg. for 0 going across - will post pics again to make sure -

the balance wires can be added on any Cell within the correct group ? as to not have so many rings under one Cell screw ? depending on where i put the balance wires - i have to cut so its not too short

i am figuring 1 foot and half of the balance wire on the battery end - and the other half for the charge cable subd end - 3 feet total cable should be more than enough slack

[expresso]

When done, I challenge you to do full distance in a day. 105Ah will double+ your range. If you use the addon as well, you should get 3.5x the range or more.

whats good about doing this chair is my Rnet can tell me the Miles - so i will know how many miles i did - and when i recharge i can see how much i put back to figure out how much i had left etc,

then i can use my Rnet miles to decide when its enough and have to turn back - i have to be able to do at least 30 real miles with this -

[Burgerman]

whats good about doing this chair is my Rnet can tell me the Miles

Nope!

Its a guess.
It presumes a certain speed or rather wheel RPM at full stick. A NUMBER someone has programmed into it at some point. That is far from accurate. It presumes a speed at half stick is half of this too. Etc. It just shows max speed at full stick.
If for eg you doubled the volts you would go twice as fast, but it will show the same 6.2mph or whatever.

So it depends on load, like hills, and on actual wheel diameter or pressure, and on actual battery voltage. You will increase actual speed but not the speed displayed when on lithium for eg.. Meaning the distance (speed / time) will read lower than it should on lithium.

You will also lose less speed under load than lead too. The display will not show that. And the battery is 50lb lighter so actual load is decreased all day long. So you will both travel faster, and further than the same display would show on the same trip with a lead battery.

GPS is accurate. It knows where you have been to within half a meter...

[expresso]

i guess i will find out - if the MPH show over 8.5 mph or stays there - i can use the GPS on the phone - also to compare - the miles i mean the distance -

it tells me the distance in how many mile i traveled and its pretty accurate i think with the distance - i will use GPS also -

should i put a sheet of rubber or something between the Cells on the Top Row ? instead of just laying it on top of the orange blocks - i was thinking of taping a sheet of rubber on that top Row of cells - between them and maybe on top also or just the Tape there -

Can i leave the rest of the pack as it is once in the chair in the tray - or should i cover around it maybe to protect it from what ever dirt -etc, ?

[expresso]

When done, I challenge you to do full distance in a day. 105Ah will double+ your range. If you use the addon as well, you should get 3.5x the range or more.

thanks - feeling good about this as it goes - seems to be falling into place as planned so far - cross fingers -

[Scollard]

Yes, if possible put a thin sheet of rubber between the 7th row and the top of the big pack.

[Burgerman]

Easy to use a square car foot mat. £1.

[expresso]

ok - this is what i have now - if this isnt good - then i can get the car floor mat - good ideas -

http://www.amazon.com/Styrene-Butadiene ... ge_o03_s00

http://www.amazon.com/LASCO-02-1048E-Ru ... ge_o03_s00


i may have to tape a few these together to make it wide enough - will see how it fits - - do i have to cover the whole area of the 90ah pack on top - or at least just where the 7th row would sit on ?

will test with what i have first

i got the buss bars on the top only - started to make some cables - ran out of the 18- 22 awg rings for the balance wires - i ruined a few of them - when going to Crimp - for some reason - this time we had a little harder time to crimp those 22awg wires - i am using a Rachet type - and works great for most part - just the smaller wires - its a little tricky - now either something we are doing wrong during the crimping -

i always check after each crimp - i have her pull on it till i am satisfied thats its good - then heatshrink the seal - more than a few - didnt work out - so i ran out - just needed one more to finish it - i should have gotten a few packs - - the larger wires are fine - they crimp good and hold - 12 - 10 AWG - rings -

hopefully all should be good -

[expresso]

those are the 4 wires for the 7th row - rings on one end - i made it 18 inches long - more than enough for sure -

i did the balance wires also - that go to the pack - and the charge wires that go to the pack one end - rings 12 awg

will solder those to the XT90 tomorrow - giving myself some slack - with the cable length - i also made the ADD ON Cable for the other side - used 10 AWG wire with the copper rings - crimped and soldered those -

have to just add the XT 90 end there also - which i hope i can solder 10 AWG there - those have lay on the cup to solder it - they are too thick to fit inside - anything over 14 awg is too thick - but they say you can use 10 AWG on those XT90
and 12 AWG on XT60 - which to me are too too small of a connector -

i will use XT90 only - thats even small but fits nicely and can snake under frame in the battery box from top of the divider - should be neat and out of the way - i hope -

[expresso]

Yes, if possible put a thin sheet of rubber between the 7th row and the top of the big pack.

yes i will try what i have and see how that fits - its not one large mat - but i cant duct tape them together - will post pics - to see what you think -

also Scollard - if i install the pack in the chair with the NEG Black side going in first - meaning it will be inside all the way towards the front of the chair - the Neg. - O on the pack -

if i install it that way - 0 2 4 6 8 would be on the Right side of the Chair - i can then install the charge cable on the same side and the main leads to the Chair power anderson there also - all on the same side ?

then the LEFT side i can install the ADD ON Cable and the 4 Wires going down to 1 3 5 7 ?

is this how you planned it out for me - ?

thanks

[steves1977uk]

i have her pull on it

Pull on what???

Steve

[Scollard]

Yes Expresso. Exactly what I was thinking. Add-on cable and 7th row bottom wires on one side and balance wires, charge wires and chair power on the other.

You see how the 7th row is going to connect now. The wires from the bottom will connect to the bottom of the 7th row and you will need 5 short wires to connect the tops.

Remember when you flip the pack to busbar up the bottom you can now short circuit the battery.

You should probably put on the balance wires and completely loctite the bottom of the large pack, then drop it into the tray and complete all the remaining wiring. You can put the charge wires and the chair wires anywhere along the rows labeled 0 and 8. So you could actually put then under the 7th row if you hook them up before adding the 7th row.

You don't have to completely cover the top with rubber. It would just be safer to have a rubber barrier between the 7th row and the large pack. You only need it big enough to do one side of the 7th row.

[expresso]

Yes Expresso. Exactly what I was thinking. Add-on cable and 7th row bottom wires on one side and balance wires, charge wires and chair power on the other.

You see how the 7th row is going to connect now. The wires from the bottom will connect to the bottom of the 7th row and you will need 5 short wires to connect the tops.

Remember when you flip the pack to busbar up the bottom you can now short circuit the battery.

You should probably put on the balance wires and completely loctite the bottom of the large pack, then drop it into the tray and complete all the remaining wiring. You can put the charge wires and the chair wires anywhere along the rows labeled 0 and 8. So you could actually put then under the 7th row if you hook them up before adding the 7th row.

You don't have to completely cover the top with rubber. It would just be safer to have a rubber barrier between the 7th row and the large pack. You only need it big enough to do one side of the 7th row.

Yes i will be careful now - i already had a short experince - with the ADD ON - - i am still not sure 100% how the 7th row will be connected - - first the 7th row of cells - they dont need any bus bars at all between them ?

the 4 wires i made to run on the bottom - i would put one wire where i have labeled 1 - next 3 and 5 and 7 - those are where i put the 4 wires on the bottom - ? - then where on the 7th row do they go - - i kinda of see it - but not really sure -

i am not going to guess either - the 7th row would lay on top with the Neg. Black Cells on the left side to match the Pack on the bottom Neg. Cell which is 0 -

what i picture is - if i layed that 7th row the same as the others making it 7 wide instead of 6 -- thats how it has to be connected - just has to be laying on top instead - after that i am lost on the connecting them correctly -

so let me finish up the bottom - locktite it - cap it - etc, - drop it in the tray - done - - then we figure out the top - but tell me for sure if i add those wires going to the bottom to the numbers 1 3 5 7 -

thanks -

[expresso]

i guess i am not going to test fit this pack - and just make it 105ah - - and hope it fits or have to make it fit if the total size is at most 9 1/2 inches high - i say 99% sure it will fit -

[expresso]

i have her pull on it

Pull on what???

Steve

[Scollard]

It will be 9" high, or a sliver more.

Yes connect the balance wires 1,3,5,7 and the four 7th row wires to 1,3,5,7 as well.

Yes, you need to busbar the 7th row. There will be four 2 hole busbars making rows 1,3,5,7 on the bottom. That is where the 4 long wires will attach. and there will be three 2 hole busbars on the top making rows 2,4,6. Rows 0 and 8 are just the single battery tops, black for 0 and red for 8. You will use 5 short wires to connect the top of the 7th row to the top of the big pack.

[expresso]

It will be 9" high, or a sliver more.

Yes connect the balance wires 1,3,5,7 and the four 7th row wires to 1,3,5,7 as well.

Yes, you need to busbar the 7th row. There will be four 2 hole busbars making rows 1,3,5,7 on the bottom. That is where the 4 long wires will attach. and there will be three 2 hole busbars on the top making rows 2,4,6. Rows 0 and 8 are just the single battery tops, black for 0 and red for 8. You will use 5 short wires to connect the top of the 7th row to the top of the big pack.

I just figured that out right now - i was looking it over and over and of course - its just an extension of the pack - - instead of on the side - its on the top - good thing i looked it over better - i almost made a mistake - the Cells i put in the Top 7th row - i just put them in there - i didnt realize at the time - i had to match the Cell number to the correct group - and there werent matched - would have thrown off the balancing -

i fixed it correctly now - 0 is Row 1 for me going across to Roll 8 - Cell 43 is the first on the 7th row going to 0 - whow i almost screwed that up - the wires on top will be very short - not much wire between those rings -

ok i got that part now - i may have it flipped tomorrow - and can finish the bottom over the weekend for sure - -


the other thing is - i will use 0 Neg and 8 pos will connect the Anderson there for the Chair main power connection -

i will use the same spot to connect the top cell also - - thats two rings on the same spot screw - then the balance wires - - then would make 3 rings under the screw for 0 and 8 - is that too much to add under one screw ?

can i add the balance wires on any screw along the same line - dosnt have to be the very first screw on the line or group ?

i then have to add the Charge leads also - another set or Rings - which i planned to add to the Ends also 0 and 8 - but now if its too many rings under one screw - can i also add the charge rings on another screw also along the line - -

i figure i add the charge leads and balance lead for 0 and 8 one screw down - can keep all the balance leads one screw down along the pack - the first screws i can use for the chair mains and the Cells on top -

that is Ok ?

[Scollard]

Send a picture of the top and bottom of the 7th row. We need to be very sure of it before you hook it up.

Here's what I suggest. On the 7th row in position 0 and position 8 put the short wire to connect the 7th row to the big pack + the charge wires + the chair wires. That is 3 terminals under the screw which is the equivalent of 2 busbars and one terminal. We know that combination is OK. Then on the first row of the big pack add the balance wires 0,2,4,6,8. Or you could put the charger wires or chair wires in that first row as well in position 0 and 8 and you would have 1 busbar + 2 terminals. All is doable with the existing hardware.